Overreaction to bee stings: can leatrile help?

[Stromnessbees]

I have found some information that leatrile, also known as vitamin B17 or amygdalin, can help to calm down an overreactive immune system.

It's an inactive form of cyanide which is non-toxic and occurs in many kernels like bitter almonds, apricots and apples.

It has also been known to help against cancer and can be bought in various forms.

I like to experiment and have been taking 10 to 15 apricot kernels per day for the last 2 months.

All I need now is a few decent stings to see how good/bad my reaction is. :eek:

If this works many beekeepers who are worried about anaphylactic shock could find relief simply by adding these kernels to their diet.

Anybody else up for the challenge?

[gavin]

Goodness! Doris, I thought that you were against the unnecessary use of chemicals? Laetrile is amygdalin, a cyanogenic glycoside. In other words it is a sugar molecule with another molecule attached which releases cyanide when exposed to the common enzyme glucosidase. Overdose on it and you'll kill yourself.

Take a look at this medical paper on laetrile from 1979 when physicians were concerned about an epidemic of US cancer sufferers dosing themselves with the chemical (extract below):

http://www.ajcn.org/content/32/5/1121.full.pdf

So if you take it, Doris, you might suppress anaphylaxis (or sting reactions which are rarely anaphylactic), who knows, but you will probably be suppressing every metabolic process in your body at the same time, which is never a sensible thing to do.

If there was any risk of anyone taking this advice seriously I'd have to pull this thread. But there isn't, is there?

A reaction to stings (even a strong one) isn't anaphylaxis - anaphylaxis is a special type of reaction away from the site of the sting. It is well worth knowing what it is like as it can be life-threatening - see your GP if you think that you've had such a reaction. And if you have had such a reaction (as I have) you can be desensitised.

all the best

Gavin

from: Laetrile: the cult of cyanide
Promoting poison for profit1
Victor Herbert,2 M.D., J.D.
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1979.

The Laetrile Cult is perhaps the most bizarre,
ruthless, deceptive misleading and dangerous
health cult to come along in this century.
Laetrile is not supported as of value by
a single scientist recognized in the scientific
community as a currently reliable source of
information about cancer or about nutrition
(5, 8, 10, 21-29). Its support comes from selfstyled
cancer and nutrition experts rewarded
by backers who profit from such promotions,
such as the Committee for Freedom of Choice
in Cancer Therapy (some of whose leading
figures have had criminal ns45 and
the National Health Federation (seven of
whose leading figures have had criminal convictions
in relation to health fraud) (30). Individual
proponents have allegedly taken in
miffions of dollars from it (5, 30-34), it is a
billion dollar a year industry (5, 30-34), an
estimated hundred thousand cancer patients
(at least 50,000 in the United States) are
fanatically supporting it even as it shortens
their lives .....

[Stromnessbees]

Hi Gavin, you make me laugh!

As you might know, everything is made up of chemicals, if I would refuse them I would starve, dry out and suffocate, but probably in the reverse order.

And how anybody can make millions out of a by product of apricot jam is not clear to me at all. :confused:

As I say, i am taking 10 to 15 apricot kernels a day, and if that gives some poor Turkish farmer a few extra lira I shall be quite happy about it.

I don't think it's doing me any harm either, as I am feeling better than ever.


Are you not aware that natural remedies are fiercely opposed by the pharmaceutical industry in order to safeguard their own profits? - I know it's not the Turkish apricot farmers who are making the millions and who put out propaganda in order to get the competition off the market.
:rolleyes:

... and pulling the thread? Are people not allowed to make up their own minds anymore?
I would love to give you updates on my reaction to stings, and if anybody is interested, on my general wellbeing as well.

[Trog]

A thread on reactions to stings would indeed be interesting ... but might it not put off potential beekeepers reading these pages?

I remember putting a few kernels in the mixture the only time I made apricot jam (cheap, remaindered fruit in the co!). Not too keen on raw seeds of any kind as pumpkin (or is it sunflower?) has rather a drastic effect on me when it's in a muesli mix!

[gavin]

Trog, yes, we should discuss the risks of anaphylactic shock as it is a serious concern and one that does affect a proportion of beekeepers and their families. If it puts people off beekeeping that is OK - people should get into the hobby knowing the risks.

