Re-queening

[GRIZZLY]

Whats the best i.e. the most reliable method of re - queening strong stocks.:confused::confused:

[Jon]

I don't think there is any way of re-queening which guarantees 100% success.
The double chute cages are good as bees can get in to the queen before the queen gets out into the full colony.
The entrance with the short plug of fondant lets in the workers but is too narrow for the queen to get out.

913 914

If I had a really important queen I did not want to lose I would make up a nuc with young bees and combs of emerging brood and introduce her via one of these cages. I would build up the nuc by adding frames of emerging brood at weekly intervals.

If requeening a full colony, I remove the old queen, wait a week, and then remove all queen cells. At this point I introduce the queen in the cage. If the bees are showing a lot of aggression towards the queen I wait at least 48 hours before opening the plastic tab on the cage to expose the fondant.

But like I said, there is no foolproof method and like everyone else I lose the odd queen on introduction.

[Mellifera Crofter]

About a year ago I asked about the Steve Taber/Albert Knight/John Dews Method of queen introduction as described by David Cushman. He claimed a 100% success rate with that method. The Cushman pages have been updated and the diagram is now here (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/obsboard.html), and the description of the method - as well as many others - is here (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/queenintro.html) (near the bottom of the page).

I noticed that I've posted my question in the wrong forum - but there are a lot of good replies in the thread (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?442-Queen-introduction) about queen introduction. However, my original question was not answered. It was, why would aggressive bees feed a queen who has no food or helpers with her in the cage (as in the ST/AK/JD method)? I'm still curious about that.

Kitta

[GRIZZLY]

Sorry all .Didn't spot the other thread on the same subject.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Well, I filed it in the wrong place. Still, if anybody can answer my original question, that would be great.

[fatshark]

I use the large white Nicot cages sold by Modern Beekeeping (http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/163/large-queen-introduction-cage) (and others, though that's where I got mine from as they're the best price I could find). These are squarish, about the area of a box of large kitchen matches. You place it over a patch of emerging brood, introduce the queen through the small entrance, which is then sealed, and then leave them for a week or so. I usually then open the entrance and let her out in her own time. I've used this to successfully requeen very strong and pretty aggressive hives.

A few hints ... hold the cage in place with a couple of rubber bands to discourage the workers tunnelling under the edges. Also remember where you place the entrance cover down when introducing the queen or releasing her. I lost them all in long grass last year and have botched covers made of duct tape and tinfoil now.

I think these work well because the emerging brood immediately accept the new queen. I've used this method to requeen totally broodless hives (queenless for a month or so) by introducing a frame with a fist sized patch of emerging brood and one of these cages.

[gavin]

Wonderful! I need some of these cages ....

[susbees]

Nicot large cage...sometimes bees do chew their way under or through the back. Not seen it but not used mine much yet.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[Neils]

Ooh, Handy Thread.

I know the basic principle of re-queening, but could someone talk through their method?

i.e. You've got a queen right colony that you want to requeen, what are your basic steps/timings and at what point, when you know they've accepted the new queen, would you go through a colony and think "Yep, they're much better with this new queen than the old one"? (or not as the case may be)

[Beehive]

We successfully re-queened a couple of hives last year. We made sure our bottom hive was queenless and removed the super, leaving the brood box. We placed a sheet of newspaper on before placing the brood box with the new queen on top. We left them for a good few days and the next time we looked in the queen had moved to the bottom box and was laying well. We left them on the double deep. Not sure if we were just fortunate but if we need to re-queen this year we will do the same.

[gavin]

One of mine went queenless last summer then very hard to manage - it had always been tetchy. Uniting with a nuc via the flour method wasn't successful (I should have known) so the other spare nuc went above newspaper on a QX over the supers over a queenless brood box of very wound-up bees. Super bees are known to be more welcoming. They united peaceably after the QX was removed a week later, and another week later the nuc was moved down to the centre of the old brood box.

Excited bees in early summer can be hard to requeen. There is something to be said for doing the requeening in late summer if possible.

