Who makes the best quality frames?

[Neils]

As I put together 30-40 of the buggers last weekend and had a play with a few different suppliers I thought I'd do a quick straw poll.

Last year I bought a stack of Thornes seconds frames, never again. By time I threw out side bars with the grooves for foundation on the wrong side, or even not at all out (not a deciding factor in trying no foundation frames, honest) and wrestled with sidebars that wouldn't fit into top bars and other tales of woe I reckon I lost any saving. If I factor in my wasted time, I lost a fortune.

Handy hint from putting together the remainder last week... A dremel with the sanding attachment on it is about the perfect width for the slots on the side/top bars, so factor in another £30 or so on a tool to make the bloody things fit together :mad:

Normal Thornes frames aren't much better to be honest, you just don't seem to get missing foundation grooves, overly knotty wood but you do still get parts that don't fit together.

Maisemore: Better than Thornes for frames by a long shot imo. Sadly I think the rest of their stuff (hive parts) isn't as good as thornes.

Paynes: Bought some extra frames when I bought the poly hives and for me they're the best of the bunch so far. Stuff fits, it looks well made, they don't scatter all over the floor when you unpack the box either every things grouped by part using elastic bands and then wrapped in easy open plastic wrapping (boo!, but must less actual plastic as those industrial strength plastic packing bands everyone else seems to use).

I've never used them before, but I'm quite impressed by Paynes so far.

That's my take, anyone else? :)

[Trog]

Made up lots and lots of Thornes frames last year (for self and for assoc). Normal quality. No problems whatever. Packed by parts, elastic bands round each batch, no un-necessary packaging. I work out on the terrace using a modified B & D workbench, small hammer and a wooden mallet for encouraging side bars into top bar. Lovely as long as I remember to keep the foundation out of the sun and don't mind the odd inquisitive bee!

[Neils]

Im glad someone gets on better with them but for a few years we've been of the opinion that maisemore did better frames but thornes made better hive parts.

I definitely feel that the budget frames are a false economy though. Slightly wobbly boxes I can live with, but having to sand frame lugs is a step too far.

[gavin]

Can't say I've had any particular issues with Thornes frames, but then I've little experience with any other source. Firsts have always seemed good but seconds can have the odd piece with a knot in the wrong place. I use a thwack of the heel of a hand to force the side bars into the top bar and have never needed to trim them. Sometimes the foundation has needed trimmed but usually it is OK.

Does anyone know a good site for instructions on making up frames? Thornes seem to have mislaid theirs in the web site revamp. I'd like to point our beginners at a good set of instructions for making frames and boxes. Sorry, should have said T h * £ @ * s (wee dig there at over-sensitivity on commercialism elsewhere).

[Neils]

Did I not put up my frame assembly photos here? I'll double check and redo it if not.

[Adam]

I've bought mostly Thornes frames - I did get some from elsewhere (one of the above suppliers I think) a few years ago but can't remember where from and I think they had a thornes label on them anyway. Seconds have a few duff bits but not too bad in my experience. 14 x 12 parts need to be decent as they frames are big and heavy - and very narrow and weak where the side bar joins the top. I use 2 nails at this point rather than 1. Parts generally need to be banged together - the side of a claw hammer is what I use, they usually fit together if you hit them hard enough!. Gavin, I don't know what you hand will be like if you do that often. ( I spoke to a retired carpenter a wee while ago and his right has is knackered as he used to do the same thing with a chisel - you have been warned!)
Usually the wax fits ok. A stanley knife trims it easily enough. I did get some Thornes frames last summer where the bottom bars were too short. I called them up and received Manley bottom bars instead....

[mbc]

I bought loads from stamforham at a really good price some seasons ago ( I believe they still offer a good discount for bulk ) and the frames were good on the whole, only one or two not servicable out of many hundreds.
Hello Scottish forum by the way :)

[Jon]

Hi MBC.
Good to see you here.
Aren't you one of the native bee breeders?
There are quite a lot posting here.

