Reading a swarm

[gavin]

OK folks, what do you do when you approach a swarm? Just plan its capture?
Yesterday I tried to house two swarms. One stayed put, the other departed before I returned at lunch today. Here it is:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/orchard_swarm_22May2012sm.jpg

I wasn't surprised, it had already decided yesterday where it was going. You could see it just by looking at it. We mucked it about so much it gave up for the night but it didn't forget. What's more, the bees in that swarm were vibrating - you could feel it when you plunged your fingers into it. Does no-one else plunge their fingers into swarms?! Shades of Amelie Poulain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-kY7JEGrNI

I'd urge you to try. I want to use you to research something.

Swarm one yesterday was dithering. A quick look showed scouts dancing for at least four different locations. It was nowhere near making a decision, and stayed put in its box when I tapped it in. Swarm two (pictured) was different. They were all dancing for the same place and you could see a stream of bees flying to and from the chosen site, at least the chosen direction. Me and my helper scooped bees in our (latex-gloved) hands and dropped them in. Having got 90% in we left them, but half an hour later and again in the evening they were out again so we tried putting them in three times. On the last visit we saw the queen (marked). Maybe we'd missed her the first two times.

However, unlike other swarms I've scooped up by hand this one had bees that were vibrating. You could feel it. Haven't noticed that before and I don't think that last year's swarm-groping episodes had bees like that.

Did you all look at Tom Seeley's swarming videos (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?702-Communication-in-Bees)? When out in a cluster, after they have decided where to go. First of all they are given the 30 min warning, a piping call to tell them to warm up. Then when the time comes a buzz run to tell them to do it now. Can you feel them responding to the call to warm up?

So here is the challenge. Next time you see a swarm, first of all watch it. Has it reached a consensus? Then plunge (slowly!) your fingers in to see what they are doing. Go on, give them a good grope. I'd like to know.

If you don't know how to interpret the waggle dance Nellie's write-up of his visit to Sussex (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/content.php?133-LASI-Waggle-Dance-Workshop) may help. Just remember, straight up means towards the sun, 90 degrees to the right means 90 degrees to the right of the sun, and so on.

G.

[Jon]

I had the privilege of attending two lectures by Tom Seeley last June.
Brilliant speaker and presenter.
He has a diagram illustrating how bees initially check out about 10 possible destinations before deciding on the best one.
I asked him if there was a point of no return re swarm departure and he said it was pretty much when the dancers were all pointing in the same direction.
I suppose you could tip the swarm in a box and move it several miles away.

[gavin]

Yeah, that would have been the best ploy. Thought of it near my bedtime last night. We originally had an agreement that he would come to Stirling, but some bunch of pesticide shills down south (and maybe in Ulster too) must have made him a better offer.

[Jon]

It was the peoples Front of Judea, aka the INIB. They get good speakers. I missed Jurgen Tautz the year before although I got a signed copy of his biology of a super organism book given to me by a friend from the PFJ.

[gavin]

Ahh, the pesticide shills-linked PFJ. I should have known.

[Jon]

Or maybe it was the JPF. Can't remember.
24 hours and no mention of Imidaclop... oops think I got away with it.

It was a laugh at the queen rearing group last night. Some guys had lost swarms and other guys had gained swarms and some of them were the same swarms so there was a bit of don't mention the war going on.

[Neils]

Interesting stuff Gavin. I do tend to spend a bit of time looking at a swarm before I try and sort it out, but I'd be a liar if I said I'd paid too much attention to determining if they were coming to a consensus or not but I do tend to watch out for dancers. Never fondled one either, most handling of swarms tends to be because I dropped it.

[EmsE]

Look forward to sticking my hand into a swarm, hopefully not from my own hive though.

Do the scout bees go house hunting before the swarm leaves the hive? Just curious as I actually had to put my bee suit on today to go in the shed and checked through each super to make sure a swarm hadn't moved in as there were so many bees in there. They're obviously attracted to the smell of the boxes and frames. I've put a hive out at the side of the shed just in case they do want to move into my garden.

[Neils]

I believe (i.e. might be rubbish) so. I've caught colonies just in the nick of time before now and there have been bees taking far more interest in every nook and cranny than I see normally.

