Apis mellifera mellifera(AMM) honey bees

[Jon]

Michael Haberl and Diethard Tautz wrote:
Frequencies of different subfamilies differed significantly and ranged from 3.8% to 27.3%.

However, the analyses of progeny samples taken 12 months apart do not allow us to exclude moderate fluctuations of subfamily frequencies in the long-term.

We estimate the effect of sperm clumping to be less than 6%.

These statement imply that specific dominant characteristics can appear in specific periods of time, if not continuously, which would confirm the validity of many observations of beekeepers over the years.
How long is a piece of string?
Best regards
Eric

I don't think Tautz's statement implies this at all. He uses the term 'moderate fluctuations' and does not imply at all that the percentages of the various worker sub families change drastically.

What he is mainly saying here is that if a queen mates with 10 drones, each one contributes differing amounts of sperm, rather than a uniform 10% each. One drone might contribute 25% of the sperm ie. contribute genetic material to 25% of the workers in the colony whereas another drone might only contribute a couple of percent. I agree with Rosie that the study quoted above is pretty compelling with regard to disproving the myth of drone sperm being stored in discrete packages in the spermatheca.

My question is - despite the seemingly conclusive finding of Collin’s in vitro research, did his team ever do DNA testing

Tautz

Paternity was determined by analysis of three polymorphic microsatellite loci, leading to the conclusion that the queen had mated with seven males.

Tautz certainly used dna testing

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
Eric wrote:
Many thanks for your references Alex. I am on a keen learning curve here.
I am conceding nothing unless I can be shown hard copy proof positive of field test results.
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Micheal Halberl and Diethart Tautz wrote: (Thanks for that Gavin!)
Sperm usage was investigated in a naturally mated honey bee queen. We collected worker progeny arising from eggs that were laid sequentially during three sampling periods. Paternity was determined by analysis of three polymorphic microsatellite loci, leading to the conclusion that the queen had mated with seven males
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Game Set and Match!
I take the point that what Collins et al and Micheal Halberl and Diethart Tautz proved will be the general rule but by only checking the progeny of one queen albeit over three sampling periods: the possibility of exceptions to the rule over time (which always occur!) cannot be ruled out, which would substantiate the already mooted beekeeper observations over the years.
I am big enough to learn and concede. It is a great pity that there are some who when confounded just walk away from an issue - ignoring the fact that disinformation may have occurred on their part to the detriment of folk who have come to rely on them – this is a betrayal of trust and quite reprehensible!
Jon and Gavin both perpetrated this act when they abruptly walked off the field when confronted with their erroneous directions for calculating the oxalic acid solution and the trickle treatment dosage in the “oxalic acid” thread. The information was wrong on all counts. Try it with and without considering the water content of the oxalic acid dihydrate crystals, weight for weight!
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Jon/ Gavin wrote:
This states that 3.2% is a good strength for your average colony which is what you get with the ratio I quoted in the post above, 7.5, 100g, 100g.

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Jon wrote:
The standard treatment is 5ml per seam irrespective if it is a double or single brood colony.
It is not necessary to separate the two boxes in a double brood colony.
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The 5 ml trickle has to be carried out for each occupied comb space in a double brood box situation. I quoted Ian Craig’s wintering method of 8 frames/brood box. Jon’s recommended procedure would have Ian’s bees underdosed by some 35mls: A potentially dangerous situation if all 14 bee spaces are occupied. In Ian’s system this is a distinct possibility.
Eric

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[Jon]

This states that 3.2% is a good strength for your average colony which is what you get with the ratio I quoted in the post above, 7.5, 100g, 100g.

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Jon wrote:
The standard treatment is 5ml per seam irrespective if it is a double or single brood colony.
It is not necessary to separate the two boxes in a double brood colony.
.................................................. ..
The 5 ml trickle has to be carried out for each occupied comb space in a double brood box situation. I quoted Ian Craig’s wintering method of 8 frames/brood box. Jon’s recommended procedure would have Ian’s bees underdosed by some 35mls: A potentially dangerous situation if all 14 bee spaces are occupied. In Ian’s system this is a distinct possibility.
Eric..

Eric.
If you want to follow your own calculations you are free to do so but don't encourage others to do this.

I quote here from the back of the box of 500g of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate supplied by Thorne who as you may know are a large beekeeping supply company in the UK.

Preparation: Mix 1 litre water with 1k sugar. Add 75g oxalic acid dihydrate (which contains 71.4% oxalic acid). The resulting solution will provide 3.2% oxalic acid. This should be enough to treat 25 hives.

There are far too many beekeepers who either ignore, or are unaware of current best practice with regard to Oxalic acid strengths and dosages.
Most of my colonies need about 30ml based on the number of seams. I don't think this is unusual at all for AMM but if your experience is with more prolific or hybrid types of bee you may need the full 50ml. 50ml is the recommended maximum even for a double brood box colony.
My practice (and calculations) follow all the published guidelines for mixing and applying Oxalic acid.
I prefer published research to personal calculations as the dosages have been trialled for years over many colonies.
Do some wider reading if you don't believe me. It's all online.

Gav. Surely this should be moved to an Oxalic acid thread.