The Co-op's new initiative

[gavin]

On the Home page I've added an article on the Co-op's press release yesterday, and given the comments of our own Alan Teale. Alan sounded a note of caution, as did John Chapple of the London beekeepers on BBC One's Breakfast programme yesterday. Do we need to encourage more urban beekeepers? Are Bee Hauses the way to go? What is the plural of Bee Haus anyway?!

G.

[Neils]

What worries me south of the border, given the lack of any comment from either side about why they're persuing this with Omlet rather than local or national beekeeping associations is that I feel they run the risk of effectively creating a separate "association" of beekeepers, using their own type of hives and that if things start to go wrong, it'll be the local associations suddenly inundated with inexperienced beekeepers looking for help.

Granted I'm not in an area currently being targetted by the co-op, and while I admire them for encouraging people to stick hives on their own land I do have to wonder just how acute the shortage of urban beekeepers really is and question the wisdom of taking a blunderbuss approach and sticking these beehives all over the place. If nothing else, how about some consideration for those of us who're already here? On our allotment here there are already 4 beekeepers and 8 working colonies, there are at least 6 other people that I know about who also want to put hives on this site. The council here has probably put a bit of a kibosh on allotment beekeeping by insisting that people must be members of the local association AND must hold the BBKA basic certificate. The schemes themselves look like they're being run with the support of the council I guess, but I do still wonder how good an idea it is to flood an allotment with bees in the hands of very inexperienced beekeepers.

How does the scheme sit with you guys north of the border?
I get the impression that you've much more control over what sorts of bees end up in your colonies and I do wonder how well scattering potentially hundreds of new hives with bees of unknown origin around the place is likely to go down?

[Trog]

How does the scheme sit with you guys north of the border?
I get the impression that you've much more control over what sorts of bees end up in your colonies and I do wonder how well scattering potentially hundreds of new hives with bees of unknown origin around the place is likely to go down?

Like the Titanic, if they try that sort of caper here. I suspect the bees won't survive long-term but will last just long enough to pass on whatever diseases and pests they carry to the local bee population.

[gavin]

Hi Nellie

I'll have to reserve judgement on the type of bees as I've no idea of the detail of their plans. As they have supported native bee research they may know what they are doing. Bee Hauses though?! As you know, Scots generally don't have more money than sense (I suspect that it is often the money that we're short of rather than having a surfeit of sense) and so I doubt that BHs were sold in any numbers here. Why (try to) start a trend in expensive plastic hives? Doesn't seem particularly ethical to me.

I might know more after speaking to folk at a meeting tomorrow.

best wishes

Gavin

[gavin]

... but will last just long enough to pass on whatever diseases and pests they carry to the local bee population.

Like the bees traded over the internet and dispatched to ... Aberdeenshire, Wester Ross, Shetland, Lewis .... and many other places by just one southern supplier of nucs with imported Carniolan queens.

Just to repeat: I don't know what the Co-op have in mind here. They may have thought about this.

G.

[Neils]

The bit on funding research into AMM/Native Black Bees was omitted from articles down south, so i do hope the left hand knows what the right is doing. Generally I've got a lot of time for the Co-op and I'd really like to think that it's been thought through properly even if I do think the link up with omlet is an excercise in marketing over what's actually best for new beekeepers. I think in many respects its the silence from the National Associations that troubles me.

I try very hard not to jump on the bash Omlet bandwagon, but their marketing does very much annoy me and reading the issues currently with the design/build quality of the thing especially when they claim it makes beekeeping easy does get me a little hot under the collar (they are selling frames and foundation for less than Thornes though, so they might not be all bad).


Why (try to) start a trend in expensive plastic hives? Doesn't seem particularly ethical to me.
To be fair, if you buy two hives and two supers then the price isn't that much different between a Beehaus and a traditional wooden hive. I did have a quick google to try and figure out how you undertake swarm control in a Dartington/beehaus but I turned up a blank, I can only surmise it involves you turning the entire hive 180 degrees.

