Drone Congregation Areas

[Stromnessbees]

As I am keen on the conservation of the dark bee I have become interested in drone congregation areas (let's call them DCAs). In the long run it would be great if we could identify areas which are dominated by native bees and place mating nucs near their DCAs.

At the moment there seems to be little information about Scottish DCAs available, and I wonder if we can get together and create a bit of a database about them. Important points would be location and a description of the topography as well as times of activity and favourable weather conditions.

I have to admit that I have never observed one myself yet, but I feel this is quite a neglected subject in our knowledge about our bees. I also feel that with a bit of publicity we could get other naturalists interested, and more eyes on the lookout would certainly be helpful.

Anybody else interested?
Doris

[gavin]

Little experience myself, but I know a man who does. His DCA is around the tree tops beside and over a stream just to the south of a raised grassy area near a big house. I couldn't have predicted where it would be, despite having read Beowulf Cooper's book where he gives several examples.

Raised areas with a south-facing aspect? The kind of place Picts put their carved stones?!

Perhaps for Orkney and other breezy and bee-sparse places this is an important issue. If you go as far as doing the Karl Showler long pole trick with a cotton wool 'queen' soaked in queen substance, I demand photos for the forum!

[Stromnessbees]

How about a map where we can enter known DCAs?
(I can't see much of a security problem in releasing that kind of information.)

Would it be possible to use a Google map or even Google Earth for that purpose?

Doris

[Calum]

Hi
the problem we have with DCAs here is that all drones go to the same places. You really need bee free areas where you can bring drones and queens to. I would have thought the outer isles / Orkneys / Shetlands would be bee perfect. (sorry just had to).
Calum

[gavin]

.... would be bee perfect. (sorry just had to).

I think that was the first one! Yes, those who strive to keep Amm pure in mixed areas sometimes try to encourage apiary vicinity mating for that reason (letting the bees out in the early evening for example). However if you think that your area is populated by the strain you wish to keep, and especially if drones are sparse, then knowing where the DCAs are may help. I'm told that queens usually fly south on a gently increasing incline, so if that is true (the man who told me may be along to help us out one day) parking the nucs a couple of hundred m to the N might be the best place.

A map would be great if there are enough people around who know of DCAs, but the one I'm talking about would have to remain private as the site is a bit sensitive.

G.

[Stromnessbees]

Hi
the problem we have with DCAs here is that all drones go to the same places. You really need bee free areas where you can bring drones and queens to. I would have thought the outer isles / Orkneys / Shetlands would be bee perfect. (sorry just had to).
Calum

Calum, there are two problems with your suggestion:

Firstly we wouldn't want the traffic of bees to the islands due to the inevitability of importing varroa and maybe other diseases.

Secondly theses mating stations would have to have a great variety of drone colonies, as queens should be mated with drones from as many different colonies as possible.

What kind of bees do you have and do you rear your own queens?

Doris

[Calum]

Hi Doris,

I appreciate your point about the traffic of bees. I have carnica bees, last year I reared 30 queens. Of those I let 20 mate around my bee stand in single frame nucs. The other ten were from an exceptionally good colony I bought a frame of open brood from. I sent them up into the mountains in (the alps) for mating with selected drones from the regional beekeepers association. A setup like that does not exist in scotland but could be a nice project for an area that has no bees at all. - Do Coll or Tiree have any bees at all? That would be a nice day out for all the beekeepers from Mull! :)

just food for thought

Calum

[Jon]

There is some very good information about DCAs here.

http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=603


I sent them up into the mountains in (the alps) for mating with selected drones from the regional beekeepers association.

To pick up on Calum's point the article states:


In flat country, it was impossible to get pure matings if there were other colonies in the neighborhood; at least 6 km must be free of bees or inhabited by the same strain in order to prevent crossing. A physical barrier of over 500 m seemed to be necessary to prevent colonies as close as three km away from intermingling. Drones, and apparently also queens, will not willingly fly over water (Ruttner and Ruttner 1965b).