Doris, neither of us is qualified to give advice on folk dosing themselves with toxic stuff, whether it comes in pill form or from the poisonous part of a plant.

It looks like the dose you are planning to give yourself is about half the dose which is reported to give people serious health effects and is the dose rate that was pulled by a retailer and the subject of specific advice of harm from the Food Standards Agency. What if someone fed this to their children?

This really isn't about conspiracy theories and pharmaceutical giants, it is about the responsible use of the internet and my sensitivity, as forum administrator, to advice being given that could seriously compromise people's health.

So no, sorry, not interested to hear the outcome of your trial as any commentary on either the effect on sting effect intensity or the effect on likelihood of anaphylaxis needs proper replicated scientific medical investigation.

There is a report mentioning the FSA advice here:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/41594.php

Apricot Seeds At High Doses Can Be Fatal

Apricot seeds are taken by many people as a cancer treatment as they contain high doses of Vitamin B17, an immune system enhancer. However, apricot seeds also contain cyanide, a poison.

The Food Standards Agency (UK) has advised people to take no more than two bitter apricot kernels a day. Higher doses could be dangerous for human health.

According to the Food Standards Agency (FSA), it has received reports from various parts of the world of people overdosing with apricot seeds.

A UK retailer, Julian Gray, was selling 10 seeds a day doses of apricot seeds. The retailer says it will re-sell them at not such a high dose (the present dose is not longer for sale).

And this from a source I don't usually trust, the Daily Mail, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt this time:

'The FSA's warning follows the advice of its Committee on Toxicity regarding bitter apricot kernels.

A spokesman for the food watchdog said the kernels were a niche product in the UK, but added: "There have been reports from overseas of consumption of 20 to 30 kernels by adults in a short period of time being associated with very serious health effects. They could potentially be lethal in high enough doses."

20-30 kernels in a short space of time giving very serious health effects - what about the dose you are taking if you take it for longer? Are you being monitored by a doctor? Please take care!

[Stromnessbees]

A thread on reactions to stings would indeed be interesting ... but might it not put off potential beekeepers reading these pages?

I remember putting a few kernels in the mixture the only time I made apricot jam (cheap, remaindered fruit in the co!). Not too keen on raw seeds of any kind as pumpkin (or is it sunflower?) has rather a drastic effect on me when it's in a muesli mix!

It is the pumpkin ... lucky you to get such a distinctive effect!

:p

http://www.eatsomethingsexy.com/wordpress/aphrodisiac-foods/pumpkin/

[gavin]

LOL! We await Trog's clarification with interest ......

[Jon]

Yes, and on a Sunday too!

[Stromnessbees]

... in the meantime I want to thank Gavin for not shutting down this thread,
may this forum remain a beacon of free speech!

[gavin]

Whether or not it stays like that partially depends on the level of detail Trog is going to supply ;)

G.

[Rosie]

Come on Trog - open up!

Gavin, I like almonds. I'm not after any health effect but I keep a bowl of them in the kitchen and grab a couple as I walk past. I have assumed that they don't have cyanide at all. Are you able to confirm that?

Can they be affecting my mental function and causing me to favour AMMs (how's that for back on topic?)

Rosie

[Trog]

Goodness me, you lot! I post a perfectly innocent comment and you all jump to conclusions ;) Having led a very sheltered life, I was completely unaware of claims made for the effects of birdfood on humans. In my experience, sunflower seeds (or maybe pumpkin ... perhaps someone can 'prescribe' something for my memory!) are very effective at clearing out the digestive tract.

Can any of the chemists tell me whether 'natural colouring - anthocyanins' are related to the poison in question?

[Neils]

Come on Trog - open up!

Isn't that the basis of the problem?

[gavin]

You can take things a wee bittie too far Nellie!



Are you able to confirm that?