I'm more intruiged as to the suitability of 14x12 sized broodboxes that far North.

[Trog]

Just had a look at the beehaus website. Seems like a good design but I wouldn't want one personally. Would go nicely with an urban egglu (if that's how it's spelled) containing two designer hens. I suppose you'd have to have designer bees. Maybe little jewels on the queen's back instead of a painted spot? Like the bejewelled fish of Pompeii.
Seriously, they don't seem to be terribly realistic about what happens when you deprive the bees of their hard-won winter stores. They are not going to be laid back and sweet natured about it. Pity the neighbours trying to have a BBQ next door with a bunch of annoyed bees around. Or the fact that bees will increase then swarm ... another £500 for a second hive maybe?
Still, I'm happy to wait and see what happens ... just so long as nobody thinks it's a good idea to import bees from varroa-infested places to varroa-free ones, in whatever type of hive.

[gavin]

Hi Nellie


I think in many respects its the silence from the National Associations that troubles me.


Alan is the SBA president and you can see the doubts in his mind in the Herald piece. I don't think that we were approached by the Co-op, but I don't know everything. Given their hard line on pesticides you could imagine that they would shy away from BBKA.

G.

[Neils]

Hi Nellie

Alan is the SBA president and you can see the doubts in his mind in the Herald piece. I don't think that we were approached by the Co-op, but I don't know everything. Given their hard line on pesticides you could imagine that they would shy away from BBKA.

G.

Absolutely understand them not wanting to go to the BBKA given the difference of opinion on that front, amongst others, but the SBA isn't tainted with that partnership so it seems more than a little odd to me that the Co-op would plough into Scotland, go to the trouble of getting the council on board and possibly have completely ignored the national if not also the local Beekeeping association for that area.

Perhaps in some respects though it's that us existing lot aren't the target of the campaign so that's why they've gone elsewhere. There is still a nagging doubt thought that it's a campaign born of good intention and, being cynical, shifting a product that isn't selling very well rather than actually attempting to do something effective.

[Calum]

Bee Häuser. At the very least they are raising awareness which is a good thing.
IMHO Omlets are
over priced, difficult to recycle & have issues with humidity..
I would worry about inexperienced beekeepers not treating varroa correctly or recognising diseases. Due to the risks of spreading both, association membership should maybe obligatory.
The Dutch model of apprenticeship appeals to me.

[gavin]

Hi Calum

What do the Dutch do?

G.

[Calum]

Hi
as far as I understand they are not allowed to keep bees untill they have completed a two year course.
In the first year they don't have their own bees but get a training colony and work together with a mentor.
In the second year they get their own colony but still work with the mentor.
They have to learn to a syllabus, I think there is an exam too. At the end they are procifient in keeping bees, harvesting and marketing honey even queen raising is included.
I think they then qualify for state funds for buying equipment too. Not sure if it is as good as here though (in Bavaria we get 20% off equipment costing over 50€ for the first three years).

Scarlett Johansson a beekeeper and Stevie Vai too... But is Samuel L Jakson a beekeeper too?

[gavin]

Interesting! Imagine the fuss if you told aspiring beginners here that they couldn't get bees until they'd been through two years of training! I do know 'beginners' in their second year who are still bee-less, though not voluntarily.

G.

[Calum]

Hi Gavin,
true, I know beginners that started out lost their bees due to lack of knowledge (either adequate winter feeding or varroa treatment). Loosing their bees they gave up. Or I know a beekeeper that buys new bees every year as most of his don't make it through the winter. Either because he is to tight to spend money on feed or too lazy to treat the bees properly. For me that amounts to cruelty to animals.
I think two years is a bit much, but a mentoring system is generally good. Of course finding Mentors is another issue. Holland is small so I guess it is easier.
C.