[linchpin]

Interesting it would be to have a map but what about rogue drones from colonies not so used to DCA's or in there genetics to use them opting for solo hunts ! ? You can also set up your own DCA within Apiary, metal sheeting sitting in full sun creat's a thermal, The apiary drones use this to play and test flights/ enough roof's also creats the desired effect without the need for anything.

Gavin has a point about some area's being sensetive, Some folks would'nt want mini nucs appearing all over the place especially since we have Foulbroods to deal with, Isolation these days is not as hard to find since there is evidence of a shrinking bee population,again depends on how you veiw things.

L.P.;)

[Jon]

Selected drone congregation areas were regularly observed for five years to verify that the dimensions of these congregation zones did not change greatly during this time (Ruttner and Ruttner 1968). When strange colonies were introduced into the vicinity, new drones were found at the congregation areas on the first day in equal proportion with local drones. This was true for congregation zones both near and distant to the apiary (2-3 km). Drones of different races of Apis mellifera (carnica, ligustica, mellifera, intermissa) were found at congregation areas, sometimes several races at one place (Ruttner and Ruttner 1972).

I thought that this was very significant.
If someone happens to introduce a colony with a different race of bee, aggressive bees or generally undesirable bees, you are going to have problems with queen mating from day one.

[Trog]

A setup like that does not exist in scotland but could be a nice project for an area that has no bees at all. - Do Coll or Tiree have any bees at all? That would be a nice day out for all the beekeepers from Mull! :)

just food for thought

Calum
I've only just seen this. Coll has bees, I gather, but none known on Tiree (no trees there either). Not a day trip these days as the ferry no longer calls at Tobermory (unless of course one hires a boat to go direct!). Instead you have to go to Oban, stay overnight, then travel from there, all the way along the sound of Mull, past the home you left the day before. Daft or what?

I must take a look to see if we have a DCA over our garden. South facing large slate roof, tall spruce trees ..

[gavin]

You can also set up your own DCA within Apiary, metal sheeting sitting in full sun creat's a thermal

Do you think that brings benefits LP? Could you really induce apiary vicinity matings with drones from the same apiary by laying out something that heats up in the sun - horticultural black plastic would be easier than metal sheeting I'd have thought.

[Stromnessbees]

Drone flyways (or highways?) - some great information in that article, thanks for posting it, Jon.

I was surprised to read that there were always several DCAs for an apiary, and how much information is already out there. When I have more time I'll try to track down some of the literature quoted there.

Meanwhile the very first drones of the season have made their appearance at my own apiary (which is miles from anybody else's), just in time to see to my supercedure queen which is due for her mating flights next week.

Doris

[drumgerry]

. A setup like that does not exist in scotland but could be a nice project for an area that has no bees at all. Calum

Calum - I must admit a similar thought has occurred to me. And there are unfortunately plenty of beeless areas in Scotland. Inspired by Bro Adam and his Dartmoor mating apiary, I had thought for my own purposes (in the long term) of perhaps trying to approach the Crown Estate Commission who run Glenlivet Estate for an out apiary. I'd be fairly confident (if using near native breeding stock) that I could maintain a pure strain in an upland area like that. I'd have thought there'd be plenty of similar mainland areas in the West Highlands,Sutherland and Caithness.

And as a strange coincidence I was reading the chapter in Beowulf Cooper's book on drones and DCAs today whilst my daughter was ice skating - brrr!! As to locations of DCAs he gives grid references of locations throughout the UK including Scotland which he and Mobus recorded. Admittedly this was in the seventies and much has changed but it'd be interesting to see if any were still in operation.

Gerry

[Trog]

It would be a bit of a shame if folk started moving nucs from varroa-rich areas to places they thought there were no bees/beekeepers. In places where there's no varroa (and, I gather, in some places where there is varroa) there are still feral colonies and in the more 'remote' areas there are beekeepers who are not SBA members or members of a local association, so no way of checking whether or not there are bees in the area. In other 'remote' areas, folk have bought package bees because they were unable to find local stock, and those would happily mix with your native stock!