[mbc]

Hi MBC.
Good to see you here.
Aren't you one of the native bee breeders?


Thank you Jon, yes thats what enticed me to this forum.

[gavin]

Excellent to see you here mbc, welcome! You'd be welcome whatever bee you prefer of course, don't want to exclude anyone. Anyone from a Celtic country, or has any Scottish relative within the last 8 generations, who once heard a Glaswegian in their newsagent or who could fly into the country within 24 hrs if they wanted to is welcome here.

Adam, my hands are the delicate, soft hands of an office worker. :)

I push the side bars into the top bar, stand the assembly upright, and hit the flat of the top bar to force it to settle down onto the side bars. I have been known to use a hammer but often don't unless it needs extra force. I've been doing this for >15 years although I have to admit that my number of hives was fairly low for much of that time. Still, it is a more gentle activity than chiselling, so I think that I'll be fine.

All this talk of frame assembly is making me nervous. I probably need to make up a few more brood box fulls for the coming season .... and supers of course

[gavin]

... or who could fly into the country within 24 hrs if they wanted to is welcome here.

Hope that I didn't exclude NZers with that remark? They are welcome too ...

[Jon]

I bought 50 Thorne seconds deeps at their stand at the ubka conference a couple of weeks ago and haven't even checked them yet.
Could have a few dog-leg deeps to put together. I think they cost about £28.
I am going to reinforce these with two strands of fishing line in order to let the bees draw more of their own comb this year.
The plan is to replace two or three frames of the darkest comb from every colony.
I did this with a dozen or so frames last year and they drew them out very quickly.

[gavin]

I wonder what hot caustic soda does to fishing line?

[Jon]

It's cheap as chips anyway and takes 30 seconds to thread through and fix with a drawing pin.

[gavin]

Quite right. I wasn't really worrying about it, just intrigued by the juxtaposition of low tech DIY comb strengthening and industrial-scale processes in beekeeping. I'm blethering now so I'll shut up.

[Neils]

Frame wire is likewise and has worked well for me so far.

[EmsE]

I've only bought Thornes frames and so long as I hit both ends of each bottom bar with a hammer a couple of times, they will slot into the side bars. Without this, they are generally too wide. My hands wouldn't be able to cope with 'thwacking' the top bar into the side bars (cringe), so again use the hammer. You just need to be careful not to hit it too hard as I've split a few side bars that way where they really are not wide enough to take the top bar. I keep any parts that I can't match up until the next supply of frames come in, hoping they'll match up with some of then.

[gavin]

Ladies with lady-like hands are definitely recommended to avoid the thwacking and use a hammer instead. ;)

You are quite right about the splitting of the side bars, worse with a hammer of course. I'm no woodworking expert (as you've probably spotted) but when the parts have been stored in a really dry place splitting seems to be a worse problem. You must struggle to find really dry places in Kilbarchan!

G.

[GRIZZLY]

Use a rubber mallet to knock frames together - heavy enough to get the most reluctant parts to fit and soft enough to avoid damage to the bottoms of side bars.Good for hive assembly too.

[gavin]

This man mostly uses brute force but finishes off with a light hammer:

http://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/assembleframe.htm

I remember finding that video when we discussed the topic on that other forum, the one that disenfranchised most of its posters. It was hard to find one (a video, not a forum) that was half decent as there are zillions of Americans on YouTube proudly showing the world how little they understand the simple process of frame assembly.

The Somerset guy gets top marks for the nice accent, though I wouldn't attach both bottom bars at first but leave one off until the foundation was in place.

[EmsE]

You must struggle to find really dry places in Kilbarchan!
G.

Lol! That's certainly true. No fear of a drought here.