[Trog]

I suppose the informal mentoring and teaching that goes on in local assocations is much the same as an apprenticeship, except that where two or three beekeepers are gathered together you get an awful lot of conflicting opinions!
For those of us in remote areas, mentoring is the only sensible way forward, as the cost of attending courses at a central point would be prohibitive. Indeed, for many of us it's physically impossible to attend anything that takes more than a few hours during the busy summer season (April to October).
Which is why I feel this forum's so useful, and also why I think it's vital to support local associations - no matter how small - with help and encouragement.

[gavin]

Spot on Trog.

Calum - I was meaning that I've met beginners who are following the advice of their local association and *not* buying bees in from afar and who - two years in - still do not have any bees! This just can't be right and we need to get much better, somehow, at raising bees locally.

I should add that I also have been in touch with a beginner who has ordered unsuitable bees from afar, not known what to do with them, had them die out (after spreading Varroa into a new area and crossing with locally adapted stocks), then wanting to do it all again. They didn't know any better, and I'm hoping that this forum is a way to help stop that happening again. (I'm not talking about any islanders by the way!)

[Neils]

Absolutely agree with you about local associations. Obviously can't speak for all if them but would also suggest that if the association isn't handing stuff to you on a plate perhaps try and do something. I joined the committee of ours as I felt that they weren't that good in certain areas and I could do more by getting involved than by sitting on the sidelines grumbling. Sometimes a new voice can be useful I think in our case the needs of new beekeepers wasn't really being met because so much was run and decided solely by guys with years of experience; and trying to be all things to all people and failing as a result. That being said there is an awful lot of hard work being done for nothing in local associations and I'm glad I dcided that getting more involved, not less, was the better choice.

[beeanne]

Am wholly unconvinced re: co-op plans here. I don't (speaking as a beginner) think that beginners should be encouraged to keep bees in urban /suburban back gardens (unless they face onto railway lines/motorway embankments/etc). It's too easy to get bees riled up by bad inspection technique, or to loose a swarm, or to become queenless, etc. And there are other options available for siting hives (my FIL works beside a rarely-used storage yard on an industrial estate where hives are kept). It isn't as if the only, or the best, way to encourage urban beekeeping is through getting beginners to site plastic hives in gardens.
Of course beginners are more likely to fail to treat varroa properly, fail to spot diseases, fail to manage the colony as well as they should, and all the rest of it, but if you want to increase the number of beekeepers then there has to be an increase in the number of beginners. I've made plenty of mistakes since starting last spring, and the little buzzers have survived well despite me rather than because of me: I think that this is the case with many many beginners if we're honest. But perhaps the really concerning issue shouldn't be an increase in beginners but any (potential) increase in poor beekeeping.

I really like the idea of a beginner helping with a more experienced beeks bees for a year before taking the plunge themselves (assuming the beek in question is knowledgeable enough to be up for the job, and ignoring issues of distance etc). Potentially local associations could make better use out of association apiaries. Maybe that would be a more useful thing for the co-op to set up and support. Aside from anything else, the co-op plans feel very "big ticket" rather than genuine ecological concern. Urban bumble bees are surely relatively easy to help, for example, and are also troubled native pollinators. But it's just not headline-grabbing enough though.

[Trog]

Calum - I was meaning that I've met beginners who are following the advice of their local association and *not* buying bees in from afar and who - two years in - still do not have any bees! This just can't be right and we need to get much better, somehow, at raising bees locally.

Yes, we do, but after umpteen years of trying to find varroa free bees from elsewhere, I've realised something's going to have to be done at a *national* level. We're trying to set up an association apiary to breed local bees for local beekeepers. The enthusiasm's there; the goodwill's there; the experienced beekeepers are there; the site's there; the funding's available. BUT the few of us with bees can't risk depleting them too far to make up nucs both for the association project and for the beginners desperate for bees. Yet we feel under pressure to do so because one day someone will say, 'I want bees and I'm not prepared to wait any longer', and - perfectly legally - bring in bees from outside. If we're lucky, they'll only have varroa. That's bad enough. If we're unlucky, they'll introduce genes to kept and (generations of) feral bees which will gradually erode their ability to survive an unforgiving environment.