I've heard about, but not seen, that you can observe a pattern at bait hives too. Up to a couple of days before hand you can see scouts turning up to check the place out, if they like it you'll see more and more of them turning up to have a look before, with a bit of luck, an entire swarm moving in.

[Jon]

if they like it you'll see more and more of them turning up to have a look before, with a bit of luck, an entire swarm moving in.

This was the type of info Tom Seeley was presenting on his slides. The options are whittled down to two from an initial number of a dozen or so and you get more and more scouts at the possible site.
he also had a video of how bees dancing in the wrong direction get 'bumped' by bees more in the know re the best destination. Nothing like a head butt to focus the mind.

[Bumble]

I often think that looking at a swarm is like looking at a two year old. They both start twitching before making a run for it!

Deep in my bookmarks is this video of a Seeley lecture. You'll need a spare hour to watch it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEQoRYqm1w8
For the iOS users (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEQoRYqm1w8)

[gavin]

Today I had another chance to grope a swarm. This one landed in the association apiary and definitely was not one of ours. A cast rather than a swarm. A quick look as I was in a hurry to get to the association meeting at the other side of Dundee, and I couldn't see any dancing at all. Maybe it had just arrived - this was shortly after 1pm. Plunged (slowly) the hands in, Amelie-style, and they were buzzing just like the one early in the week. I was disappointed ...

.... however in the early evening on my way back the swarm, which seemed to have settled into a Paynes nuc box before I left it, had gone.

OK, now we have a pattern. Two swarms that seemed to be buzzing, and neither stayed put. Is this a pattern? Unfortunately not yet. I need to grope properly a swarm that stays put and is nowhere near deciding where to go.

[gavin]

Deep in my bookmarks is this video of a Seeley lecture. You'll need a spare hour to watch it.

Absolutely cracking talk, thanks Bumble.

G.

[The Drone Ranger]

Might be more to do with when the queen stopped laying
If that was the day before she will be keen to avoid a long flight and get back to laying
If it was a good few days since she stopped laying she migh be keener to fly off into the sunset

[gavin]

Did anyone see BBC Springwatch maybe three nights back when they had a beekeeper groping a swarm? Unfortunately that clip didn't make the iPlayer as far as I could see. He was plunging his hands in, Amelie-style, which made me wonder whether the BBC researcher (or beekeeper) had been reading this thread.

Yesterday I had another chance to grope a swarm, well, a cast. Probably one of mine unfortunately. On exactly the same branch as the picture at the start of the thread. This one was doing a small number of dances to different sites, and when I plunged my hands in (fingers only, it wasn't a huge one) it was definitely only vibrating slightly rather than fizzing like the other two. I checked it today and it had settled in the Paynes polynuc into which it had been dislodged yesterday afternoon.

So that is a sample of three and they all fit the pattern: a swarm ready to go fizzes, and one that hasn't decided just vibrates a little internally.

[Neils]

I gave it a go during my unsuccessful attempt to capture a swarm this afternoon, in the rain. After they legged it from the hive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0sYDQzdgU0

Didn't feel much in the way of vibration, very warm though. I think it might be obvious that I was somewhat trepidatious :D

I got there minutes after they'd settled, plonked them into a spare hive and left it there, after about an hour they all buggered off again about 20 ft up a tree. I managed to dislodge them from the tree, most of them missed the hive I'd positioned below but didn't seem to cluster again, is it possible they returned to the hive (a few feet away)?

Chappie who owns the hive turned up, we had a look a and this was a decent sized cast swarm, we took 8 live queens from the hive in the aftermath of trying to collect the swarm.

[The Drone Ranger]

Somebody posted this advice in another thread which I couldn't find sorry

Ignore the advice to get them in a box and leave them there till evening

Get them in a box take that some distance away 30 ft would be plenty and chuck them into a new hive box with foundation

Go back to the swarm landing place and smoke the fanning bees till they fly

The scouts will come back and no-one will meet them

Probably not foolproof but better than the usual advice if the swarm is early in the day

listen carefully to the swarm and if you can hear ABBA's "Dancing Queen" then you've met your Waterloo Fernando

[Neils]

Just as a slight aside, does anyone have any idea how long it is supposed to take a swarm to issue?