[drumgerry]

It would be a bit of a shame if folk started moving nucs from varroa-rich areas to places they thought there were no bees/beekeepers. In places where there's no varroa (and, I gather, in some places where there is varroa) there are still feral colonies and in the more 'remote' areas there are beekeepers who are not SBA members or members of a local association, so no way of checking whether or not there are bees in the area. In other 'remote' areas, folk have bought package bees because they were unable to find local stock, and those would happily mix with your native stock!

Fair point Trog. I would never advocate the movement of bees into varroa free areas and didn't anywhere in my message suggest doing so.

In Moray and most of the rest of mainland Scotland Varroa is endemic so I would have no qualms about moving bees to upland areas. Are you suggesting that we shouldn't be moving bees to the heather either? Correct me if I'm wrong as well but isn't Eric trying to harvest the genes from known survivor feral colonies in his area and why wouldn't we want to move our bees to within reach of other feral colonies (in varroa areas) to accomplish similar?

Your point about package bees is well made but are we to do nothing for fear of them? A conversation with the local postie would tell me who does and does not have bees in the area.

In any case, doesn't Beowulf suggest that native bees are adapted to cool weather, within or local to, apiary mating? Should we be concerned about queens from these native colonies ranging far and wide to mate with drones in the ordinary course of typical Scottish weather? He suggests that DCAs are typically in use during long periods of settled weather. And I think we know how many of those we get! ;)

Gerry

[gavin]

In any case, doesn't Beowulf suggest that native bees are adapted to cool weather, within or local to, apiary mating?

How much evidence is there for this, does anyone know? In other words, what is the likelihood of success of an association apiary trying to focus on Amm when the area is dominated by beekeepers importing large numbers of packages and queens from abroad?

G.

[Jon]

I have never come across any research re apiary mating other than the Beowulf Cooper observations.
It looks like you might be heavily outnumbered by Carnica drones.
Establishing a mating apiary with a few good drone producing colonies some distance away and using apideas for mating queens might be the only hope.

[gavin]

Yeah, but where would be safe. I now know that all three of the bigger commercial beekeepers are importing and some packages are being installed tonight. Until now one of them had not imported bees (perhaps forever) but the glens where that company operates will now be full of carnica drones just as the others will be. There is nowhere to go, and I fear that the hobby beekeepers in the area will be facing angry hybrid colonies for years to come.

[Trog]

Does hybrid always equal angry? Some of ours are pretty mongrel and perfectly amicable if treated properly. In autumn, after taking off any honey, we may be followed all of five yards by two or three bees but they very quickly go home when we reach the shrubbery. On the other hand, they don't have access to rape, don't get transported to the heather, or anywhere else, for that matter, and have a huge variety of mixed forage all around them.

[Jimbo]

Hi Gavin,

Our situation in the West is not as bad as the East or Perthshire. We don't have commercial operations, only hobby beekeepers. We can also use the geography of the area. We are not by any means perfect as we do have hybrid colonies given to new beekeepers by our local association. We do have the chance to change the colonies back to native black with the co-operation of all the local beekeepers and by surveying our area over a number of years we have built up a picture of where to locate our breeding colonies and where hybrid queens need to be replaced. The long term aim is to breed enough black bees to change the colonies in our local area then protect this area, which is also helped by the geography. (similar to the Gaultee group). Eventually be able to offer black bees to other groups interested in preserving them. We are a number of years from these aims but we think with co-operation and help from other beekeepers we should be able to achieve them.

Jimbo

[Jimbo]

Hi Trog,

Hybrid does not always equal angry but if you look at beekeepers in Europe and even some beekeepers in Ireland with pure stocks you will notice they do not wear protective clothing, where we in the UK dress up like spacemen!

Jimbo

[Jon]

Does hybrid always equal angry?

It depends what kind of hybrid.