Rant over. I'm away out to talk to my girls and see how they're doing.

[POPZ]

Yes, we do, but after umpteen years of trying to find varroa free bees from elsewhere, I've realised something's going to have to be done at a *national* level. We're trying to set up an association apiary to breed local bees for local beekeepers. The enthusiasm's there; the goodwill's there; the experienced beekeepers are there; the site's there; the funding's available. BUT the few of us with bees can't risk depleting them too far to make up nucs both for the association project and for the beginners desperate for bees. Yet we feel under pressure to do so because one day someone will say, 'I want bees and I'm not prepared to wait any longer', and - perfectly legally - bring in bees from outside. If we're lucky, they'll only have varroa. That's bad enough. If we're unlucky, they'll introduce genes to kept and (generations of) feral bees which will gradually erode their ability to survive an unforgiving environment.

Rant over. I'm away out to talk to my girls and see how they're doing.

Trog - brilliant, well said. Basically we can only perform as well as the tools (colonies) we have available - not a lot at the moment. I wonder if we should put more effort into raising awareness of the situation, not only with the membership, but those individuals who are not interested or not aware of associations?

I wonder how aware we are at a national level?

[Calum]

Hi
what about artificial insemination? Some breeders over here are making really good money inseminating their own queens (raising the queen resale value from 15 to 25 - 30+ pounds).

They are not so dependent on the weather and have a lower 'fail' rate than through natural methods, and far lower risk of contamination from 'alien' stock.
The effort involved is not as much either, and if started early in the season hooks in perfectly with swarm management (removal of bees and brood). From 30 colonies these guys are shipping 60 - 80 nucs and 150 plus queens per year (the 'pure' queen does not need pure nuc bees too).
A good strong cared for starter will supply 25 queens three weeks running easily (personal experience)...

It is a big investment. But some of the apparatus suppliers also supply training. Maybe the CO-OP could sponsor that..

[gavin]

So you could almost make a living from 30 colonies?!

That sounds like a wonderful idea - not making a living, just the thought of producing large numbers of quality queens of known parentage.

I understand that the Coop have not been in touch with the SBA or the Inverness BKA and that enquiries are being made. Of course there is no obligation on anyone to consult the local organisations, but it would have been nice if they had. Still don't know where the bees might come from.

G.

Perhaps I should just add that yesterday I was told that it wasn't quite like this - there is in fact good dialogue with the Inverness association.

[Trog]

Nor do the Co-Op, probably!

[Calum]

So you could almost make a living from 30 colonies?!

That sounds like a wonderful idea - not making a living, just the thought of producing large numbers of quality queens of known parentage.

I understand that the Coop have not been in touch with the SBA or the Inverness BKA and that enquiries are being made. Of course there is no obligation on anyone to consult the local organisations, but it would have been nice if they had. Still don't know where the bees might come from.

G.

Not quite.
After 30 you have to start paying tax on profits (although 30 is flexable that is only counting colonies for honey production).
Apparently 120 is the magic number (but selling honey alone would not do it).
I think the main problem over here would be getting sales volume if you just made your money in queens, alot are doing it.
If someone started flooding the market others would drop their prices to get shot of their stocks.
For anyone interested: http://www.besamungsgeraet.de/__en/ - in english (http://www.besamungsgeraet.de/__en/) not that I would recommend this model, not having tried any out myself.

[Stromnessbees]

Yes, we do, but after umpteen years of trying to find varroa free bees from elsewhere, I've realised something's going to have to be done at a *national* level. We're trying to set up an association apiary to breed local bees for local beekeepers. The enthusiasm's there; the goodwill's there; the experienced beekeepers are there; the site's there; the funding's available. BUT the few of us with bees can't risk depleting them too far to make up nucs both for the association project and for the beginners desperate for bees. Yet we feel under pressure to do so because one day someone will say, 'I want bees and I'm not prepared to wait any longer', and - perfectly legally - bring in bees from outside. If we're lucky, they'll only have varroa. That's bad enough. If we're unlucky, they'll introduce genes to kept and (generations of) feral bees which will gradually erode their ability to survive an unforgiving environment.