I was filming the hive I'd put the swarm into as it buggered off up a 20 ft branch and it seemed to take in the region of 6 minutes from me noticing it to the hive being basically empty.

[Bumble]

Just as a slight aside, does anyone have any idea how long it is supposed to take a swarm to issue?

I don't know the answer to that, but was talking to somebody the other day who saw a large swarm dive straight into an open chimney. He said it was amazing to see, and would have missed it if he hadn't turned his head at the right moment.

[gavin]

Last week I was in the apiary when a strong cast left (yes, I'd missed a frame with queen cells). It took several minutes, first a commotion at the entrance then after a while a cloud of bees covering quite a large space which slowly rose then settled high in an oak tree above. It didn't hang around for long, but the actual issuing of the cast did take quite a long time. 5-10 mins probably. Its ascent into the trees was quite slow, so I assume that they were waiting for the queen to make a decision on where she was going. Quite a sight really.

[Neils]

So is the location where the swarm settles chosen by the queen or is she steered by workers?

[gavin]

That I don't know. At a time like this you wish that you had Tom Seeley on the forum.

[Julian]

So is the location where the swarm settles chosen by the queen or is she steered by workers?

I’m not sure how they choose a place to alight when they first leave the hive but I have heard of beekeepers that constantly cull queens on the same post or branch to attract swarms. I’m not sure if the queen is then drawn to the culling site or if the workers steer the queen to it.

Tom Seeley was involved in some research to confirm how the swarm travels directly to its newly chosen home though. This is recorded in his book Honeybee Democracy.

It reports that scouts that have visited the new home steak directly towards the new location at the top of the swarm. As they are towards the top of the swarm they are highlighted against the sky making them more visible. They fly directly towards the new home at much greater speed than the uninformed members of the swarm. Thus the uninformed members of the swarm are directed by the informed scouts.

[Bumble]

So is the location where the swarm settles chosen by the queen or is she steered by workers?

I watched a video a while ago that showed a swarm leaving, and then returning to a post where the queen was trapped. If the queen can't follow they won't leave her behind.

I can't find the video, despite looking, but I did find this from Bristol Univeristy. It's from 2011, research from Cornell University, the University of Cailfornia-Riverside, the University of Sheffield and the University of Bristol. It's about physical and audible 'stop signals' in swarm waggle dances. http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2011/8105.html

[gavin]

Mark Winston in The Biology of the Honey Bee.

p142

The queens mandibular gland secretions have three swarm-associated functions: they attract workers to the cluster, stabilize the cluster, and aid in swarm movement to a new nest site. When workers issue from a nest in a swarm, they are attracted to the queen wherever she has alighted, 9ODA appears to be more important for attracting flying workers ...

p185

Suddenly, a torrent of workers pours out of the nest entrance and takes to the air, usually driving the queen out also. Occasionally 'false swarms' issue, when the queen is not driven out or reenters the nest. In that case the clustering workers become nervous, take flight, and return to the colony. If the queen joins the forming cluster, once the cluster has fully formed scouts fly out searching for potential nest sites.

So there is a degree of contradiction there, but it seems that clusters can form without the queen if necessary.

[Jon]

If your queen is clipped and the colony swarms, they usually form a normal swarm cluster hanging somewhere nearby which will then break up and return to the hive within half an hour or so.

[GRIZZLY]

I sat and watched a swarm leave one of my hives yestereday morning at 10.30 a.m.It took about two minutes to issue,flew around for another two minutes and then set off DOWNWIND towards a field surrounded by a whins hedge.The queen obviously got tired and flopped down onto a branch when the swarm formed a cluster around her.I had been following the swarm with my swarm box which I always keep handy - set a board onto the grass adjacent to the swarm,covered it with my swarm cloth ,shook the swarm into the box,upended it on to the cloth ,made an entrance into the bottom of the box ,then left them for ten minutes to let the bees run into the box.I then removed the entrance,covered every thing with the cloth,carried them into my garden where I set up a hive.I dumped them into the top of the brood box,replaced the frames then the roof and left them to it.The whole operation from swarming to hive took 25 minutes.They are still in the hive this morning when I will feed them with a Millar feeder.I think swarms only abscond when the scout bees have had time to establish an alternative site.If you get them early enough before the scouts get to work you won't lose them.Also feed well to get them re-established.As for casts,I go thro the parent colony and reduce them to just one good q.cell.I will sometimes take a split especially if the q in the swarm is old and I need to requeen them later.