From Wikipedia -
The bitter almond is slightly broader and shorter than the sweet almond, and contains about 50% of the fixed oil that occurs in sweet almonds. It also contains the enzyme emulsin (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emulsin&action=edit&redlink=1) which, in the presence of water, acts on a soluble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soluble) glucoside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoside), amygdalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin), yielding glucose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose), cyanide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide) and the essential oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_oil) of bitter almonds, which is nearly pure benzaldehyde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzaldehyde). Bitter almonds may yield from 4–9 mg of hydrogen cyanide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide) per almond.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond#cite_note-18) Extract of bitter almond was once used medicinally, but even in small doses, effects are severe, and in larger doses can be deadly; the cyanide must be removed before consumption.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond#cite_note-19)

So, same thing in almonds only (presumably) less of it as I've never heard anyone warn about eating a handful of kernels each day. I frequently do and I'm still here.



Can any of the chemists tell me whether 'natural colouring - anthocyanins' are related to the poison in question?

I can declare with total certainty that anthocyanins are nothing to do with cyanide, different molecules entirely and definitely healthy things to eat. The only link is the etymological one - cyano meaning blue.

[Stromnessbees]

Hi Gavin

It's really nice of you that you are so concerned that I could poison myself.
But I have good reason to be confident that I'll be fine:

When my mother used to breed little parrots the favourite food of the pigeon-sized birds were apple kernels. They would eat lots of them without any adverse effects. This surprised us, especiallly considering the low bodyweight of the birds they should have dropped dead. - Instead they thrived.

I can also confess that I have already eaten more than 50 kernels in one go: when I got them delivered first I just loved the flavour and snacked on them, as they taste a bit like marzipan.

Now I stick to my small ration every day though, as my boyfriend got a bit worried when he saw me munching them.


Maybe you can tell me how long I have to survive on this ration to prove that it is not toxic?

And to get a bit of balance into this discussion I'll see if I can find some documentation to counter the info you came up with.

[GRIZZLY]

Just as a matter of interest,herself got stung on the arm yesterday and immediately applied a commercial Aloe based cream to the stung area,This completely relieved the itching and reduced her swelling to zero.Perhaps we should chew some Aloe plant and prevent shock ? if we get stung.(said he-very much tongue in cheek)
I suppose I'm one of the lucky ones who have absolutely no reaction to stinging ,or could it be that I have now kept bees for over 40 years??.

[gavin]

I'm sure that Doris would be up for chewing her way through one of these (the plant not the lady) ....

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/474339http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/474339http://media15.onsugar.com/files/2011/07/28/3/1818/18184686/aa9434ca00110564_Aloe_Vera_Plant_Pictures_C.jpg

Watch out for the little teeth along the edge of the leaf, Doris. The Food Standards Agency say that you should eat only two of the little teeth per day ...

Seriously though, anyone else use Aloe vera cream to relieve stings?

Doris - if you stop posting on here again we'll know that you've poisoned yourself!

[Neils]

I've used witchhazel creams/gels before now which seem to help alleviate the itching around stings. I seem to vary in my reaction to stings, sometimes not at all, sometimes lots of redness and swelling. Antihistamines really don't agree with me when I've been stung, having read suggestions around the place to take them before inspecting "just in case", or after being stung. for the most part I just get rid of the sting and accept I'll probably be sore for a few days.

[Stromnessbees]

I'm sure that Doris would be up for chewing her way through one of these (the plant not the lady) ....

Watch out for the little teeth along the edge of the leaf, Doris. The Food Standards Agency say that you should eat only two of the little teeth per day ...

Seriously though, anyone else use Aloe vera cream to relieve stings?

Doris - if you stop posting on here again we'll know that you've poisoned yourself!

Does that mean that as long as I am posting on here I am still alive? :cool:

Re aloe: I have some plants at home but don't really use them. I wouldn't eat the green outside of the leaves - where the little teeth are - as it will bring on diarrhoea.


Grizzly, the fact that your body has learned how to deal with bee stings is a sign that your immune system is healthy and that your food contains a good part of the nutrients it requires.


Leatrile ad other bitter substances used to be a lot more common in our diet:

One of the problems with our food is that well meaning plant breeders have over the centuries bred most bitter compounds out of the plants we eat. Whatever is left is usually removed by the processing.
We are naturally attracted to sweeter tasting foods, but they used to be rare. Now most people in Western societies don't have the habit to eat anythig bitter anymore, to the detriment of our bodies which need it for optimal function.