[Neils]

To be more specific then :)

I have a colony that if last year is anything to go by probably needs a super now, has a lot of chalk brood and were less than pleasant (first gen Carnie crosses I think) to deal with. Their comb is two years old so off the back of that I'm intending to shook swarm them soon(tm) to get them on new comb and give them another dose of OA but I want to replace the queen (2011 vintage) with a, hopefully, better vintage from the allotment bees.

This is hence going to be a busy 14x12 that I want to requeen from an apidea mated queen. I've taken on board the advice to give newly mated queens at least a couple of weeks to get "up to speed", so if we assume that I have a hair roller cage, an up to speed, apidea resident, mated queen and a grumpy colony that I want to put that queen into, how would people go about it?

My thinking thus far was:


1) get a newly mated queen for a couple of weeks in an apidea
2) Remove the existing queen from "grumpy colony"
3) Leave it a week, re-inspect, remove all queen cells
3a) Leave it another week?
4) Put queen (and a few attending bees?) in hair roller, plugged with nice new Ambrosia fondant.
5) Put roller in queenless hive
6) come back in a week? and see if they've accepted her

This list superseded by one below (sorry for the pun)
The timings on 1) depend on 2 & 3 in some respects. if you have an egg laying queen in an apidea is that the "go" to make the hive you want to re-queen queenless?

[gavin]

Maybe leave the Apidea new queen for three weeks so that she's completed a full cycle of brood.

A Butler cage or similar would allow you to lay the cage on the top bars which gives her extra protection from foot biting. You could cover the end with plastic until the bees look comfortable with the new queen, then take it off to expose the fondant (bakers, queen fondant a la Dave Cushman, whatever).

But I'm no expert, just the guy who made lots of mistakes last year.

[Neils]

That's where point one comes into play. if you see a decent number of eggs in the apidea(s), is that the time to make your target colony queen less? They'll want to make emergency queen cells and you obvious don't want them to make anymore so you have to leave them a week, remove the cells they've already made and now you should have a queenless colony that can't do anything about it.

Two factors now come into play (in my head)
1) You don't want a queen coming into full lay in an apidea, surely (yes, the number of bees in there and the size of the box will box constrain her laying and prevent them swarming). Frame swapping etc etc will obviously help here, but if you've got a queen bursting at the seams, is there any negative impact to keeping her in an apidea?

2) Once a colony is hopelessly queenless you've got 17 days + x time before they go drone laying workers, you took the queen out a week ago so all the brood is at least one week old, the youngest larvae has to be 4 days old give or take a few hours, so in 17 days time you have no more brood in your target colony and at that point presumably the lack of pheremone off the brood and queen will start to allow Drone Laying Workers.

[Jon]

Nellie, that list looks good to me but you don't have to wait a week after removing the queen cells. A few hours should do.
When you put the cage in, leave it closed for at least 24 hours before letting them start to eat through the fondant plug.
If they are still acting very aggressively towards the cage after 24 hours, wait another 24.

With a queen in an apidea, you need to see that brood is normal, ie no drone brood in worker cells and not too many gaps, no chalk brood.
That means you have to wait at least 9-10 days until brood is sealed. And it is better to wait another 10 days. I think I posted a link to a paper confirming this somewhere on the site.

An apidea can turn laying worker in 3 weeks but a full colony is more likely to take 5 or 6 weeks.

Paper here (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/research_australia.htm). Scroll down to the Rhodes and Denney para.

[Neils]

Thanks guys, so let's try it again.

1) get a newly mated queen for a couple of weeks in an apidea, Check the brood pattern, wait for sealed brood and see if you'd consider it normal.
2) Remove the existing queen from "grumpy colony"
3) Leave it a week, re-inspect, remove all queen cells
4) Wait a few hours then put queen in hair roller/queen cage, plugged with fondant covered in foil to prevent access to the plug.
5) Put roller in queenless hive
6) Leave it 24-48 hours, remove the foil from the plug to allow the colony to reach the queen.

