Looking to get a microscope can anyone advise

[markylaird]

have been looking around and the brunel advanced set looks like the choice but whats the diffrence between http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Professional-High-Power-Compound-Doctor-Vet-Medical-Microscope-w-Live-Camera-/140742536382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c4e8acbe

any help would be much appreciated

[Neils]

Whilst waiting for Ruary to hopefully make an appearance (general guru on all things microscopy), it might help if you could elaborate a little on what it is that you want to do. If Nosema sampling was your primary aim, it looks like you could do that a lot cheaper, with one of the Advanced set 'scopes rather than buy the whole set or have the swishy looking one from ebay.

These days, as handy as being able to take images via USB sounds, 640x480 isn't much to crow about. I dare say that capability would be useful, but these days it's not far off like looking at a stamp when it comes to monitor resolutions, the iPhone can display pictures at a greater resolution than that.

[Ruary]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Nellie.
When you get to reading the description of the ebay item one item that stands out is 2000 magnifications. This is impossible with light microscopes the maximum is about 1000X because of physical limitations of waveform light. any larger magnification just gives a bigger picture with no more detail than the X100 limit.( like digital zoom on a camera)
Would you trust a dealer with that sort of statement.
Secondly it talks of adjustable interpupilary distance fine if the microscope is binocular but can not be done on a monocular microscope as you need two eyepieces to adjust the distance between them.
Third they reside in India how are you going to contact them if there is a fault and how long will it take for the replacement to arrive.
Ruary

[Ruary]

To second what Nellie said,
Decide what you want to do with the microscope first. Acarine detection needs a stereo dissecting microscope.
The other diseases require a compond microscope:
Nosema spores need no more than X400 for normal use. Pollen using Sawyers data table is reliant on X400 with the occasional foray into X600. Serious pollen analysis goes up to X1000 and uses very strong chemicals to expose the exine.
Bacterias (AFB; EFB etc) require X1000.
If you are going to use the microscopes a lot, then binocular compund is easier on the eyes. If you have astigmatism (as I do) you really need to get eyepieces which allow of their use. (They are called high eyepoint have a spectacle symbol on the side with the magnification markings).
Not all microscopes give the same clarity Randy Oliver tried several before he found the best one (for him) for nosema checking.
If you are going to do a lot of photography then a tri-ocular microscope comes in handy. I am just using a compact digital camera clamped to the ordinary eyepiece and though awkward it does a very satisfactory job. If you are doing photos then you do need plan objectives, certainly for the X40 and larger ones or else jst take the centre of the field.
Hope this helps
Ruary

[Neils]

Ruary, thanks for that, I learned a lot from it :) I've stickied the post for future reference as I think for general advice there's a lot of useful info here.

[Neils]

Well Santa came this year and bought me Brunel Microscope's primary set for bee disease/dissection:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8078/8315699400_20a07a3445_b.jpg[/url]
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33552301@N05/8315699400/) by tehNellie_ (http://www.flickr.com/people/33552301@N05/), on Flickr

I think I'll figure out how to actually use the things before I start worrying about taking photos.

[The Drone Ranger]

£49-95 Lidl had a Biolux made in Germany with usb cam resolution 1280x1080 didn't open box but has all the magnification required for beekeeping
that was last week they might still have them Last time they sold them was April

The fish guys seem to like them
http://www.pond-life.me.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6169

[Ruary]

£49-95 Lidl had a Biolux made in Germany with usb cam resolution 1280x1080 didn't open box but has all the magnification required for beekeeping
that was last week they might still have them Last time they sold them was April

The fish guys seem to like them
http://www.pond-life.me.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6169

Magnification by itself doesn't mean much what you want is resolution and for nosema a good field of view.

[Blackcavebees]

Magnification by itself doesn't mean much what you want is resolution and for nosema a good field of view.

What do you think of this one from Lidls? Would it be ok for a beginner to microscopy like me? Would it be enough for exam purposes, or just a toy?

[masterbk]

It is better than a toy but not really suitable for the microscopy exam as the optics aren't that brilliant and you don't have separate fine and coarse focus knobs or oil immersion lens.

[The Drone Ranger]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B001BPQL4C/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/bee-disease.html

Something like this might be a good option
Unless you are making microscopy a hobby or doing some exam my advice is don't worry about oil immersion high power messy stuff plan optics etc.
The microscope will spend most of its time in a cupboard

[The Drone Ranger]

If you do make some pollen slides etc.
it helps to make a slide heating box
Basic plan is marine ply box with metal lid
Light bulb holder and bulb inside box
Dimmer switch on outside of box
Here's a useful site http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/index.html
and another one http://www.quekett.org/starting/digital-photomicrography.htm

[Ruary]

Even simpler, empty tin, I use a wine concentrate one, suported over a 40 Watt bulb, temperature control achieved by raising tin off base to provide ventilation, no need for dimmer control.