Keep your food as natural and varied as possible and include all sorts of herbs ad spices to get those special molecules that your system needs, a bland diet of ready meals might have calories and the basic starch/protein/fat, but not the vitamins, minerals and enzymes that keep us in top form.

[gavin]

I'll vote for the sentiment in that final paragraph too, Doris, on the desirability of diversity in the diet and reducing the processed food intake.

It isn't just plant breeders in recent centuries but people for millenia have been selecting and using more palatable plants. I profess to know something of potatoes. What a boon it was to the first Andean peasant, realising that they didn't have to go through a long de-bittering process to make potatoes palatable. All they had to do was replant some of these tastier ones and come back at the end of the season. All that tiresome drying in the sun, and a month-long soaking before drying again became redundant. But traditions being what they are, even today they repeat the old ways with some special potatoes and at the same time reap the benefits of ease of storage for the lean seasons.

Yes Doris, posting on SBAi is a clear statement of continuing survival. I've never yet known a ghost to post on here, so if you can see your own posts you know that all is well. It not just a sign of life but probably something good for the soul. Highly recommended to one and all!

[nemphlar]

Nel The idea is that you take 2 piritin and 1 aspirin in spring 30 mins before sting then nothing, I did this for few years, haven't bothered for some time, but a couple stings on Sunday wouldn't know where they were by night time. I never bothered creams or potions on the sting

[Neils]

Sure Nem, I just found that with the Antihistamines I had worse reactions to the stings compared to not taking it, either in advance or after being stung.

[Jon]

Gav. That photo you posted is a Maguey or an Agave, not an aloe vera.
Use it for making pulque or tequila!

This is a bee foraging on aloe vera in my back yard in Mexico. I have about 50 plants. The gel is great for soothing a burn.
This is aloe vera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BcfljjUyt0&list=UUue8V6a4fIYZX7rf9Pn1qLw&index=13&feature=plcp), known as sabila in Mexico.

An aloe vera plant is about 18" tall. Maybe that woman is tiny!

http://www.johnstowngardencentre.ie/product_images/aloe_vera_L.jpg

[gavin]

I did wonder but (foolishly) placed my faith in Google Images. Still, quite a mouthful for Doris.

[Jon]

Well if it it on the internet it must be true!

[Neils]

It's well known that Barnacle infestation causes Hello Vera plants to grow unusually tall heights just before it snuffs it.

[Jon]

Ah yes. The GM barnacles on the bottom of the flower pot which induce giantism in the plant due to the harmful levels of imidacloprid in their shells. Never trust a barnacle. Remember the Titanic.

[gavin]

Ah yes. The GM barnacles on the bottom of the flower pot which induce giantism in the plant due to the harmful levels of imidacloprid in their shells.

Ah ... the harmful levels of imidacloprid which are too low to be measured. Shouldn't forget that bit.

Poor Doris (and many of those reading) will not have a clue what we are on about.

[Jon]

I assumed Nellie's fame in the shipbuilding risk assessment industry had gone before him.

[gavin]

I was rather surprised that I haven't seen it mentioned on the morning BBC news programme. The entertainment level was overwhelming - will probably become a cult in the years to come. Generations of teenage schoolboys will recite the Titanic/barnacles story in the playgrounds across the nation.

http://science.whoi.edu/labs/pinedalab/Animations/Animated_barnacle.gif

[Neils]

Some geezer in australia is apparently building a new Titanic, I shall have to drop him a mail and warn him.

[Stromnessbees]

Hang on, this is my thread and it's about bee stings and leatrile, in case nobody has noticed.

... where are the mods when you need them. :rolleyes:

[gavin]

I have to confess, alcohol has slightly exerted its toxic influence on my nervous system and threads are just going off at all sorts of tangents with no moderation at all.

[Bumble]

Hmm, immoderate threads. Could prove entertaining!

[gavin]

Well, yes, no comment, other than to say let's leave this one for discussing moderating the effects of stings.

[Bumble]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean my silly comment to kill the thread.

I don't get stung very often because I'm a coward and keep myself well covered, but when it happens I seem to have a delayed reaction to stings. I might notice them when they happen, but no apparent reaction for about 24 hours followed by fierce itching and some swelling.