I guess obvious question is, how do you know they're acting agressively to the new queen? balling the cage?

[Jon]

That looks good, and if you want to be even more sure, do an artificial swarm on the hive you want to requeen and introduce the queen to the queenless part which has the brood and non flying bees. It is always easier to requeen young bees.

The best strategy is to have spare queens all the time. I used to get really annoyed when a queen got killed on introduction but with spare ones you just try again.

>I guess obvious question is, how do you know they're acting aggressively to the new queen? balling the cage?

balling or stinging the cage. It is a good sign when there are only a few bees around the cage rather than hundreds.

[Neils]

Ok, so we could do a
3a) get rid of the flying bees if possible

perhaps?

[Mellifera Crofter]

... A Butler cage or similar would allow you to lay the cage on the top bars which gives her extra protection from foot biting. ...


...When you put the cage in, leave it closed for at least 24 hours before letting them start to eat through the fondant plug. If they are still acting very aggressively towards the cage after 24 hours, wait another 24. ...


...4) Wait a few hours then put queen (and a few attending bees?) in hair roller/queen cage, plugged with fondant covered in foil to prevent access to the plug. ...

... and a few attending bees - that's what I also don't understand. Do we, or don't we, add attending bees? I'm particularly curious about that cage I've mentioned earlier because the queen can remain caged up for so long - but what is the general advice in any queen introduction?

Sorry to be harping on about this.

Kitta

[gavin]

Keep harping, please!

There is a whole book written on this and I've borrowed it from our local association's library but not had time to read it yet. Snelgrove's The Introduction of Queen Bees. However, at this moment in time I'm a queen introduction numpty.

[Neils]

Kitta, stuff I put in italics are things that I don't know yet. Should a queen have a few attending bees or can you just plonk her in a cage? Does it matter either way?

I suspect you don't need attending bees. If she's accepted she'll be taken care of while the plug is sorted out.

Don't let me monopolise the questions, ask away :)

[Jimbo]

I also have the Snelgrove book that I read a few years ago all it did was confuse me! There are so many permitations to introduction.
I have used 2 methods. The sheet of newspaper method and using a plastic mailing/introduction cage. Both methods have worked quite well, however they are not 100% foolproof

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks Gavin, Nellie, Jimbo - I suppose, when I need to introduce a queen again, I'll just follow my instinct as to whether she needs attendants or not, and hope I've made the right choice. Perhaps, as Nellie said, it doesn't matter either way - but I don't understand David Cushman saying to cage her without attendants and that she can be kept there for up to two weeks. In such a case, my instinct would say: 'Give her helpers.'

Kitta

[Jon]

In such a case, my instinct would say: 'Give her helpers.'

Kitta

I don't think it really matters one way or the other but I leave them in.

The key thing is that there is no foolproof method of queen introduction which probably explains why there are so many different suggestions. Like a lot of things in life, the trick is to manipulate as many variables as you can in order to move the probability of a successful introduction in your favour.
It's the same principle as flooding your neighbourhood with good drones. It does not guarantee a successful mating but it swings the odds more in your favour.

[fatshark]

I'm pretty sure I've read to NOT add the attending bees - yes, just checked - page 158 of Hooper 4th edition.

"Queens should always be put into the introduction cages on their own, never with their accompanying workers. These workers may try to defend the queen against strangers and in the end get her killed."

I reckon Hooper re-queened a few more times than I have and am happy to follow his advice ... :)

[Jon]

I reckon Hooper re-queened a few more times than I have and am happy to follow his advice ... :)

bet you a fiver he still got some killed on introduction!

[gavin]

Snelgrove isn't clear on the question but differs from Hooper. p72:

The queen may be caged in the hive without attendants. She then has to feed herself with candy and wait for proper food until the hive bees begin to feed her. The same objection holds if she is provided with an escort of newly emerged bees*. It is usual to introduce her with her original escort but for several reasons it is better to provide her with a new cage and candy, and attendants from the stock into which she is to be introduced.