The AMM/Carnica cross has been noted to be particularly bad.
In Dadant - The Hive and the Honey Bee there is a chapter called 'Races of Bee' which is edited by F Ruttner.
There is a table showing crosses of different races and it notes that the AMM/Carnica cross is 'very aggressive'

I suspect that some of the people who think that AMM is an aggressive bee are actually describing AMM/Carnica hybrids as they are as black as AMM.
Carnica is one of the gentler races of bee and it is the bee used throughout Germany.

My bees are native type with some hybridization. I inspected 7 colonies earlier this afternoon in cool conditions using just nitrile gloves and a veil for protection and didn't get a sting.
Mine rarely follow at all although any colony can have an off day.

Gavin's situation is difficult as he is going to be swamped by Carnica drones. There is a guy a couple of miles from me who keeps Buckfast but I don't think he has too many colonies. I encourage mine to make a lot of drones by using shallows in the brood chamber so it is probably me doing the swamping locally. I still get the odd queen which produces some yellow banded offspring.

PS no queen cells yet but plenty of drones in some colonies.

[gavin]

Couple of years back I had a colony turn very nasty. It exploded into several boxes in spring and had gone from that nice warm brown colour to darker with greyish bands, not as much as carnica but half way there. I'm pretty sure that it was a hybrid.

It was exceedingly difficult to work and just threw bees at you when you opened the top. Very intimidating. Usually I do my beekeeping in a jacket and veil, but as my thighs were getting peppered I turned to adding waterproof trousers, sealing up the pockets with Duck tape. Didn't work, they still buried their way through into my pockets and stung me from there.

Its a sample of one, but it fits with what others say about such hybrids. Some years previously I also had a colony turn nasty on re-queening but that was before I could hazard a guess at the racial identity.

These colonies are a danger to the beekeeper, especially the relatively inexperienced ones, and also by-standers.

So, probably not always hybrid = angry, but often it is the case especially with first backcrosses.

[Jon]

Gavin:
last year I helped a friend with his bees on a regular basis and he had a colony like the one you describe.
He thought it was normal as he didn't know any better.
The bees came from an association apiary so heaven help any beginners who had been exposed to that.
The bees were black although I didn't notice grey banding typical of Carnica.
I like to work light, but one time after helping him with an inspection I counted dozens of stings embedded in my clothing.
I have to admit they scared the bejesus out of me and I stated to wear a tunic after that. They also went straight for the ankles.
Smoke had no effect on them and as soon as the crown board was removed they would all pour out the front and cling to the front of the hive.
When you lifted out a frame, they would hang off the bottom leaving the brood uncovered.
The very first time I helped him, after we had closed up I found the queen running around on the stand beside the hive and I had to put her in through the front door.
I have never seen anything like it before or since.
They swarmed last summer and the remaining colony died out in the winter. I often wonder who got that swarm.
They were definitely a danger to the public and I was hoping to requeen them for him but they swarmed first.

This colony was less than 3 miles from mine so I was worried about the influence the drones could have but none of my colonies have turned aggressive touch wood.

[gavin]

We ought to have an organised attempt to do morphometry on any angry colony we hear about.

[linchpin]

Hi Trog,

Hybrid does not always equal angry but if you look at beekeepers in Europe and even some beekeepers in Ireland with pure stocks you will notice they do not wear protective clothing, where we in the UK dress up like spacemen!

Jimbo

not all,dress like that.

[gavin]

not all,dress like that.

That reminds me, I know a man with Buckfast x native crosses now veering back more to native types and they seem as mild as anything. He even looks into his bees with nae veil at times!

[gavin]

Couple of years back I had a colony turn very nasty.

Talking to myself now.

Just wanted to reinforce the point that this possible Amm x carnica cross was darker, and in fact blackish, in comparison to the browner native types.

Using the term black bee or even the dark bee implies that the darker they are the better. In many cases these could be the worst ones to keep if you are trying to select native stocks. Folk using colour as a selection criterion could go very badly wrong.

