OA treatment for double brood.

[onj]

Hi guys, this is my first year working with double brood boxes and it got me thinking about oxalic acid treatment. Do I split the boxes and treat separately or leave intact and treat as one? I'm a bit concerned about splitting in cold weather. Also, how much do I use? I will be using the trickle method, so do I use double the amount? Appreciate any help from your wealth of knowledge. As a wee aside, in my five years of beekeeping this is the worst year yet! East Lothian usually enjoys warm dry summers with plenty honey coming in, but I am having to feed 4 out of my 5 hives just now. This is the wetest, coolest summer I can remember in my 50 years!

[Jon]

I think standard practice is to just trickle into the top box rather than splitting, a maximum of 50ml at the standard dosage. (lets not go there yet, it's still july.)
The bees will work it through the cluster.

[onj]

Thanks for that Jon . I was thinking along those lines but just wanted to be certain. July? is it really? seems more like October. Seriously though, thanks again for the advice.

[Jon]

I was alluding to the annual arguments re 3.6, 4.2, 6.0 strength Oxalic by volume, by weight by Finland weights and measures.
Gavin knows what i am taking about re. his spats with Finman on another forum.

[GRIZZLY]

I was alluding to the annual arguments re 3.6, 4.2, 6.0 strength Oxalic by volume, by weight by Finland weights and measures.
Gavin knows what i am taking about re. his spats with Finman on another forum.

Spats Jon??,I thought it was more considered argument.

[gavin]

Absolutely. Kindly expressed reasoned argument against .... oh well, he might be reading so I'd best not.

[onj]

Got me totally confused there guys!:confused:

[Neils]

I'd take it as a sidetrack/in-joke onj. On Beekeeping forum there have been heated discussions over exactly how to make up an OA solution, if you buy it pre-prepared from a supplier then that particular discussion is irrelevant. Hope that helps shed a little light on it.

[gavin]

.... if you buy it pre-prepared from a supplier then that particular discussion is irrelevant.

Depends which supplier :p

[onj]

Thanks for that Nellie, I do remember a heated discussion on this subject by a certain individual with the initials E Mc. I will be using Thornes ready made.

[EmsE]

E Mc also argues that you should split the box and treat the bottom box then the top box.

I think he sent me an article on it after he was banned from the forum. Once at home with proper internet conection, I'll try and remember to post it if I can find it.
I have to say that although I do use doubles, I haven't yet had bees in both brood boxes at the end of december when I do the OA treatment

[prakel]

Hi, just a thought here and of course my bees may be far less prolific than other people's.

A few of my colonies will be overwintered as a dadant deep united to a 13 comb BS box (containing a new 2012 queen) but by the deepest days of winter I'm pretty confident (based on previous experience) that the vast majority (if not all) of the surviving bees will have migrated to the top box, those which haven't will tend to be straddling the bridge beween the two boxes and certainly won't benefit from having their cluster broken by the removal of the top box.

I appreciate that there are no definates with bee behaviour but I think that if you start from the assumption that part of the cluster is likely to be bridging the two boxes then seperation becomes less desirable.

EDIT: In other words, I'm agreeing with EmsE here!

[onj]

so, the general opinion seems to be keep the boxes intact and trickle into the top box? I think that is a good plan of action, cheers folks. I had a visit from the bee inspector, and apart from varroa, all seems well, just waiting to hear from SASA about sample of bees he took and the insert he put in. Fingers crossed!

[Jimbo]

If you think about what you are trying to do. I would not split the brood box. You are trickling X% of Oxalic solution (we can argue about the correct concentration later). The recommended amount is 5 mls per seam of bees but you have to use your judgment about the the strengh of the seam. The outside cluster seam will not be as strong as an inside cluster seam so you would trickle less than 5mls on that seam. There is a danger that you put too much Oxalic acid on which I think is not benificial to the bees. The Oxalic is also in a sugar solution so the method of treating is by ingestion. 5 mls should be enough to get down a double brood box seam if they are licking the sugar syrup. Treatment is also during a cold spell when in theory there should be no brood. I personally would not split a brood cluster apart during cold weather just to get the treatment in.

