They do it differently down under

[gavin]

Just having a peek at a NZ beekeeping forum. They need to be registered to keep bees, and can be prosecuted for failing to look after them properly. Who fancies that sort of regime in Scotland or the UK?

www.nzbees.net/forum/threads/should-maf-prosecute-negligent-beekeepers.249/

G.

[Neils]

six of one, half a dozen of the other. first off I can't see it happening, it'd cost a fortune for very little over all benefit given how the majority of bees are kept in the UK. I get the impression that in NZ it is far more an industry, I've no idea how many commercial beeks there are in the UK, but there doesn't seem to be the same reliance on commercial beekeepers in the UK compared to elsewhere.

Enforcement would be a massive problem, getting some of the let alone lot to consider joining the national associations, let along register with the gubment starts off the howling, just look at any of the numerous threads on the subject on the Beekeeping forum. Granted some of their posters take pride in the amount of froth they can produce at any mention of regulation of beekeeping especially if they can posit that the BBKA will be the ones to do it but I think there'd be a sizeable number of people who'd resist it.

I think even trying to be rational about it you'd have to have some concerns at just how the government would categorise "Failing to look after them properly" and whether we could expect more official help around that area in exchange for the added burden of proof that this year's winter losses, for example, were just that and not as the result of something negligent on behalf of the beekeeper.

[gavin]

Can't see it happening either, but there does seem to be a view in our (I can say that for you and me Nellie) national beekeeping organisation that it would be a good thing. There doesn't seem to be an appetite for this in government so I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

Interesting to note that the NZ forum - which seems to be the only one for NZ - is about as quiet as we are even though they are in the main part of their beekeeping season there. We did have a recent subscriber from NZ but I haven't heard any more from him.

[chris]

so I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

Who's put a contract out on you ?:confused:

Here, down under (the English Channel) we have to register our apiaries with the number of hives to the departmental veterinary service. We are then issued a number that must be painted either on the hives or on a board at the apiary entrance. It is no hassle, there's no big brother issue. And as loads of people don't bother to register it is probably the same as not having the system:confused: Of course it is all about disease control and beekeeper education. Maybe it works where the populations are denser.
That bit about "can be prosecuted for failing to look after them properly" is pure rubbish.

[Neils]

Can't see it happening either, but there does seem to be a view in our (I can say that for you and me Nellie) national beekeeping organisation that it would be a good thing. There doesn't seem to be an appetite for this in government so I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

Interesting to note that the NZ forum - which seems to be the only one for NZ - is about as quiet as we are even though they are in the main part of their beekeeping season there. We did have a recent subscriber from NZ but I haven't heard any more from him.

Presumably though it's a good thing if someone else other than the SBA has to run and manage it? Given the current lot's love of private enterprise is it still a good idea if a company with little to no direct involvement with beekeeping or a controversial past lands the contract? (lockheed-Martin doing the census for example)

In principle I don't have too much issue with the idea but it's going to cost a lot of money to administer which presumably we will have to pay for as part of, or on top of, the existing membership fees.

As a nominally Scottish beekeeper is the local inspector obliged to come down to Bristol and have a look at my bees to make sure I'm looking after them properly?

[Trog]

And who will define 'properly', given that 3 beekeepers will give 4 different opinions? ;)

[gavin]

Maybe it works where the populations are denser.


That's a terrible thing to say about the NZers! Or did you mean your French colleagues ....

:p

Can't see anyone but government running such a scheme. As you can see from some of the discussion on here (and more so elsewhere) the national associations are not trusted by everybody.

I think that the AP1/AP2 system in NZ for foulbrood control is via collaboration with industry bodies (ie beekeeping associations) but I can't see ours doing so.

The UK and Scottish Governments' preferences are to do such things by voluntary agreements and I can't see them going further than voluntary registration through BeeBase for the foreseeable future.

G.

[Neils]

I think an important question to ask, especially those in favour of the scheme is what they believe it will achieve. I think something that sounds as ineffective as what Chris describes is fine, to some degree, if it's already there, doesn't cost a great deal and no-one's got any great expectations of it, but to start something now I think there has to be a real perceived benefit. I personally think that beebase is worth its weight in gold but you don't have to go too far to find people who regard it with suspicion.

