A link to the above article has appeared on the Orkney Beekeepers website although it wasn't posted by Doris I'm sure she will be along shortly.
http://markavery.info/2012/07/09/gue...rss&utm_medium
A link to the above article has appeared on the Orkney Beekeepers website although it wasn't posted by Doris I'm sure she will be along shortly.
http://markavery.info/2012/07/09/gue...rss&utm_medium
Thanks for posting this, Lindsay, yes, it's a very good article.
Here a short taster:
Quote:
In 1991, Bayer CropScience introduced a new type of insecticide into the US; imidacloprid, the first member of a group http://markavery.info/wp-content/upl...b2-300x271.jpgnow known as the neonicotinoids. Bayer Scientist Abbink certified that: “imidacloprid is the first highly effective insecticide whose mode of action has been found to derive from almost complete and virtually irreversible blockage of post synaptic nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) in the central nervous system (CNS) of insects.” Imidacloprid differed from conventional spray pesticides in that it could be used as seed dressings or soil treatments. When used as a seed dressing the insecticide will migrate from the stem to the leaf tips, and eventually into the flowers and pollen. Bees, bumblebees, hoverflies and butterflies that collect contaminated pollen or nectar from the crop will ingest a small dose of the toxin, but any insect that feeds on the crop will eventually die. ...
Hi Lindsay.
That will be the demise some of us call as a 3 - 4 fold increase in colony numbers in the Uk in the past few years!!!
But I guess that is just another inconvenient fact.
This is the usual hand-wringing, emotional, unsubstantiated, campaigning stuff.
Shall we try another quote?
OK then, nice to see that sorted. Varroa and viruses aren't a problem, just a symptom. If it wasn't for neonics then Varroa wouldn't be a problem, it is just the canary in the coalmine or something and we'd all be living in harmony. Utter bollocks, and typical of the wooly thinking going round (and round and round) some circles. Were these poor naive folk actually fed this garbage during their trip to Orkney or did they pick it up elsewhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by That campaigning blog thing
So our bees attract varroa because they've been in contact with pesticides? Strange conclusion.
I have read the whole article, by the way.
If the situation is as bad as they suggest then I don't understand why we, here, aren't noticing the decline in bumble bees and other insects, and why plenty of beekeepers I know are more than happy to drive several miles to take their bees to fields of oil seed rape and other forage crops grown by arable farmers.
My bees were last exposed to neonics about 4 years ago. When can I look forward to all the mites dying?
Steve
That strange, My colonies were checked eg brood, wax and bees by Keele University for pesticides and any other chemicals that may be in the hives and the results came back. There were no pesticides detected. But I am certain those wee red things I keep seeing are varroa.
Oh No! That means that Keele's been bought off as well. We're all doomed.
Steve
Shhh, guys! You'll upset Doris who, by now, will be convinced that you don't need to keep Varroa out of Orkney after all, just the neonics.
On Radio Scotland yesterday the journalist said that bumble bees had halved in number and it was all down to a virus. Actually, come to think of it, maybe she was mixing up long-term established honeybee declines and recent work on DWV, but you do get the impression that with bees truth just doesn't matter any more. Make up stuff and push it out there, no-one will mind.
Lindsay, umm, thanks for posting! Maybe you could now do the people of Orkney a favour and link on the Orkney Yahoo site to the assessment here of the Mason/Thomas fantasy? You can even continue to sit on the fence if you like!
Here's some more of that quality blog that Doris loves so much.
I presume that they are trying to say that the neonics caused the virulence of both Varroa and the bat pathogen? Or was it that CCD stopped bats navigating home because they all got dizzy? Maybe that the bat fungus jumped to bees (neonic-aided, of course) and that was the real cause of CCD? I'm confused, but I suspect that our blogging duo are too. All goes to show what a difficult multifactorial world we live in, when amounts of toxin that just can't be detected have amazingly potent effects not when the bees are really exposed but 4-5 bee generations later.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mason and Thomas fantasy bloggers
Why not the Black Death too? OK, it started in Europe back in 1348 but I'm sure some enterprising environmentalist can make a link to modern pesticides somehow. Bayer's predecessors must have been around then, surely?
