Cleaning Frames for re-use

[Neils]

For those who don't have the room for a burco or other industrial size receptacle for boiling up frames, what do you do to clean recovered frames for re-use?

I was thinking of getting a catering size soup/stock pan on the cheap from somewhere, getting the water to the boil on the cooker then transferring it to a mobile gas ring I have set up out in the back. Other than the obvious caveat about lugging a huge pan of boiling water out to the garden is this feasible? I don't have huge volumes of frames needing cleaning at the moment, but if I don't start to get on top of it soon I will have (and I need more frames!).

As a linked question, if you're recovering frames that have combs of brood, do you bother trying to reclaim the wax or just chuck it? I hear chickens are supposed to be very good at clearing these kind of frames but my only encounter with them tends to involve a secret blend of herbs and spices.

[EmsE]

I've been clearing mine just by scraping any wax and propolis off with a knife as I don't have a container big enough to take a frame, let alone a few of them. It is time consuming but as I don't have many to do yet, it's not been too bad- quite therapeutic actually.
I've given up on trying to extract the wax from brood combs until I build a solar extractor. (My chickens won't go anywhere a frame from the hive:confused:) Once the extractor is built I'm hoping I can use it to use it to clean the wax off the frames too?

[Mellifera Crofter]

... As a linked question, if you're recovering frames that have combs of brood, do you bother trying to reclaim the wax or just chuck it? ...

I've been trying to extract the wax from brood combs using a double boiler - but all I got was slumgum, hardly any wax at all (and I did not even think the combs were that old yet) - so that wasn't worth the effort. I then used the remaining old combs as fire lighters. Last year I put some on the compost heap. As far as I know they've composted away.

Kitta

[chris]

I cut out the wax that cuts out easily, then blowtorch the frame letting all the wax that's left run off.When the frame looks nicely scorched (like my fingertips) I judge it ready.If the wax cut out seems ok, then it goes in a bin for use as starter strips. Otherwise I just throw it out.

[Neils]

I've got a few colonies on old comb that I'm intending to change this year. For a few frames I've used scorching before, but I just didn't fancy having to do 20-30+ frames using scrape and scorch if I didn't have to, especially as one colony in particular has a lot of chalk brood which I'm keen to make sure doesn't get recycled back into another colony down the line.

don't really like the idea of losing that wax, but perhaps with combs containing brood the best option is to just bag and bin them?

[EmsE]

If there's any sign of disease etc, I'd just bin them otherwise you'll keep the infection and risk it spreading to other hives.

When I've tried to recover wax from the brood comb by soaking it in rain water then heating, hardly any wax was recovered and felt it was both a waste of time and gas. I've read that the solar extractor recovers more so am going to give it a go and if not that great then at least I'll have something to clean my frames with without ruining my kitchen knife..... That is if we get any sun over in the west this year, it's been pretty poor so far:(

[Mellifera Crofter]

I've got a few colonies on old comb that I'm intending to change this year. For a few frames I've used scorching before, but I just didn't fancy having to do 20-30+ frames using scrape and scorch if I didn't have to ...

In this thread (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?422-Cleaning-supers&p=8605#post8605) we talked about using acetic acid when re-using brood frames. So, if you don't want to scorch those 30-odd frames, can't you use the acetic acid treatment on all those empty frames? Does it matter that they're without comb? That said - I haven't yet treated any frames with acetic acid, so I don't know whether it's an easier option.
Kitta

[Neils]

If there's any sign of disease etc, I'd just bin them otherwise you'll keep the infection and risk it spreading to other hives.


Hence wanting to boil them. Anything more serious than a bit of chalk brood and I'd agree with you.

I was going to use acetic acid on the super frames but I'll double check whether it's effective against Chalk brood.

[EmsE]

The frames, I agree with but I still wouldn't recover any of the wax from the brood comb even with chalk brood, unless it was a really light case- I just don't think it would be worth it.

[Neils]

That seems to be the general consensus. I don't re-use brood wax for beekeeping, it's strictly for polish, candles etc. The solar extractor's done a pretty good job of separating out the wax from old brood frames without brood, but I'd imagine brood in that would be pretty disgusting to have to deal with. A whole brood box worth of frames should yield a reasonable amount of wax though and seems a shame to chuck it away.

[nemphlar]

Around this time last year I had very high loses N C I think, and stacked the brood boxes with frames, 8 in total with2 trays of glacial acetic acid around a litre worth. The point is I'm not convinced it will have reached every crevice and I won't use them again until they are boiled or scorched, bit of a waste of time really now I reflect on it.