[prakel]

I think swarms only abscond when the scout bees have had time to establish an alternative site.If you get them early enough before the scouts get to work you won't lose them.

This is where Drone Rangers excellent advice to move the captured swarm away from it's settling place comes into pay -although I'm not sure about heavily smoking that area once the swarm is removed as I think that that is more likely to cause the now abandoned scouts to seek out the swarm (assuming that you've set it down relatively close) which defeats the idea; better perhaps to not disturb the scouts if at all possible and let 'em either perish (preferably) or return to the parent hive.

[Jon]

I think swarms only abscond when the scout bees have had time to establish an alternative site.

That's the way I see it as well. If you capture a swarm and leave the skep beside the tree or bush it was hanging in the chances are that the scouts will go about business as usual. If The swarm has been hanging for most of a day, or overnight the chances are that the scouts have already decided where to go. A lot of those 'stragglers' you were hoping to mop up will be the returning scouts and those ones are best left behind.
If you have most of the swarm in a skep or a swarm box, best get it away as quickly as possible and rehouse it.

[Neils]

I'm not sure I agree that they only abscond once the scouts have made their mind up. I hived the swarm on Sunday minutes after it had settled and within an hour it was gone again and clustered somewhere else.

I havent discounted that I might have screwed up, but I know the queen was in the hive along with the swarm.

[Neils]

Just as another thought I generally tend to regard queens as basically dumb as a box of rocks but they emit the pheromone that attracts the cluster. So if culling queens on a spot attracts swarms to it might that not suggest that the swarm queen is steered by workers? In a swarm why would queen by attracted to another queen's pheromone?

[prakel]

My own approach to capturing swarms is obviously based on the same thought process that has moulded Jon's thinking however, to elaborate on my previous post


...better perhaps to not disturb the scouts if at all possible and let 'em either perish (preferably) or return to the parent hive.

I can't disuade myself of the thought that if the abandoned scouts do return to the parent colony they may possibly be responsible for 'inciting' the issue of a cast where there may not have otherwise been one. I don't know if that can happen but I see no obvious reason to assume that by being cut adrift from the swarm they'll forget a new site which they've found....

[chris]

So if culling queens on a spot attracts swarms to it might that not suggest that the swarm queen is steered by workers? In a swarm why would queen by attracted to another queen's pheromone?

And just to complicate matters a little more,

http://www.apiculturegatineau.fr/photo_1.html

Marc Gatineau says that this swarm weighs about 8 kilos and is the result, like many very large swarms, of several swarms leaving their hives at the same time and getting together at the same place.

[Jon]

You would not run that one into a 5 frame nuc!

I have a fence at the allotment where queens keep alighting.
I had at least 10 from apideas land on the same spot over the course of last summer.

In a nightmare day, I had about 6 queens take a mating flight from apideas at the same time and at least 3 or 4 of them got balled and killed as several landed on this same spot and their accompanying bees balled the strange queens they encountered.

This fence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mNKvN4v1U). I kept having to bring over an empty apidea to retrieve the queen and the bees with her. It happened over and over again.

[chris]

You would not run that one into a 5 frame nuc!



Nope. 6 Warré boxes!
http://www.apiculturegatineau.fr/photo.html
1st photo

[Julian]

Just as another thought I generally tend to regard queens as basically dumb as a box of rocks but they emit the pheromone that attracts the cluster. So if culling queens on a spot attracts swarms to it might that not suggest that the swarm queen is steered by workers? In a swarm why would queen by attracted to another queen's pheromone?

As the queen is in flight it would be very difficult for her entourage to guide or prevent her from pursuing the other queen if she have murder in mind. The rest of the swarm would then follow her. Not that I know, it’s just another possibility.