[kevboab]

I dont think theres anything wrong with the system we have in place at the minute. Lets be honest, no one keeps bees without having the welfare of the bees at heart and the wealth of knowledge within local associations is phenomenal and good sound advice is only a phonecall away. With regard to serious disease outbreaks beebase and regional inspectors have significantly improved the way they deal with these unfortunate outbreaks over the past few years and I personally think we have systems in place which are very effective and informative to beekeepers concerned and those around such outbreaks. I really dont see any point in over complicating things as this only increases running costs of services involved which would ultimately be passed onto the beekeeper who already spends more than enough on the welfare of his/her bees.

[Jon]

Lets be honest, no one keeps bees without having the welfare of the bees at heart...

I would say there are a few dodgy characters out there, the let alone beekeepers may on occasion be inadvertent harbourers of disease, and some of the nuc sellers may be a tad less than rigorous re. disease inspection.

[The Drone Ranger]

Have a look at America
Bees are a poisonous insect and its illegal to keep them in many cities.
Inviting bureaucracy and legislation is stupid.
Some people would sell their freedom (and yours) just to have tea and hobnobs with some government lackey .
Merry Xmas

[Trog]

Well at least (as I understand things) the SBA is not pro-legislation/registration/bureacracy. A bit like the RYA when it comes to sailing - make the education side of things voluntary and encourage folk to do things better, rather than forcing folk to do things in a certain way or not be allowed to do them at all.

[Rosie]

I think our current system of voluntary registration with beebase is like democracy - the worst system except for all the others. In our area association we make it a condition of membership that everyone registers. Even so I know that there are beekeepers around that don't join anything and try to keep their bees secret from the inspectors. The inspectors know most of them though so few would get overlooked in the case of an outbreak. I have been asked a couple of times by inspectors if I knew any unregistered beekeepers in the area but whenever I suggested one it turned out that the inspector had already sussed them.

I think that registration (or otherwise) is not a great problem. Potential problems lie with the people who don't give a monkey's where they get their bees from or what condition they are in and are then happy to sell them on to any innocent and trusting beginner who is not yet aware of the dangers. Compulsory registration would not help - in fact it might drive them underground where they could do even more harm.

Rosie

[gavin]

Glad to see everyone posting. I'm not trying to push one way or another but beekeeping is an activity where everything you do (or don't do) affects your neighbouring beekeepers, and them you. The EFB outbreak made a big change in Scotland, and bringing several biggish (and some medium) commercial beekeepers in from the cold and into close contact with government was part of that. The amateurs in the area too.

The NZ experience has some parallels. A problem with foulbrood, a government that had to face the issue. If you dig about on this site:

http://afb.org.nz/

you may find this on the history in NZ:

Incidence of American Foulbrood Disease in New Zealand
The first reliable report on the incidence of AFB in New Zealand was in 1947,when 74% of hives were inspected by Government employees, and 1.7% were found to be infected with AFB. This was repeated in 1950 when 78% of the hives were inspected and 2.02% were found to be infected.
There were no reliable AFB disease statistics collected between 1950 and 1960. By 1961, however, the reported incidence of AFB had reduced to 0.23% of hives. The decline in disease levels during the 1950s may have been due to the move away from shook swarming (managing AFB), and the adoption of the practice of destroying diseased hives.
The percentage of beehives reported to be infected increased over the next 30 years, reaching a peak of 1.2% in 1990. During this time the New Zealand government ran and paid for the AFB disease control programme. In 1991 most of the government funding was removed and the NBA (National Beekeepers Association of NZ) instituted its own AFB control programme. The programme included the inspection of approximately 4% of the nation’s apiaries by government inspectors, voluntary inspections carried out by NBA branches (called “diseaseathons”), the counselling of beekeepers with AFB problems, a research programme elucidating the factors contributing to the spread of AFB and an extensive education programme.

Now, this organisation is involved. All apiaries must be not only registered, but must be inspected annually by an approved inspector.

http://www.asurequality.com/asurequality-services-to-the-apiculture-beekeeping-industry/new-zealand-apiary-register-for-american-foulbrood-strategy.cfm

Comments? New Zealand is regarded as having bee health standards as good as anywhere in the EU and get favourable treatment for exporting to the EU.

G.

[The Drone Ranger]

Well at least (as I understand things) the SBA is not pro-legislation/registration/bureacracy. A bit like the RYA when it comes to sailing - make the education side of things voluntary and encourage folk to do things better, rather than forcing folk to do things in a certain way or not be allowed to do them at all.