[Stromnessbees]

Gavin, do you have any pictures to show the variations in colour?

Or could anybody else post such pictures here - including some of drones (I nearly hit the topic!) and queens - please?

Doris

[Stromnessbees]

That reminds me, I know a man with Buckfast x native crosses now veering back more to native types and they seem as mild as anything. He even looks into his bees with nae veil at times!

Yesterday I had the pleasure to work on some colonies that needed neither gloves nor veil (they were unfortunately not mine). They have been selected for docile nature, hardiness (it's Orkney, after all!) and production over a long time by somebody who knew what he was doing.

Morphometry for them is in progress, but I think they are mostly native.

No sign of them wanting to swarm either, so will try to graft from them when my bees are ready.

Doris

[EmsE]

This may be a silly question, but when trying to decide the strain of your bees is it the workers you look at? The reason for asking is that I have noticed different looking workers in one hive (not mine though) & I'd be interested in trying to establish the strain of my bees- any hints on where to start?

[gavin]

Hi Ems

Not a silly question, and all castes have their own characteristics. I'll talk mostly about workers.

Native bees (Apis mellifera mellifera) are rather stocky and vary in colour from a warm brown to black. They can have two orange spots on the first abdominal segment but are often free of orange colour.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=96&d=1268263175

Buckfast (as this is a bred strain it doesn't have a Latin name for the race) is a neat, more slender bee usually with a couple of orange bands and with greyish bands on the remaining dark segments of the abdomen:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=97&d=1268263187

Buckfast drones are nice grey-ginger colour.

Carniolans (Apis mellifera carnica) are shaped like Buckfast and workers are usually black with the grey bands of the Buckfast on each abdominal segment.

Italians (Apis mellifera ligustica) have several pale orange bands on the abdomen. Some call them 'yellow bees' contrasting with the native 'black or dark bee', and this was a useful distinction when Italians were the main imports and the dark Carniolans were nowhere to be seen (they have been imported in large numbers recently).

Another race which has been imported is Apis mellifera caucasica, a greyish bee.

They all have their own characteristics, but some that stand out for A. m. mellifera is a relatively small brood nest, white cappings over honey due to an air space, pollen stored all round the brood nest, long-lived workers and queens, and the ability to winter successfully on less stores than the continental aces require. And they belong here.

G.

[Stromnessbees]

Just wanted to reinforce the point that this possible Amm x carnica cross was darker, and in fact blackish, in comparison to the browner native types.

Using the term black bee or even the dark bee implies that the darker they are the better. In many cases these could be the worst ones to keep if you are trying to select native stocks. Folk using colour as a selection criterion could go very badly wrong.

I phoned Hans Trenkwalder in my native Tyrol yesterday to enquire about his breeding programme for the Tyrolean strain of Amm. Amazingly he still remembered me after meeting me once 20 years ago.

There, some enlightened beekeepers had searched for remaining populations of the 'Dunkle Biene' in the 1950s, which was at threat due to a lot of propaganda for the Carnica, which was brought in from the South-East of Austria.

They very quickly started to use morphometry to test the purity of the lineage. They also established three isolated mating areas in remote parts of the mountains and an evaluation apiary, where colonies can be rated according to production, docility, non-swarming and other traits.

Over time they developed a very good strain, and these bees were of a medium brown colour. To make them more distinct and therefore more saleable it was then decided to also concentrate on very dark colour, to distinguish them from the lighter coloured Carnicas. Since then their dark bee has become more and more poular, but due to some very stubborn Carnica breeders they still haven't been able to establish a protected region that's pure Amm.

So where are we at in 2010 in Scotland? - A few decades behind, obviously. But if we get organised we still have a chance to set up a breeding programme for our native bee. Where are the strongholds, how can we protect and expand them? How can we improve this bee and make it a useful and popular choice for our beekeepers?

Hans Trenkwalder offered to send me some of the Tyrolean dark queens, but I declined, of course. Much better to concentrate on what we have and make the most of it.

Doris