The blog makes much of the reputed splat-o-meter data. If there is real data of that type. They also laud the biodiversity remaining on Orkney. I do too. The reason should be blindingly obvious. We've wrecked much of the habitat that once existed in farming areas. The plough, the bulldozer, the herbicides, the drainage works, the fertilisers. Drive through parts of eastern England and there is little left for wildlife. Even parts of the Carse of Gowrie. But here and there there are oases of habitat like there used to be. My favourited orchard (in a sustainably managed estate but with conventional agriculture and neonic-laced OSR nearby) has butterflies, rare lichens, orchids, other flowers, flies (damn those clegs - it has more than its fair share!), woodpeckers, even a nightjar recently. It is just big enough to sustain populations of these things. We need a much more level-headed approach to conserving and expanding these remaining treasures, and not the fantasy world inhabited by some of those who get their words all over the beekeeping press, the mainstream press, the blogosphere, the media.
I think the bee forage must have been fantastic in the 1920's judging by colony density in some apiaries from books of that time.
Aberdeen beekeeping association was huge, bigger than the whole SBA now
Honey yields were equally impressive
Perhaps those days will return but it's unlikely
It's not that farmers are less bee friendly than in the halcyon days of beekeeping.
It's that the standard mixed arable farming used in the 1940's suited the bees better
In fact pesticides used at that time could have devastating effects on the environment and bees.
Subsidies are responsible for things like oil seed rape and profit margins for potatoes and grain
Hence the farms around me rotate those 3 crops endlessly.
All these have applications of fungicide, pesticide, or seed dressings, but on the whole they are less environmentally damaging and safer for bees
I seem to remember reading -from a couple of different sources one of which may have been Sims that those halcyon days of British beekeeping (if they truly were such) during the late twenties and thirties were, to a large degree, the result of the collapsing economy resulting in small farms and larger small-holdings being abandoned and effectively being allowed to run wild.
Can I recommend that anyone who enjoys reading books about beekeeping should get themselves a copy (I believe there's now a reprint/print on demand copy available) of 'Bees Are My Business' by Harry Whitcombe. Other than being a great story in it's own right it has an interesting chapter on his fight with (from memory) the large scale tomato growers who were detroying colonies by the hundred with their insecticides. -There's also a nice piece about his efforts to convince many growers about the benefit of using bees for polination; where they'd previously looked upon bees collecting pollen and nectar as being detrimental to their crops. Dated, but still a good read.
To be quite honest Gavin I’m not really bothered about neonicotinoids. As far as the environment is concerned I like to keep things simple. If it’s bug life and it can’t be squashed or swotted I will spray it. If it’s plant life and it can’t be cut with a lawnmower or strimmed I will spray it. I like nothing better than being let loose with Glyphosate although nowadays it’s under the watchful eye of my other half (I was a bit to enthusiastic in the past).
A retired chemist once told me how he used to use cyanide to kill wasps. I’m not advocating that we go back to those days.
As long as it does what it says on the tin then I will happily use modern pesticides and herbicides.
Mmm, the halcyon days of DDT, derris and home-made concoctions of rhubarb leaves and cigarette ends.
Things are quite expensive these days, and if this site is anything to go by, it looks as if some people still use some of these home-made biocides. It's because they're 'natural', even though using unregulated, unlicensed, untested and un-measured home-made stuff is, apparently, against the rules.
Isn't it telling that Lindsay has waited all this time to reveal his own philosophy in his garden? Times have changed when folk behaving in the way the majority of gardeners do are inhibited from talking about it - then criticised like this.
In defence of Lindsay, his perspective isn't limited, it is just different. In fact it is mainstream. Too bad if you and Doris don't like it, John. Get over it, move on, and if you are personally active in the Orkney beekeepers group, leave it at home. I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi. This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.
[QUOTE=I'm also going to ask you to leave at home any more critical comments directed at Lindsay that you might think of bringing to SBAi. This isn't the place for it and I doubt that anywhere is.[/QUOTE]
Gavin, given the language used on the forum when contrary points of view are debated John's comments above are positively mild mannered.
What exactly constitutes a ‘critical comment’ that is unsatisfactory?