[Jon]

Acetic acid is very effective against both types of nosema, but N Ceranae is particularly susceptible.
The fumes are heavier than air so it is best to put it at the top of any stack.
Freezing is also effective at getting rid of nosema spores.
I think it was Randy Oliver who pointed out that leaving equipment out in the freezing cold for a month is very effective as well.

he has a huge amount of info here (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-5-alternative-treatments/).

[gavin]

Perhaps this is a good time for me to pipe up and declare that those of you interested in recycling frames will have the possibility of using a new facility in the Blairgowrie area. The idea is that a low-cost service will permit beekeepers to recycle their frames in a way that ensures freedom from active bee pathogens. For cross-wired frames an inexpensive re-waxing service will also be on offer. We will have the equipment to recover the greatest amount of wax from comb, and it is well known that the process leaves the wax safe to use without worry of active pathogens in the foundation. Ideal for larger-scale beekeepers and anyone who can club together (eg via a local association) to take a decent batch to the plant. Details later ... last week we interviewed for a person to drive a lot of this forward.

Gavin

[Neils]

Sounds good Gavin, that was my other option I suppose, I know thornes sell a steam contraption for for a fairly hefty price, but was considering whether a steam wallpaper stripper would generate hot enough steam to consider frames "sterilised" or just cleaned of wax. While the solar extractor is good for chucking in the odd comb here and there, it's simply not big enough to cope with combs in any volume.

Do you happen to know how hot you'd need to get steam to consider the frames free from common lurgy?

[gavin]

Sterilised is a tall order. Some viruses and some bacterial spores will even survive 20 min at 120C in an autoclave (although most wont!). For your purposes I would imagine that destroying most viruses, chalkbrood and Nosema spores is all you need and a good, penetrating blast of steam may achieve that. EFB cells live for years on comb. However, unlike AFB spores, they are not *that* robust so what you propose should reduce the number of any that have strayed onto your comb and so reduce the chances of a symptomatic infection getting underway. Given that you've seen EFB locally and are a bright lad you will not have any serious cases of EFB or AFB amongst your frames - so knocking back common pathogens will be a great help and 100% efficacy isn't really needed given that the pathogens you will have are abundant and widespread anyway. I'd have thought.

The planned plant will use steam jets to melt out comb, boiling caustic soda baths to render the woodwork non-infective, and rinses to remove the caustic. The woodware going through that comes out totally clean, and that freedom from deposits as well as the effect of the caustic on pathogens combine to give safe, clean, recycled frames.

[nemphlar]

Great link thanks Jon , feel a bit more confident in the acetic acid treatment, also save me scorching 100 frames. I've already made up the thymol mix for start of year.

[Neils]

I think for frame re-use then that's probably good enough If I thought I had either FB I'd be using those frames for firelighters if that decision hadn't already been made for me.

For my own use and being able to be reasonably confident that chalkbrood and Nosema especially are gone will do me. I'm not concerned about the wax, only cappings wax goes back into hives/foundation and if I can use steam them I'm less concerned about sticking frames of brood in the thing

I'm going to cost up a DIY version and see how that compares to what Thornes are offering.

[Neils]

I think it was Randy Oliver who pointed out that leaving equipment out in the freezing cold for a month is very effective as well.

he has a huge amount of info here (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-nosema-twins-part-5-alternative-treatments/).

I use the cold weather as my "treatment" for wax moth. All the supers get stacked on sealed floors and after one stack got blown over this winter will be strapped down in future :D

[Jon]

Trouble is we have not had any cold weather this winter. Only a couple of nights below zero.
Last year we had a week of temperatures down to -12 every night.

[Jimbo]

Gavin,
I have seen a similar setup in Denmark where they render the wax with steam then clean the frames with boiling caustic soda. The frames came out like new. This will be a great facility for beekeepers. In Denmark they also used the wax to make their own foundation and sold back to the beekeepers.
Anybody got any views on using Virkon for sterilising the frames after scraping off the wax?

[Jon]

I use virkon for cleaning any wooden bits like floors and brood boxes. I make up a litre or two and spray with a garden sprayer. I leave the stuff for half an hour and then rinse clean.

[gavin]

Good to see your enthusiasm Jimbo! There was a mission for two of those involved to Denmark to see a couple of places in operation.

[Neils]

You never mentioned that bit!

[gavin]

Wisnae me though!

[Adam]

If I thought I had either FB I'd be using those frames for firelighters if that decision hadn't already been made for me.
Me too.