If I get stings on my fingers they take two or three days to calm down, then a week or so later a fine layer of skin peels away from the site of the bite. I'm not sure if it's because I use antihistamine cream. I haven't tried anything else to try to reduce either the swelling or the itching.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... from the site of the bite.

Bite? Have a look at Chris's avatar - those stingless beauties bite. (Melipona - a tropical American stingless bee. The biologists here may have to correct me - not sure whether it's 'Melipona', 'Meliponinae', or 'Meliponini'.)
Kitta

[gavin]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean my silly comment to kill the thread.


Some threads deserve to die!

Melipona is the genus of these stingless bees so that does it for me. The other names will be other levels of taxonomy above the genus (I think).

[Jon]

The Mayans worked with these stingless bees and there are still some keeping them in the Yucatan peninsula.

[Neils]

Just to sidetrack the thread even more (again!) I was reading a few articles about melipona recently, apparently there's quite a resurgence in keeping them. I'm sure africanised bees play some part, but most of the reasoning given seemed to stem from a renewed interest in traditional cultural practices.

[marion.orca]

Is there a difference in the strength of the venom from each bee ? , as in some bee venom is more potent than others from the same colony. The reason I ask is, after a hive inspection yesterday, I was stung on my finger whilst in the process of suiting up and lighting the smoker, so just wasn't quite ready for the one that zoomed over on a kamikaze mission with the full intention of seeing me off before I'd even started. I then got another through my jeans on my thigh. The difference in my bodies reaction to both of these was amazing - just a small red dot on my leg - no swelling, but huge swelling on my finger and back of the hand, which hasn't really gone down at all overnight. I do take anti-histamines every day, as I have a bad reaction to midges, which I think will also help with any bee venom reaction. Or is it just that parts of the body are more sensitive than others ? one thing is for sure though - it won't be doing it again !

[gavin]

All of the above Marion. Individual bees vary at least because as they mature they have more venom in their venom sacs, maybe some are just different anyway. More than likely the exact spot stung has a bearing on how bad the effect is, and certainly some parts of the body are much more sensitive than others (I'm thinking face, tender parts of the arms and the main part of the body before anyone starts!).

Also the state of the person or his/her surroundings. I say this because the reaction to a controlled dose while I was being desensitised varied unpredictably rather than gradually changing over time as the concentration rose. I'm assuming that the dose used was controlled.

Plus there's the generally accepted fact that the first stings of the year are worse than after your body has acclimatised.

[Neils]

I agree, stings to my hands (and face!) normally swell up a lot, elsewhere it's much less of a problem. It's been explained to me before, simply that bony bits of you (like hands and face) tend to react worse because there is far less muscle to "absorb" the venom so the reaction is concentrated into a much smaller area and can only go in one direction so hence looks and feels a lot worse than getting stung on the leg or body.

I do think that venom potency varies between bees and I think that flyers tend to be the worst, also the depth of the sting and how quickly you can get it out also seems to me to make quite a difference.

I can't claim at the moment that my reaction gets any better over the course of summer, sometimes a seemingly innocuous sting will balloon up while one that feels much worse passes with hardly any reaction at all.

[marion.orca]

Thanks for the replies - I can see now the logic in the surface area of the sting and the more sensitive areas. It did puzzle me as I'd never had a reaction like that before - so I'm not, after all a peculiar form of human !

[Neils]

Well, we didn't like to say. ;)

[The Drone Ranger]

On a training course I attended a girl was stung on the top of the head
Her reaction to that sting was quite unusual
First as the bee got into her hair she ran round the group (at speed) screaming
then she ran some distance away in a straight line
When she was barely visible she turned round and ran all the way back
The venom was taking affect as she leapt in the air and came down on her bottom.
She covered her head with her hands and proceeded to cry her eyes out
She went on to be a pretty good beekeeper (well pretty at least)

The best plan if stung is alwars slide the hive tool along the skin to the sting and scape it away as soon as you fell it prick you
With jeans they can trigger a pretty crazed attack once the bees get going because they seem just the right kind of weave to let stings through
And although they don't get as deep into you other bees seem to join in the stinging much more readily till you look like a pin cushion