[Jon]

Even simpler, empty tin, I use a wine concentrate one,

Another Irishman brewing his own! Where will it all end.

[The Drone Ranger]

If you make one with dimmer control though you can use it for gradual melting of a jar of granulated honey
Wax impregnating samples for your rocking microtome etc.
And drying your socks after visiting the hives.
If your buying high quality microscopes you will want to get the best from them and that takes investment of time and money.
I'm pretty lazy as a rule but you can make a decent slide warming box in an afternoon wine takes about 4 weeks :)

For anybody interested in section cutting http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/microtomy.html
I have one of these brunel rocking jobs and its pretty good for the money

Practical Section Cutting and Staining is a book by E C Claydon (my copy is 1948) which covers the whole sectioning and staining subject very well for the non professional microscopist http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/070001473X/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
Dont pay Amazon price though just search around or get library copy

[Ruary]

Wax impregnating samples for your rocking microtome etc.......
I wish I had one, lack of funds etc

I'm pretty lazy as a rule but you can make a decent slide warming box in an afternoon wine takes about 4 weeks :)Hold on....... you empty the concentrate and make the wine, while it is brewing you make insert the lamp holder on a piece of wood, two more to raise that of the work surface and give space for the flex.... 10 minutes no more, and you have wine brewing...;-)

[The Drone Ranger]

I wish I had one, lack of funds etc
Hold on....... you empty the concentrate and make the wine, while it is brewing you make insert the lamp holder on a piece of wood, two more to raise that of the work surface and give space for the flex.... 10 minutes no more, and you have wine brewing...;-)

Ruary you are right

Not only am I pretty lazy it seems but pretty thick as well LOL! :)
worth keeping an eye on the Brunel site the second hand used stuff, I think they are trade ins, sometimes they come up.
Microscopy is a bottomless money pit if you start collecting stuff
I've managed to resist trying to stick a camera on mine but if I was rich I would like a fancy one with the trinocular tube and digital camera attachment

I nicked this link from Microbees site

http://www-saps.plantsci.cam.ac.uk/pollen/index2.htm

Fantastic pollen images from a schools project

[Ruary]

I've managed to resist trying to stick a camera on mine but if I was rich I would like a fancy one with the trinocular tube and digital camera attachment I use a compact digital camera with a 'universal digiscoping adapter' bought some years ago from Jessops. I found the Brunel one very difficult to adjust.

[The Drone Ranger]

Get thee behind me satan
I'm not buying anything else --- Although I have a compact camera not doing anything .......

Haven't tried this but the guys on the Queckett Microscopy site seem quite keen, see what you think
http://www.quekett.org/resources/making-rheinberg-illumination-discs.htm

[The Drone Ranger]

[QUOTE=Neils;15083]Well Santa came this year and bought me Brunel Microscope's primary set for bee disease/dissection:

Hi Neils

how did you rate the Brunel Bee Disease scope package
Would you recommend the set to people new to microscopy
Were there good setup instructions etc

[Neils]

I have only used the DM5 stereo microscope at the current time, we're starting up a beginner's microscopy group run by an ex 'professional' microscopist, though not on bees, after easter, so I've yet to really try out the SP20 in anger so this really is a beginner's assessment:

The stereo microscope is certainly easy to use. Grab a bee (dead preferably or they tend to run/fly off) and put it under the scope and have a look at it.

Both come nicely packaged so there's little chance of damage in transit, both come with dust covers and seem to be well put together and solid bits of kit.

There is little in the way of operating instructions that come with the microscopes though there was a suggestion that I should have some oil for the compound 'scope which I don't seem to have and Brunel's site is pretty weak on that side of things in terms of figuring out what other bits and bobs a budding microscopist might want or need to get started and/or take it to the next level.

I did find some better images of the two 'scopes:

http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/_wp_generated/wp9a2f7450_02.jpg

http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/_wp_generated/wpb8d3e770_02.jpg

From my limited experience point of view, what I like about the stereo 'scope is that it takes batteries so you could chuck it in a bag and take it with you to the apiary and have a look at things while you were there.

My complaint with the compound is that the lead for the light is very short. Remembering way back when to science lessons in school, it'd be fine when you have a plug a foot or so away next to the gas tap, but for the rest of us where the sockets are a few feet a away from the table and on the floor it's not that practical.

Otherwise they both seem to be well put together and solid bits of kit, especially considering you can have them both for a shade over £100.