* newly emerged bees will not have matured hyopharyngeal glands

The book is full of many complex variations, cataloguing the detail of the methods used by a wide range of people, when simpler recommendations may have been better. I presume that a small sample of bees from the recipient stock is unlikely to contain individuals disposed to pick a fight with her and that is why it is OK to use attendants from there.

[Jon]

This one here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?21-Releasing-the-Queen

I just opened the cage and let her walk out.
She headed that colony for the next year until I lent it to a friend who needed more drone colonies . He requeened it with a Galtee daughter and gave me back my queen in an apidea.
Hmmm. I need to get that colony and another one back!

[EmsE]

The same objection holds if she is provided with an escort of newly emerged bees*. It is usual to introduce her with her original escort but for several reasons it is better to provide her with a new cage and candy, and attendants from the stock into which she is to be introduced.

The book is full of many complex variations, cataloguing the detail of the methods used by a wide range of people, when simpler recommendations may have been better. I presume that a small sample of bees from the recipient stock is unlikely to contain individuals disposed to pick a fight with her and that is why it is OK to use attendants from there.

If adding attendants from the reciprient stock to the cage, Would the size of the cage prevent them from attacking the queen, or would it be that the numbers you put in be small enough not to pose a threat to her?

[gavin]

I'm guessing of course, but...

- could be insufficient numbers to damage her
- could be that a small proportion of bees initiate an attack on the queen, and a few selected for the cage are unlikely to include any
- could be that workers stuffed in a cage become less aggressive as they are unsettled, worried, nervous
- maybe, as you say, the size of the cage itself reduces the risk of balling

[Jon]

- maybe, as you say, the size of the cage itself reduces the risk of balling

A queen occasionally gets stung (see gammy leg thread) but they are usually killed by balling and the cage prevents this.
I always use attendants from the colony the queen is taken from.
Loads of times I have seen a queen attacked by a couple of bees from another colony so I would rate that a bit risky.
If you put in newly emerged bees they will be happy with the first queen they encounter but as mentioned above, I don't know how well they feed the queen.
I think grooming is also important and you don't get grooming without attendants. I have seen the odd dead queen stuck in a piece of fondant or covered in honey.

[fatshark]

Here's another method from "Breeding Queens" by Gilles Fert (who also recommends the Nicot cage).

Introduction in a bag made of newspaper gives excellent results. Place 35 to 50 bees in a bag 20 x 15 cm in size, and shake briskly for 30 seconds. This makes this micro-colony buzz like an orphan colony. Then put the queen in with them and close the bag, placing it between two frames. The bees will nibble away the paper, freeing the prisoners, and the queen, within a few hours.

Has anyone tried this?

Fert also recommends removing the accompanying bees when using an introduction cage ... It is also possible to use the transit cage to introduce a queen. In this case, remove the escort bees and the cork stopper on the candy side.

I found this while searching for an English copy of the book ... if anyone knows where it's available (it's not from Gilles Fert directly) please PM me.

[Jimbo]

I have heard of the paper bag method. One of our older and experienced beekeepers in our association uses this method all the time. He uses a variation. He makes a large paper bag held together with staples. He finds the queeen he wants to introduce and insets the whole frame with the queen and all the bees on that frame. He then places the frame inside the strong hive after stapling the bag to close it.
Last year I gave him a mated queen still in an apidea. He just lifted all the mini frames from the apidea with the new queen and placed them in the paper bag and inserted into a queenless hive. He reported back that the introduction went OK

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks for all the interesting replies to my question. I've learned new things: that the queen can, in fact, feed herself; about hyopharyngeal glands; about the importance of grooming; and about a lot of other methods of requeening.

It's helped me to decide that, when the time comes, I'll follow Jon's lead and cage a new queen with a couple of helpers from her own colony. That makes sense to me. I suppose that by the time the queen is accepted by the new colony and released, her helpers will also have been accepted.

Kitta