[Neils]

I've only bought Thornes frames and so long as I hit both ends of each bottom bar with a hammer a couple of times, they will slot into the side bars. Without this, they are generally too wide. My hands wouldn't be able to cope with 'thwacking' the top bar into the side bars (cringe), so again use the hammer. You just need to be careful not to hit it too hard as I've split a few side bars that way where they really are not wide enough to take the top bar. I keep any parts that I can't match up until the next supply of frames come in, hoping they'll match up with some of then.
This is kind of a key point for me, granted you could take it as an advantage having such a tight fit, but I find it annoying that I have to bash Thornes frame parts together.

[EmsE]

I'd be happy not to take advantage of the tight fit too and just have a frame that go together nicely. Id get a lot more done that way but......Do they exist though? Could I ditch the hammer with the Paynes frames for example? ( waiting optimistically for a yes here) :)

[Neils]

Both batches were easy for me so they get a thumbs up from my perspective at the moment, no mallet required.

[EmsE]

...and they have a sale on just now that has a couple of types of frames included?

[Bumble]

I am going to reinforce these with two strands of fishing line in order to let the bees draw more of their own comb this year.
Having spent yet another evening hammering some Thornes frames together I've finally decided to either try to find a supplier that makes pieces that fit more accurately or change the way we do things.

We use Jumbo Langs. The frames don't have a groove down the side to anchor the wax. It seems to work, but always looks a bit fragile to begin with and we're always a little worried that the frame contents will fall out if we tilt them a bit too far in the wrong direction.

When we come to rewax, after a comb change, we're thinking of drilling the side bars, adding two or three horizontal wires, or more likely fishing line, and using just a starter strip of wax, but we aren't sure how to do it and we aren't sure if it'll make things worse.

[Jon]

Doris posted some pictures here (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?241-Double-Brood&p=1842&viewfull=1#post1842)

This thread (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?436-Is-concern-over-residues-in-foundation-warranted) also has pictures and a lot of discussion

I tried this last year and it worked well.
I used strong monofilament fishing line and drilled two holes in each side bar with a 2mm bit.
The line is held taut with 2 drawing pins.
I melted a tiny bit of brace comb to the underside of the top bar to get them started.
You need to make sure your hive is level and the best way to get evenly drawn comb is to put the new frame between two which are already drawn out.

[gavin]

When we come to rewax, after a comb change, we're thinking of drilling the side bars, adding two or three horizontal wires, or more likely fishing line, and using just a starter strip of wax, but we aren't sure how to do it and we aren't sure if it'll make things worse.

Murray has spent the winter doing that to his brood comb - wire, not fishing line. The purpose is to make his operation compatible with comb replacement in the most efficient way. You can then use heat in some form or other to melt out the old comb, caustic soda to clean the woodwork, and a simple rig to warm the wires as you drop on a sheet of unwired wax. The bees fix it to the side and top bars. Not something to do in your back garden but to take it to the experts.

As for the wiring, Murray has a wooden device that the frame sits on flat, and there is a piece that swivels to push in the side bar to ensure that everything is taut after you wire the frame and release. Maybe I should get pictures if anyone is interested.

One day you *might* have a plant in your area to do this, and as far as I can tell, in general, the further south you go from Stonehaven, in general and with a few blips on the way, the greater the need for regular comb replacement!

[Bumble]

Thank you. I have a lot of reading to do.

Jon - Apologies if the information is in the other threads, I haven't read them yet. What weight fishing line did you use?

Gavin - I think the rewaxing set-up might take a few years to get this far south, but there's no harm in optimism.

[Jon]

I think it was 30lb monofilament line I used. I still have enough to do hundreds of frames!
The heaviest you can get hold of is what you want.
Check on ebay and buy the heaviest available.

[Neils]

I'll throw a quick vote of support for the frame wire. A couple of pounds will get you enough wire for a few hundred frames by my reckoning, no danger of chewing through either.

[Troutnabout]

Only ever assembled Thornes frames, 1st and 2nd quality. no probs, my old dad made a jig to keep things square, if i can find it I'll take a pic of it. The jig worked a treat even with our 16oz Estwing hammers - no pin hammers here, we are joiners. We had a bash at making our own but the blade in the table saw was a bit blunt and resulted in more kindlers than frames :o