My gut feeling is that if I get into the microscopy side of things at all that I will quickly find myself outgrowing them, certainly, the compound one and wanting to get something better or more flexible relatively soon. I'd like to be able to put a camera down it without having to remove the eyepiece for example.

Once I get a chance to use them properly in anger I'll update my thoughts.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Neils
They do look like a seriously good buy for the money

[Neils]

DR, I have looked at the Lidl ones and a few others and I do think the Brunel scopes look and feel like 'proper' bits of kit in comparison. Sure there's a price premium but I do actually think that you get a lot of 'scope for your £100+

[The Drone Ranger]

DR, I have looked at the Lidl ones and a few others and I do think the Brunel scopes look and feel like 'proper' bits of kit in comparison. Sure there's a price premium but I do actually think that you get a lot of 'scope for your £100+

Thanks Neils I'm sure people coming to the thread will be helped by your post and the photos.
Re the oil that's only used with the x100 objective which is not needed for pollen or nosema

[gavin]

Happy to give you personal tuition at the weekend if you like. Essential things for the compound scope are:
- be careful cleaning the lenses. No rubbing. Clean lens tissue only to tickle off any dust specks
- small clearance from the objective lens to slide (so watch when switching lenses and only look at thin mounted specimens)
- arrange the optics so that the light for the specimen comes in a parallel-sided beam just the width of the field of view. (Centre and focus the condenser if you can, and adjust the diaphragm to allow just the right amount of light)
- there may be another diaphragm inside the condenser which further optimises the light. If so just set it at the point where it is just about to start to dim.

Cheaper models may lack the ability to make these adjustments.

Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk

[The Drone Ranger]

I use a compact digital camera with a 'universal digiscoping adapter' bought some years ago from Jessops. I found the Brunel one very difficult to adjust.
Haven't bought an adapter yet so just testing with the compact camera held at the eyepiece but your right it works :)

1479

pollen

[Ruary]

Haven't bought an adapter yet so just testing with the compact camera held at the eyepiece but your right it works :) The difficulty in hand holding the camera is getting the alignment right and camera shake, but as you have found you can get reasonable shots that way. The trouble I had with the Brunell camera kit is that unless your lens has a screw thread (when you can use the unilink) you need to have their 'link arm' the rods of which are round and so will rotate which makes life too tricky. The Jessops one (designed, I think for astronomy) has screw adjusters for everything except the camera to lens distance. Much easier to adjust.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Ruary you answered my next question before I thought of it
There a lots of adapters which are sold for astronomy and I wasn't sure if they could do the job
Wish I had gone to Jessops closing down sale :)

[Ruary]

Wish I had gone to Jessops closing down sale :)
I gather that the firm has re-opened. The adapter comes in two sizes ranges make sure you get the right one.

[Neils]

Having done a recent course, sadly not at Gormanston, on Microscopy (do I mention the NDB/Defra courses here? I suspect they're England only) I've been doing a bit of shopping around to supplement the microscopes and give me the tools to do things properly.

First up and especially if you're considering taking the Microscopy assessment, Dade (http://ibrastore.org.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_2&products_id=3) is reference. the book costs nearly £30 but you can buy just the dissection plates from IBRA for £8, they're laminated, double sided A4 and Excellent quality if lacking the look and feel of fold out paper from a book:
http://ibrastore.org.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=176

I have both Snograss and Snell when it comes to Honey Bee anatomy and I've heard it said that a lot of Dade is "influenced" by Snodgrass, so the plates on their own, and laminated, seemed a good choice.

Beecraft do a "microbox" (https://shop.bee-craft.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Microbox) of the basic kit you need to "do" Microscopy. It's all supplied via Brunel and I tried putting together the same stuff from their website. I got a few extra bits or quantities here or there buying separates, but the microbox comes with a decent book for, basically, the difference. I'm still new to this so perhaps our resident experts can weigh in on their opinion as to the contents.

Finally, beeswax and a polish tin comes in handy for dissection. Both I'd hazard might be readily to hand to a beekeeper thinking of buying microscopes rather than buying the posh and poncy kit from the major suppliers.

[The Drone Ranger]

The microbox looks good to me everything you need in not too big quantities
plus it must fit in the box :)
very neat
My microscopy chemicals are two storage boxes with sealed lids

[Ruary]

I wish my collection was as compact, add in dissection kit etc, and it all mounts up.

[Ruary]

I have only used the DM5 stereo microscope at the current time, we're starting up a beginner's microscopy group run by an ex 'professional' microscopist, though not on bees, after easter, so I've yet to really try out the SP20 in anger so this really is a beginner's assessment:

The stereo microscope is certainly easy to use. Grab a bee (dead preferably or they tend to run/fly off) and put it under the scope and have a look at it.

