After a Shook Swarm

[Bumble]

We are going to shook swarm two colonies, both Langs, into new hives in a couple of weeks, and have been thinking of the best thing to do with the old brood frames which contain a fair amount of stores.

These two colonies came to us late winter, underfed and full of varroa. Apistan will have been in each hive for six weeks this coming weekend, successfully dropping about 18 per day at the worst count, which has now tailed off to one or two in a week.

We can't safely eat any of the honey, so we are planning to freeze the frames for 24 hours and then give them back to the bees, in an eke sandwiched between two crown boards, instead of offering sugar solution.

What can go wrong with this plan?

[gavin]

Lots!

If you are trying to remove residual Varroa, is 24hr enough? Bees can sometimes come back to life after a spell in the freezer. Maybe Varroa too.

Apistan could be largely ineffective and you may have a multitude of Varroa lurking under the cappings. Even a shook swarm doesn't remove them from adults. The shook swarm would remove most Varroa, but is this the best way?

Foulbrood (both kinds) and viruses and chalkbrood will be thoroughly unimpressed by a spell in the freezer.

Bailey comb change, then Apiguard or similar?

[Neils]

Agree with Gavin. If they were "full of varroa" then a drop of 18 a day doesn't sound much to me and might indicate resistant mites.

If you're intending to give them back the frames anyway then a bailey change would be a gentler way to change the combs. If you're shook swarming for general health/hygiene reasons then I wouldn't personally want to put them back into contact with the old frames at all and I'd be inclined to take the opportunity to use oxalic acid after the shook swarm before they have any brood to knock off as many remaining mites as possible.

[Jon]

If you are anywhere in the south of England Apistan has been ineffective for years.
They have found pyrethroid resistant mites in Ireland now as well.
A drop of 18 per day could well be the natural drop rate in which case the total mite infestation is likely to be huge.
If Apistan is working, you get an initial large drop as all the phoretic mites are killed, and then a fairly steady daily drop for a couple of weeks as brood and mites emerge from under cappings. the rule of thumb is that 20% of the mites are on the bees and 80% under cappings. Some people posting on the forums have reported mite drops of several thousand over a couple of weeks.
What about trying a thymol based treatment such as Apiguard? It would work well with the current high temperatures.

[Mellifera Crofter]

...We can't safely eat any of the honey, so we are planning to freeze the frames for 24 hours and then give them back to the bees, in an eke sandwiched between two crown boards, instead of offering sugar solution.

What can go wrong with this plan?


Lots!

If you are trying to remove residual Varroa, is 24hr enough? Bees can sometimes come back to life after a spell in the freezer. Maybe Varroa too.

I thought Bumble meant that he wants to put the honey combs in the freezer - in which case, I wanted to ask, 'Why?', because I have a few honey frames that I want to give back to the bees in the autumn, and meant to ask here how to do that. There shouldn't be Varroa on the honey frames, should there? Or am I completely wrong in thinking that?

Kitta

[gavin]

Might be wrong, but my assumption was that the freezing was to kill remaining Varroa in frames with mixed brood and honey.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Oh yes - a frame of mixed brood and honey. Can he cut out the honey part to return to the colony and destroy the rest of the frame - or might there be Varroa on the honey comb?
Kitta

[Jon]

Varroa mites will be in the brood under cappings as opposed to being on the surface of the comb like a nosema infection for example. I can't imagine the mites would survive 48 hours of deep freezing although as Gavin pointed out they would need more than a superficial freezing. When a colony dies with a big varroa load, the mites die with the bees although sometimes a weak colony can get robbed out by a strong one and the mites hitch hike a ride with the robbing bees.

[GRIZZLY]

Get some APIVAR (not API-LIFE VAR which is thymol based) from the Vet in Dumfries.This will definatele knock down resistant mites and will not affect any honey on the colony.You will get a shock at the number of mites killed.This treatment is a "vetinary only" miticide and is imported to this country under a special licence.I have used it now for a couple of years with great success.

[gavin]

Apivar costs £30 for 5 hives' worth and can be obtained legally under the cascade system (it is approved in another EU country) here:

http://www.bridgevets.com/bees

The active ingredient is Amitraz, a pesticide with different mode of action to the pyrethroids.

Poor Bumble. A surfeit of advice possibly, but it is worth considering that the pyrethroid strips have had their day and you need to look out for high mite populations. Shook swarm isn't such a bad idea given your possible mite problem and your number of miles south of Stonehaven.

[Bumble]

I'm delighted with a 'surfeit of advice', it's much, much better than not getting any at all. It gives me plenty to think about, and helps balance the pros and cons of the various alternatives.

Thanks also for the Apivar information.

Here's a bit more background info, which might help explain why we used Apistan.

"Full of varroa" was probably the wrong term to use. It was, initially, an assumption because of their generally poor condition, and taking other things into consideration. The bees were very small, which could have been because they were hungry (close to starvation), or because of infestation.

The previous beekeeper had used Apiguard, but we couldn't tell how carefully they had followed instructions. Pre-Apistan the drops were 1 and 3 per hive, per week. They were not treated with Oxalic Acid, so the Apistan was for insurance, as much as anything else.

I'm not wriggling, disagreeing or arguing, but we chose Apistan quite carefully. The most recent Beebase data for resistance is from 2010, when only two areas reported back. Both were green. Prior to that, running back through the maps and also checking the collated data map for 2002 through to 2010, we are in an area that stubbornly keeps a green dot, which suggests no resistant varroa. https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/maps/map.cfm As far as I know there's no other data available, but if there is, I'd be grateful to know where to find it.