Hi Trog
The SBA in fact wanted a compulsory registration scheme for all beekeepers as I have said before.
A president of the SBA Ian Craig proposed this it was voted on and carried
That would be one short step from having to buy beekeeping licences.
Even the funds the Government said it was putting into beekeeping actually was hijacked by the pink welly brigade and is being spent on all pollinating insects
I don't care about that much because the funds were mainly secured by beekeepers scaremongering and predicting the end of the honey bee which was all rubbish anyway
You guys can vote for the fire if you like I'm OK here in the frying pan

[Trog]

When was that vote, Droney? Must have been a fair few years ago, as I don't remember it.

[The Drone Ranger]

When was that vote, Droney? Must have been a fair few years ago, as I don't remember it.

Not that long ago I would have to go back through the SBA mag to check probably 2007 give or take a couple of years.
Gavin could tell you for sure.
Because it didn't result in compulsory registration of beekeepers the SBA likes to sweep it under the carpet.

[Trog]

2007 is a distant country, Droney! Still, if you can find chapter and verse, that would be interesting.

[The Drone Ranger]

2007 is a distant country, Droney! Still, if you can find chapter and verse, that would be interesting.
Hi Trog

I'm quoting Gavin here

"The vote in favour of compulsory registration was a surprise and is now irrelevant. The Scottish Government didn't think that they should go down this line so we now have a Scottish add-on to BeeBase that is collecting up voluntary registrations.

One thing that the SBA does and the local associations don't (and I'm not entirely sure that this is right) is speak to government. Help guide policy on bee health problems. Education. That kind of thing."

I'm sure he would be able to give you chapter and verse and probably the minutes as well
Note who didn't want the compulsory registration and it wasn't the SBA
It's not really relevant to me now as I'm not an SBA member

[Adam]

I don't understand the attitude of trying to hide beehives from "The Authorities" there's no logic in that approach at all.

I have invited the bee inspector over a couple of times and like everyone else who has commented on them, most beekeepers welcome their advice. The first time I asked for a visit I was concerned about a couple of poorly performing hives. The second time a purchaser wanted an inspection; the reason was that he had EFB the year before after catching numerous swarms (from an EFB area no less) and roumour has it, had been shipping said 'nucs' all over the country with EFB without knowing and for collections, without knowing the address where they were to go to. After colony loss and many shook swarms later he is now VERY aware of the issue. The EFB was discovered after a rountine inspection I understand.


I was in NZ last year. Although they are hot on beehives, they are more lax about car insurance and young drivers. It's not uncommon for young men to legally hack around in a 2 litre (or greater) car with the consequences of wrapping it around a lamppost and killing themselves.

[The Drone Ranger]

I don't understand the attitude of trying to hide beehives from "The Authorities" there's no logic in that approach at all.


I agree with that view and that the bee inspectors should have legal access to all hives.
I keep very good records of my bees including treatments inspections going back many years and have been on bee diseases courses etc.

On the whole I believe in my fellow beekeepers and that they will do a good job with their bees.
That has been the way of things for donkeys years.

However
Like the cast of Dads Army there will always be the Frasers claiming were doomed
and the Captain Mainwairings who want to be in charge of everything.
The Pikes who need someone else to tell them what to do next
The Private Walkers (the spiv) who take the shortcuts
and Good old Godfrey who I hope I turn into eventually

The Enemy is nowhere to be seen
In fact the enemy is only in their imaginings for all intents and purposes
Lastly theres old Jonesy who cant wait to show them some cold steel.
He still believes in Lord Kitchener despite his experience

Is beekeeping a bit like being given a part in Dads Army
Probably

[gavin]

That has to be one of the better posts from 2011! And on the second-last day of your SBA membership too? :p

I'd thought of getting you a 2012 subscription for your Christmas but decided I'm not that generous after all. What about the ESBA? There is a fellow on 9th Jan showing videos to illustrate some of the surprising things bees do to communicate. It gives a small window into their minds which can be either intriguing or unsettling depending on whether you regularly crunch some between boxes or not. Thankfully the speaker doesn't say a lot in this one, so if you find his voice irritating it doesn't matter too much.

Names, I want names! Private Fraser is obvious, though there could be a touch of the Jones about him too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RIgs3eygo&feature=related

Which one am I?

Remember that non-members are very welcome here too ...

G.