Lindsay has conspicuously avoided getting drawn in to these disputes until now. I read his post at frustration with the aggressively expressed view dominating the output from Orkney. The truth is that they both have the right - legal and moral - to manage their land in the way they wish.
John's reply could have been the start of a nasty exchange between people from one small community and one even smaller beekeeping community. I'm trying to prevent that. I'm reacting to someone telling a forum member who avoids conflict and has stayed outside these debates that he seems proud of his limited perspective. There is nothing limited about Lindsay's perspective, it is just different from John's.
If you have issues with the way I reacted to the blog by Mason and Thomas, I stand by my comments that they are bonkers and the content is fantasy. There is no way that is a sensible message to give people on bees and beekeeping. I'm proud of the relatively informed debate on here, and when someone (Doris, in this case) is so enthusiastic about something so flawed, I'm going to challenge that strongly. When that someone has accused me personally of being paid for my interventions and not properly apologised for that, sprayed spam all over the forum, and taken her accusations to other bee fora internationally, I will not be holding back.
Hi guy's let's not be too grumpy with one another
After all we want to read different viewpoints or we wouldn't come to the forum.
Were not here for a slugfest are we :)
Here's something I clipped from elsewhere it was posted in 2009
We are trying to convert a farm in West Wales/Carmarthen, to be permaculture/organic and would love to keep bees – is there somewhere in our area we can learn more? Are varroa or CCD a problem here?
The poster was on a site concerned with Organic Beekeeping, specifically the Warre hive, which I have been reading about since Nellie mentioned under supering or nadiring I think its called, sorry about the spelling
(the spellchecker suggested "marinading" ) can't see that working myself :)
Now what is the greater threat, someone growing oil seed rape or the next door beekeeper setting up half a dozen warre hives without any idea of bee diseases (other than what they read in the papers about varroa and CCD) and believing that the solution to bee disease is a type of hive,
They're in your back yard Nellie flush them out Lol!
Strangely no-one on that site suggested joining a local association or reading a normal bee book plenty suggestions for 17th and 18th century ones though :)
I've been a mostly-organic gardener all my life but have on occasions resorted to glyphosate and am currently using a 'normal' tomato feed in my home-made (organic) growbags because there was nothing else available at the ironmongers and the comfrey has vanished (deer?). I use slug pellets in the greenhouse because otherwise I'd lose everything in there. I don't use pesticides, mostly because I don't have the time or feel the need to do so and am quite happy to buy veg if a crop fails. Commercial growers don't have this luxury; they need to protect their livelihood. If as a family we ate only organically-produced food our diet would be (a) very restricted (b) limited in quantity due to the expense. Yes, it would be lovely to get back to Eden, with no pests or diseases and no thorns and thistles either (and no midges ... bliss!), but the way's been barred since Adam and Eve blew it and we poor humans have to muddle along as best we can in the meantime. If that includes GM crops and neonics, in the absence of anything better, so be it.
Possibly because this forum is for everyone, not just the organic gardeners amongst us? By all means, lambast a pesticide/herbicide user on a 'bio' forum but this is meant to be a friendly place where folk can chat about bees and beekeeping and get balanced advice rather than a soapbox for individual preferences.
It would be just as wrong for me to post threads along the lines of, 'lady beekeepers are better for bees because ...'
Even though we are [dons tin hat and waits for a furious response from the lads ...] ;)
Well said Trog.
I could get up on a soap box about a lot of things but this is not the place. And I am an organic gardener who does not use either roundup or slug pellets!
The irritating thing is that each and every one of us knows that pesticides can cause great harm to bees but the debate has been hijacked with regard to one family of pesticides - neonicotinoids.
There is a vast body of research out there for anyone who cares to browse it and the huge majority of published papers indicate that at field realistic levels this family of pesticides causes little or no harm to bees. There are a couple of papers which flag up some dangers out of many hundreds published. Nosema interactions is one possible worry area. Planter dust when maize is sown is another.
The stuff about oil seed rape and queen problems is abject nonsense without a shred of evidence as per usual.
From the responses so far it seems that it's ok for a beekeeper to spray stuff willy-nilly about his own garden, advertise his actions, be supported by admin and other 'mainstream' supporters, but ungallant of a fellow islander, who farms organically. has Great Yellows on his land etc to suggest that sometimes it's necessary to think beyond the label on the tin!