I don't know enough about the biological mechanisms, but I believe the mites will only retain varroacide resistance if they need it, because it's 'expensive' for them to do. I don't know how many generations it would take for this resistance to disappear, nor how long it would take for it to be resurrected from their gene pool, if that was possible.

Back to the question - the idea of freezing the frames was to kill any spare varroa and to use the stores rather than either burning them or throwing them away, because it seems a waste. We only have space to do 2 at a time, so had considered using sulphur, to do the whole lot in one go, but as far as we know it doesn't penetrate cappings, so wouldn't kill mites inside the cells. I don't know how long they survive off the host, or after the death of bee larvae.

The inspectors like shook swarms, because it gives the bees a clean start. It does seem brutal and wasteful, and we're still swinging between doing this and a Bailey comb change. It's probably one of those decisions that will finally be made 'on the day'.

[Neils]

Even in resistant areas a one-off treatment of Apistan/Bayvarol in colonies/apiaries where pyrethoid use has been discontinued (even more helpful if surrounding apiaries also do not use it) can be effective. Resistance declines once treatment is discontinued and within 5-6 years efficiacy can be almost back to what it was pre-resistance, however high levels of resistant mites "return" very quickly, within 2-3 years of resuming treatment. On that basis and following your reasoning, it's hard to find fault in it (context is everything).

I think there are wider issues concerning pyrethoid use than simple mite resistance however, not least the retention of pyrethoids in Wax. But as a one-off treatment I still believe it has it's place in an IPM scheme. Personally I'd be looking to replace the combs whether by Bailey change or Shook Swarm afterwards.

Gavin's the geneticist but my understanding is that it's not so much the mites selecting/retaining resistance so much as the way in which pyrethoids work by "attacking" a single [group of?] nerve receptors. It's not just Varroa that is resistant to pyrethoids, New York's bed bug epidemic is also a result of pyrethoid resistance and I believe it's not uncommon in agriculture generally. Continued use simply kills off the mites susceptible to that avenue of attack leaving behind those that aren't which form the parents of then next generation so continued use simply selects for bugs that aren't affected by it. I think dosage also plays a part in the equation and there's a balancing act between trying to kill mites while not killing the bees as well.

Thymol as I understand it "attacks" mites in 4 different ways so the odds of resistance developing are greatly reduced, mites resistant to one or two avenues still succomb to the third and fourth.

That's my Layman's understanding of it and I await with trepidation for it to be shredded :D



Back to the question - the idea of freezing the frames was to kill any spare varroa and to use the stores rather than either burning them or throwing them away, because it seems a waste. We only have space to do 2 at a time, so had considered using sulphur, to do the whole lot in one go, but as far as we know it doesn't penetrate cappings, so wouldn't kill mites inside the cells. I don't know how long they survive off the host, or after the death of bee larvae.

I don't know what temperatures varroa are susciptble to, but I understand they can live for quite some time (again don't have the information to hand) without feeding or breeding. The frames can be retained and cleaned for re-use, but I think if I were to go down the route of shookswarming, I'd not want the combs back in the hive at all and would cut my losses along with the comb, a few pounds of honey for peace of mind that a shook swarm has given them a fresh start seems a reasonable trade to me though I don't disagree that a shook swarm is quite brutal in terms of brood loss.

I think if varroa is your primary concern, I would perhaps be more confident, based on your latest feedback that the Apistan has done a reasonable job of knocking down remaining mites and perhaps consider a Bailey Change instead, but a shook swarm once they're strong enough to deal with it would give peace of mind and knowledge as to the condition of the bees and the age of the combs moving forwards. How much information you have to as that might also be an influence on your decision.

[Bumble]

Yes, I'd understood that Thymol is a multi-pronged attack, so less likely to generate resistance. There doesn't seem to be any shredding of opinions, yet, so it looks as if it's correct.

Here's hoping somebody knows about the off-host longevity of varroa. Hint! ;)


...based on your latest feedback that the Apistan has done a reasonable job of knocking down remaining mites and perhaps consider a Bailey Change instead, but a shook swarm once they're strong enough to deal with it would give peace of mind and knowledge as to the condition of the bees and the age of the combs moving forwards. How much information you have to as that might also be an influence on your decision.
It's a balancing act, and ultimately a decision that only we can make, but other opinions and discussion help a lot by raising issues we hadn't thought of.

[Neils]

Bumble, no-one here is going to tell you what to do. Knowing the people who post here, if I'd said something stupid you'd have had a consensus of other options over and above. You've asked a few questions and had some answers and opinions back. At some point you have to decide what's best for your bees. No-one is going to jump on you for asking. no-one is going to jump on you for doing, but we can't tell you what to do based on a few forum posts. We can only offer advice based on the information we're given.

If you can, get a more experienced beekeeper from your association to help you out. If you can't perhaps ask one more time here for some feedback on your decision but most of all learn from it.

You ask the right questions. Ignore the wellbeing of Varroa in some respects, concentrate on the wellbeing of your bees; (at least for now).

[Bumble]

If you can, get a more experienced beekeeper from your association to help you out. If you can't perhaps ask one more time here for some feedback on your decision but most of all learn from it.
I'm lucky to have been able to team up with a couple of association members as bee buddies, we help each other out and probably spend far too long talking about our plans. We don't always agree, always go along with the owners final decision and, so far, no disasters. The club's mentors are always far too busy helping brand new beekeepers.