Both come nicely packaged so there's little chance of damage in transit, both come with dust covers and seem to be well put together and solid bits of kit.

There is little in the way of operating instructions that come with the microscopes though there was a suggestion that I should have some oil for the compound 'scope which I don't seem to have and Brunel's site is pretty weak on that side of things in terms of figuring out what other bits and bobs a budding microscopist might want or need to get started and/or take it to the next level.

I did find some better images of the two 'scopes:

http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/_wp_generated/wp9a2f7450_02.jpg

http://www.brunelmicroscopes.co.uk/_wp_generated/wpb8d3e770_02.jpg

From my limited experience point of view, what I like about the stereo 'scope is that it takes batteries so you could chuck it in a bag and take it with you to the apiary and have a look at things while you were there.

My complaint with the compound is that the lead for the light is very short. Remembering way back when to science lessons in school, it'd be fine when you have a plug a foot or so away next to the gas tap, but for the rest of us where the sockets are a few feet a away from the table and on the floor it's not that practical.

Otherwise they both seem to be well put together and solid bits of kit, especially considering you can have them both for a shade over £100.

My gut feeling is that if I get into the microscopy side of things at all that I will quickly find myself outgrowing them, certainly, the compound one and wanting to get something better or more flexible relatively soon. I'd like to be able to put a camera down it without having to remove the eyepiece for example.

Once I get a chance to use them properly in anger I'll update my thoughts. I am sorry to be coming to this too late, I saw the dissecting microscope at the brunell display at Gormanston and thought the upright stance of the eye tubes would be awkward. I would rather spend a bit more and get inclined tubes.

[Neils]

I think it looks worse than it is because as an alternate downside, it's not very high either. Out of the two, this is the one that think I'll outgrow and look to replace quickest. The compound is perfectly fine and ultimately I find that you just use it less, most of the time is in the actual slide preparation in many respects whereas you tend to be doing stuff(tm) with a dissecting microscope and I was definitely spoiled by the one I used on the NDB course in comparison but it costs 5x+ as much to buy.

[Black Comb]

Neil
Not sure of the size of your budget but like you after a course at HA I was spoiled by the zoom stereos.
This one, although via Fleabay, is very good. It is a Gx optical model and a trinocular.
It is quite a bit larger than than the one you illustrated.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XTL3T101-TOP-QUALITY-STEREO-ZOOM-TRINOCULAR-MICROSCOPE-/121149022534?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_E quipment_ET&hash=item1c350b6146

[The Drone Ranger]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLYMPUS-SZ6045-STEREO-ZOOM-MICROSCOPE-AND-STAND-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-/130956959829?pt=UK_Collectables_Scientific_MJ&hash=item1e7da4a055
always a few S/H on Ebay

[Black Comb]

Trinocular scopes seem to cost a fair bit more than binocular.

[The Drone Ranger]

Trinocular scopes seem to cost a fair bit more than binocular.
It does seem that feature adds a lot to the price
Buying S/H on Ebay some of the stuff has done the rounds and is pretty worn
If you find something with one previous owner that's better

[Black Comb]

This is a good site to keep your eye on. Scopes come around fairly regularly.
Make sure you click on relevant sub menus, eg. Both pre-owned, ex lab., as well as bargains, ex demo., not forgetting there may be several pages in each category. As they are supplied by a microscope company there is a bit more assurance than Fleabay.
http://www.usedmicroscopes.co.uk/index.html

[Neils]

While there are undoubtedly some deals to be had I think Ruary raised good points, especially about buying from eBay as a beginner, which I certainly class myself as at the moment.

As an aside, apart from Brunel are there any other companies people use or recommend for buying additional kit for making up slides? Brunel's site is a bit of a nightmare to navigate and there are a few things I want that they don't seem to carry.

[Black Comb]

Try Highfield Bees.

[The Drone Ranger]

While there are undoubtedly some deals to be had I think Ruary raised good points, especially about buying from eBay as a beginner, which I certainly class myself as at the moment.

As an aside, apart from Brunel are there any other companies people use or recommend for buying additional kit for making up slides? Brunel's site is a bit of a nightmare to navigate and there are a few things I want that they don't seem to carry.
This company are on Ebay but they have lots of stuff for making slides etc I have used them quite a few times
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Magnacol/_i.html?rt=nc&_sid=93428372&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=2

[Ruary]

Also known as Scuttlebutts, based in Wales. I have used them and was content with what I ordered.

[Neils]

A ringing endorsement Ruary :D