[EmsE]

What puzzled me about the thought of treating each brood box separately (as well as disturbing the brood) is that why would a cluster of bees require, in effect a double dose of OA just because they are in a double brood and have begun to move into the top box because there wasn't enough food in the box below, or the conditions were mild enough for the cluster to spread out more.

[gavin]

As far as I recall the advice has always been to remove boxes if you have a stack of them until the cluster is exposed (not needed for those who winter in single broods of course), then trickle on the bees. No further interference necessary. Eric, of course, always finds his own way to apply chemicals to bees, but it isn't necessarily the approved or best way.

G.

[Adam]

The Oxalic thing is a bit variable - cold weather will shrink the cluster so you then trickle less than if it was a wee bit warmer and the cluster has stretched over an additional frame. It does work though and if they are overdosed or underdosed by 10 or 20% it doesn't seem to matter. I would not split the cluster, just crown board off. Dribble. Then use the Oxalic Acid. (sorry an old joke). Crown board on. Done.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi guys
The Thorne's gadget for heating the oxalic is made by swienty I think
I bought one years ago and its still going strong no need to split boxes
Don't mention that idiot Fin on this forum we don't want him on here

[prakel]

I think that we're safe, he seems quite happy to hang out with some like minded individuals elsewhere.

[Calum]

Hi
no need to split them, the bees share it out.
If they are still in the lower box, or mostly in the lower box, you can just tip the upper box up 45° and treat the lower bees directly.
The gadget for vaporising oxalic crystalis if thats what you mean is a very cheap way to treat the bees, but it is really very very nasty stuff if you breath it in. Not sure how effective it is on a windy day with an open mesh floor. the drizzle method is safe and effective.
Luckily we get the solution here in 500g bottles with a pack of sugar. Just warm it up add sugar and treat. The solution with sugar doesn#t keep..

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi
no need to split them, the bees share it out.
If they are still in the lower box, or mostly in the lower box, you can just tip the upper box up 45° and treat the lower bees directly.
The gadget for vaporising oxalic crystalis if thats what you mean is a very cheap way to treat the bees, but it is really very very nasty stuff if you breath it in. Not sure how effective it is on a windy day with an open mesh floor. the drizzle method is safe and effective.
Luckily we get the solution here in 500g bottles with a pack of sugar. Just warm it up add sugar and treat. The solution with sugar doesn#t keep..

Hi Calum what you do with the open mesh floor is have it over a solid one, put the swienty heater in between the two, seal the gap with foam, the mesh helps disperse the oxalic evenly, stand upwind
Only downside is batteries are heavy to lug around two smaller ones are better than one big brute :)

[Calum]

I'll stick to my thermos full of OS sugar solution - it hasnt failed me so far- never lost a colony that made it to christmas yet.
500ml is enough to treat 10 colonies so a full thermos is enough for two sites. Never noticed the weight at all... :)

[Ruary]

Only downside is batteries are heavy to lug around two smaller ones are better than one big brute :)

I think you will find that vapourising treatment takes longer in the apiary because the seal should remain on for ten minutes. With the dribble once the hive roof is replaced treatment is over.
Also I can control a dribble better than a gas.
Ruary

[gavin]

Also I can control a dribble better than a gas.
Ruary

Passing up the obvious opportunity for misinterpretation (we're getting to that age Ruary!), this is very true. Sublimation will preferentially deposit the oxalic acid on the cooler, unused wood surfaces. What happens to it after that? The oxalic in syrup is placed directly on the bees, and any drops on the top bars will be quickly taken up by the bees.

Add to that the greatly increased risk of inhaling fumes and I don't see why anyone would want to lug car batteries, sublimating equipment and additional personal protective equipment out to their favourite apiary.

It is said that you can keep repeating a sublimation treatment (until the insides of your boxes turn white with crusty deposits of dry acid?), but a well-timed trickle treatment gets around 98% of the blighters.

[The Drone Ranger]

Because its the heart of winter and you don't need to open the hive I find its easier than it looks using the swienty
Start furthest downwind 3mins on the battery 10min before foam comes out you can treat twice if needed during winter.
Works for me but each to his own when standing in the snow treating hives :)
I'll have coffee in my flask