If this is not the place for Scottish beekeepers to argue about stuff that might threaten our bees, where else is?
I personally don't just rant against neonics. My own experience demonstrates that there are cleverer ways of operating than killing every last living thing on your land that you can't sell. Most of those beasties are beneficial, and if they're not you should probably think why not and change your system rather them zapping them.
Hello John first of all I’m not offended by any comments posted by you or Doris. Our paths do cross occasionally and we have attended bee meetings in each other’s homes.
I’m not proud of using pesticides and herbicides I’m just being practical. Walk into any garden centre and you will see shelves full of the stuff, do you think I’m the only person out there using them. Our flower and vegetable patch is guarded by my partner and is off limits to me but if something needs spraying I have no qualms about doing it.
I first took an interest in beekeeping in the late seventies and only acquired my first hive after numerous visits to my mentor’s apiary. In those days the general perception of beekeepers was that they were grumpy old men or eccentric spinsters, being in my late teens I thought I broke the mould. In reality most of today’s long term beekeepers probably got started the same way as me. There were no rules saying you had to love the planet.
My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty something’s or tree huggers out to save the planet. I think most of the thirty something’s will be using their expensive well-insulated Beehaus’s as wine coolers in a few years time. As for the tree huggers the less said about them the better but don’t expect me to bang the neonicotinoid drum.
I keep bees because I like honey and find them interesting.
Lindsay
P.S. John until your great yellows can fly the 15 plus miles to my garden you should have no problems from me.
Give it a rest John. This is a beekeeping forum. Folk are welcome here if they use Nationals, Smiths, Langstroths, Polyhives, Warres, TBHs, Concrete block hives, tree trunk hives, straw skeps or folded recycled election propaganda. They can keep Buckfasts, Italians, Carnies, Caucasians, or ultra-pure Scottish native blacks. They can welcome or eschew all the latest chemical crutches for beekeeping. They can even support RNAi methods in beekeeping if they like. GM bees (not my cup of tea), Africanised bees, stingless bees. They can keep bees for fun, for honey, for profit, for loss, to pollinate their crops, for stinging therapy, or just to provide natural fertiliser for the garden. They can choose whatever means of transport they wish, they can vote for whatever political party takes their fancy. Sexual orientation not an issue. Religion. Believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden, little green men, alien abduction, chemtrails even. Gardening methodologies and philosophy. All OK with us .... until anyone tries ramming their own ideas down someone else's throat. *That* is an issue. So please, give it a rest.
G.
Thank you.
I am getting my own colony this week coming, after getting into beekeeping for general environmental / ecological reasons & a general interest in Nature. I am 40 in Sept, damn 👎 looks like I just possibly fit your stereotype in both classes!! 😉Quote:
My perception of most of the people who have recently jumped on the beekeeping bandwagon is that they are trendy thirty something’s or tree huggers out to save the planet.
I do admire your honesty, even if I don't choose to apply the same methods! 👏
Not 40 until January and never been accused of being trendy :D Do I have to get a beehaus? I really don't want one.
This section of the forum is Beekeeping and the Environment. This is my field of interst.
I have two hives on my farm, I have made and fixed Smith's and KTBs. We also have several species of bumblebees. Our AMM's have been carefully bred and protected for many generations. We are free of varroa, and most other threats except, I suppose, our latitude.
I will not 'give it a rest'. If I think I have something to say, I'll say it. If you don't like it , or can't manage it, just stay out of it.
I think it's a shame that there have been so many threads recently which have taken a rather agressive tone due to differing views with regards to the neonics debate.
When a man can echo Kirk Webster by writing the following...
he needs to be recognized as a thinker which means, to me, that he's probably got a lot of insights which are worth listenng to. The problem is the way that people are tending to present their arguments; each camp taking unmovable positions when no one actually knows for certain -there would be no debate if absolute conclusive proof was available.
OK, I personally tend to believe that there are far greater dangers to the bees than are being addressed in this debate but I stand by what I've written before with regards to keeping an open mind untill such time as those who are cleverer than myself have presented their conclusive proof one way or another -even then, varroa and nosema will still be the major contributing factors to any general downturn (supposed or real) in bee health. The problem is that I'm starting to feel alienated from both camps because of the way some of the information is being presented not only here but on other forums too.
You might not like this, but I currently administer this forum. That means that either myself or my wee helpers will intervene from time to time, and if your zeal causes you to get too personal then we will not just advise you against it but act to stop you. Come on here to talk beekeeping and be respectful of others' views and you will be made welcome.
If you prefer a forum where unquestioning acceptance of the more extreme end of the pro-organic spectrum holds sway and the administrator and moderators have exactly the views you seem to want from those helping run communities of beekeepers, then I'm sure that you know Phil Chandler's site.
Oh yes, Prakel, Dadants are in too. Dadants in England, no problem. Anyone, anywhere, willing to contribute to beekeeping discussion and retain a polite, respectful attitude, you're in. Thoughtful beekeepers, different perspectives, intelligent contributors, willing to discuss the difficult issues without getting patronising or too heated, bit of a twinkle in the eye and a sense of humour, even better!
G.
I'm glad to hear that -don't fancy moving them to new pastures as a third of them are in an apiary on the side of a large pond which has recently spread to encompass the hive stands. But at least not as bad as Chris Slade up the road who's apparently had a couple of colonies washed away recently.
My sympathies are firmly with the organic camp but I happen to believe, based on best available evidence, that the neonicotinoid debate is a red herring with regard to bee problems.
Like JTF, I would not use sprays or pesticides in my garden and I prefer to live with the weeds.
I dislike killing anything to such an extent that I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years.
I make a notable exception for wasps!!
I don't own or drive a car.
I grow a lot of my own food, you get the picture.
What I cannot abide is the aggression and the pomposity of some who are self appointed spokes people for the organic movement or the lefties.
I can think for myself thank you very much without having child like arguments and flawed logic rammed down my throat by people for whom logic and evidence are alien concepts.
That and the constant accusation that anyone who opposes the unreferenced drivel is a 'shill' or a pesticide apologist.
The real harm is being done by those getting research monies channeled in the wrong direction.
Hmm, interesting, Jon. Why do you kill wasps? They're great for getting rid of cabbage white caterpillars. They can be a nuisance around hives in autumn but we don't find them a major problem so only remove wasp nests if they're a danger to us or guests where they are. Himself was mortified last year when he accidentally stood on a wasp nest while picking blackcurrants .. not because he got stung (he didn't) but because they died as a result! It was a bad year for brassicas because of it; what the caterpillars didn't munch the deer finished off :(
Most of us have an opinion about pesticides in general. Where things get complicated is the relationship between pesticides and bees, because some papers say this and some say that; and some people use the lack of consensus to persue their own ends.In whatever direction. Why bees? Why not the problems of pesticide contact for exploited farm workers? Or whatever. Bees are rather lucky in France- when the powerful get together to approve or disapprove the marketing of a particular pesticide, there is a"bee group" which gives its opinion, which can stop the pesticide getting approved. There is no such group for most other living species.
But what I really don't understand is why bee forums are polluted with all these threads. If I wanted to stop pesticides, I'd be trying to convince the farmers who use them that they'd be better off not doing so. Beekeepers aren't the ones spraying the fields . It's a bit like trying to persuade someone who has been shot that guns are not good.
Jon, when I wrote
I was actually making a general observation to the effect that he's proably got a lot of 'stuff' which it would be worth hearing about, stuff outside of the pesticide debate. Stuff which he has observed and experienced at first hand during his agricultural career. I reckon, based on a couple of his earlier posts, that most of us would find value in his experiences even if not directly applicable to our daily lives; such posts would add real value to this forum.
Possibly I'm at fault for not making that clearer to begin with but I did go on to point out that I don't like the way that a lot of the arguments are being presented; no, I didn't specify 'John's arguments' but I certainly didn't exclude them either.
Then we come to your direct reply to me...
Yes, i think that I do.
I share a disike for aggression and pomposity which was pretty much what my post which you've quoted was about. I don't like to feel that I'm being shouted at by either side because like you, I too am capable of thinking for myself.