Hi Trog

Very well put!
Here in Orkney we are in exactly the same situation.To find a way forward we invited Roger Patterson from the BBKA: Last Saturday - the Beginners' Day - he gave introductory lectures and warned new beekeepers about importing bees. On Sunday -the advanced day - he explained various ways of making increase and rearing queens. His approach is very hands-on and he has made us much more confident that we will be able to satisfy the tide of new beekeepers one way or another.
One key point he makes is that a good Beginners' day will actually put off those newbies that have been looking at beekeeping with rose-tinted glasses, thereby stopping them form getting bees only to lose them in the first winter.
Another way to reduce demand for bees is by encouraging shared hives: again those who can't handle being stung will be discouraged from getting their own bees rather than getting them, finding out and then abandoning a colony.

We had lots of great advice form Roger, he completely reworked his programme to suit our conditions and needs, he even set up a completely new presentation about making increase. I think you would do well to invite him up for a similar weekend, I imagine that he would help you to work out a future strategy for Mull beekeeping, too.

Best of luck, Doris

[The Drone Ranger]

Most people here have had a different experience of new beekeepers than I have

I find they are the most interested in their bees and usually do a good job because of that.

The worst case of varroa infestation I ever saw in my life was on bees belonging to a beekeeper of 25 years experience

[Jon]

Most people here have had a different experience of new beekeepers than I have

I am with you on that one.

Almost all of the 20 people we have in the queen rearing group are relatively new beekeepers.
The 'experienced' beekeepers are often not willing to try anything new.
Most of them don't/can't do basic swarm control for gawd sakes.

The new folk are really keen to learn but obviously don't have the handling skills and the dexterity to catch queens, mark and clip, put queens in cages etc.
These are the things that they need to be taught in a patient non judgemental manner.

I have spent a lot of this year so far just demonstrating stuff and hopefully by the end of the year a few people will rise up and assume the mantle of queen raiser and be up to speed for next year. My bka does little or no practical stuff so none of the group members have seen things demonstrated before. The more confident ones should start doing the stuff for themselves.

[Neils]

I'm still a new beekeeper so I'm duty bound to agree with you. :D From my limited experience most new beekeepers are similar to me, they want to learn, want to know more and so on. We tend to be pretty crap at making honey for honey shows but seem to be far more curious when it comes to other aspects of beekeeping.

[Trog]

Hi Doris! That post you quoted goes back a long way! The association apiary's getting its first two nucs on Monday, though it means my better half going over on one ferry, camping overnight with them, then back next day, due to incompatible ferries between two different islands!

Meanwhile Mull's bees have been increasing rapidly and beginners are gradually getting their first nucs. I never really wanted to start breeding bees as it's so time-consuming in the height of the B & B season, and certainly wouldn't have time to do the really complicated stuff, but it's still a great feeling when we see a new queen mated and laying - can almost feel the relief in the colony when all's well!

[lindsay s]

The 'experienced' beekeepers are often not willing to try anything new.
Most of them don't/can't do basic swarm control for gawd sakes.

As well as the above type of experienced beekeepers I have also come across the following beekeepers.
1 The let alone beekeeper (they are convinced their bees will look after themselves and it’s interfering with nature to open up the hives)
2 The I’m too busy with everything else beekeeper (they know what to do but never get around to it, they never have enough equipment ready and will quite happily phone and tell you what they want done with their hives)
3The lazy / can’t be bothered beekeeper (they chuck a couple of supers on the hive in Summer and so what if their bees swarm at least they will get a new queen out of it)
4 The good life beekeeper (they mean well and having a hive on their allotment / small holding completes the set, they forget they are living in Orkney and not the south of England. Apologies to all south of the border.
I’m sure other types of beekeepers could be added to the list and to be quite honest bee owners would be a more appropriate name for them. See what I have to put up with. A good dose of Varroa would sort them all out.:mad::mad::mad: