Teaching beginners: Beehives.

[Neils]

I've agreed to help out on the Beginner's course again this year. Last year I did Honey from hive to jar, this year I'm covering the section on beehives.

I was intending to do a brief history of beehives before looking in some detail at today's hives (I've got an hour and a half to fill and strict instructions not to go off topic, especially into other areas being covered by the course). Despite my own preference for 14x12s it is my intention to use a National hive for most of the demonstrations whilst still going over the general differences and varieties available. I'll even try to say some nice things about Top Bar Hives.

I don't think that it's going to be anything revolutionary in terms of content but just wondering whether folks, thinking back to when they started out, have anything that makes them think "You know, I really wish someone had told me [stuff] when I was starting out".

[marion.orca]

Hi Nellie. I did an excellent beginners course with Kate which I thoroughly enjoyed and learnt a huge amount about the complex life of the honeybee. A lot of emphasis was given to Varroa, which at the moment here, in Lochaber, we are fortunate to be without. So when I discovered a little red beastie on one of my bees, shortly after getting them, my heart was racing and doom and gloom filled my mind, along with panic ! Luckily [ if you can call it that ] it turned out to be Braula, which as I now know, looks very very similar to Varroa - so yes - " I wish someone had told me that " certainly fits the bill.

[chris]

I'll even try to say some nice things about Top Bar Hives.


I don't think that it's going to be anything revolutionary in terms of content

Now that sounds like a contradiction.:)

To be serious though, I wish someone had pointed out to me the possibility and potential of *one size box* hives.

[Rosie]

Nellie,

Will you be covering spacer designs? If so it's worth covering the differences and advantages of them all because, just like choosing a hive, it's difficult to change your spacer system once you have invested in a load of kit.

The other thing I advise is to look at the bees that will be kept before anything else and then choose a hive that suits them.

Rosie

[chris]

Nellie,
The other thing I advise is to look at the bees that will be kept before anything else and then choose a hive that suits them.
Rosie

I couldn't agree more (the learner saying the master is right). That is why I didn't mention the word Warré as the type of OSB hive.

[Neils]

Just to give a bit more context, this is very much an introductory course for people interested in taking up beekeeping.

I had intended to try and cover all hives to some degree, even the ones I don't like! So despite my reservations over its suitability for urban beekeeping I was going to mention the Warre. I think when it comes to discussing various hives it's very hard to keep your own personal opinion out of it. I totally get why commercial guys tend to take the one size fits all approach and why the rose hive might seem attractive as a result but I personally think it's a compromise when aimed at the hobbyist. The boxes acting as supers have to be light enough for one person to lift and remove which, in my opinion makes them too small to be decent brood boxes, around here I think you'd end up with triple brood chambers using them.

As for spacing, I'm wary about going into too much detail, it needs to be mentioned but I recall my experience when we did hives and had a guy wax lyrical about umpteen different spacing options for half an hour to a room full of people only just introduced to the concept of bee space with a net result that everyone was utterly confused rather than engaged and a few people at lunch opined that maybe this beekeeping malarky was far too complicated for them. That is something I really want to avoid.

[gavin]

Will you be covering spacer designs? If so it's worth covering the differences and advantages of them all because, just like choosing a hive, it's difficult to change your spacer system once you have invested in a load of kit.


Just like to second that. Maybe at the end you need to commit to a recommended configuration. Perhaps Hoffman BS frames in the brood box, whatever super frame type you think is desireable in the supers ('Plastic metal ends' for flexibility in spacing and inexpensive purchase? Surely not the ghastly castellated runners supplied these days.). I've tended to try different types over the years and I wish that I hadn't.

Folk might like a comparison between wood and polystyrene (which seems to win out in terms of cost and winter colony health and survival) and again a recommendation for the better types (Swienty for example, and others).

Don't forget a mention of the Correx King of Ulster, and point your tutees to his guide to making the 50p nuc on this site. You just can't find these things in books, nor even on lesser beekeeping online fora. A copy of his Jim Nicolson MEP video wouldn't go amiss either.

G.

[Neils]

Fear not, I have no intention of recommending castellated spacers.

Personally I like Hoffman frames in the brood box as they're pretty much idiot proof but acknowledge that they're not without their shortcomings too. I think the trick will be to try and cover it in sufficient depth without bamboozling people with meaningless, at that point, stats and numbers.

[Jon]

In any hobby you get the Anoraks who prefer to talk about the equipment rather than the end result and I think that it is well worth avoiding that trap.
It is definitely possible to become too evangelical about polystyrene hives, frame types, routers, jigs, rigs and all the rest of it.
The top bar beekeepers are probably the worst offenders but good luck to those who squeeze bees into long containers.
There are guys who listen to music who spend all their time talking about the speakers they use.
And I haven't mentioned Mac users yet!!

[Neils]

Cough.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I wish someone had pointed out to me the possibility and potential of *one size box* hives.


... I think when it comes to discussing various hives it's very hard to keep your own personal opinion out of it. I totally get why commercial guys tend to take the one size fits all approach and why the rose hive might seem attractive as a result but I personally think it's a compromise when aimed at the hobbyist. ...

I do agree with Chris. I am in the process of changing to a one-box system and it felt like a kind of liberation - and I'm definitely not commercial, Nellie. I'm still on the beginner side of being a beekeeper (a Basic Beemaster beginner). Perhaps it's the size of the box that matters. I'm changing to polystyrene medium Langstroths and they're fairly easy to handle. I also hope to build a Warré this winter, and compare them.

[Neils]

Glad you found a system that works for you MC. I'm very much not trying to set out with an aim to say "This is how you should keep bees and the hive type you should keep them in". In my opinion, for my bees, a medium langstroth isn't big enough so I'd have to go double brood which is something I really don't enjoy which is my sole objection to using a single box size: To get a big enough brood box to not have to double brood would mean having honey supers that were very heavy for me to lift on my own. In some respects that's pretty much the crux of my conclusion. Whatever hive type and configuration you choose, it's a compromise between what's best for the bees and what's best for you as a beekeeper. What's best for me isn't necessarily best for you.

Now I've poked the nest a bit I've gone from wondering how to fill and hour and a half to wondering how I'm going to fit it all in :D

What I very much want to try and do is set out the options, look at the differences and considerations that arise when it comes to choosing a hive type. My lazy opinion is "go National", but that's not very interesting or entertaining :-D If I was starting again, and hadn't inherited a big pile of national kit, my inclination would be to have used Langstroths rather than National/14x12 hives but all things considered, I get on pretty well with my 14x12s

[Mellifera Crofter]

I do agree with Chris. I am in the process of changing to a one-box system and it felt like a kind of liberation - ...

I'm changing my mind about a one-box system. Fine when the colony is small, but a bit of a time-consuming nightmare when large and potentially too many squashed bees. I suppose I made the situation worse by not using a queen excluder - but I now think that, either with or without a queen excluder, this is not a bee-friendly or beekeeper-friendly system.

I did not know anybody using Langstroth all-mediums, so I suppose this was the only way for me to find out about them - but I now have to decide between Nationals, or Langstroth all-mediums and sort out this problem.

Kitta

[gavin]

What is it you don't like about the Langstroth mediums? Thick walls on the polys and the difficulty keeping bees off them, or the difficulty in sensitively handling the heavy boxes? Murray McGregor runs over 2000 hives and I think that more than half are on Langstroth mediums, and without QXs at least for the latter part of the season. For the heather flow at least, but I can see that restricting the brood nest to one or two boxes during the swarming season would be sensible.

I thought that I liked the poly Nationals we bought for the association, but now I think that I don't. Wood is nice.

[Easy beesy]

I like the idea of one size but I'd need to know more first - so that'd be on my list, and I have nationals on bottom bee space but I think I'd prefer top bee space instead - again I don't know enough to make a decision. Wish someone had told me the pitfalls of the Beehaus before I bought one. I use it for resting drinks on at a BBQ instead!

[beeanne]

Biggest consideration as to what hive to buy? What your mates use. Not because they'll "tut" at you, but because its so much easier to give or scrounge a frame of brood from the same frame size as your own. I got my bees as a colony in a very knackered old Smith hive, and continued down the route of buying knackered old Smith hive parts. but have learned a bitter hatred of amending frames to fit nationals when said frame is full of bees, brood, and its piddling down.

[Mellifera Crofter]

What is it you don't like about the Langstroth mediums? Thick walls on the polys and the difficulty keeping bees off them, or the difficulty in sensitively handling the heavy boxes? Murray McGregor runs over 2000 hives and I think that more than half are on Langstroth mediums, and without QXs at least for the latter part of the season. For the heather flow at least, but I can see that restricting the brood nest to one or two boxes during the swarming season would be sensible.

I thought that I liked the poly Nationals we bought for the association, but now I think that I don't. Wood is nice.

Hi Gavin,

No, the thickness of the walls did not bother me greatly. They can be a problem - particularly the MB ones with that extra lip, so bees can't get swept aside easily as you manoeuvre a box into place - but it is more the amount of lifting and stacking of boxes that bothered me. I longed for the simplicity of going through just one box, or two at the most, looking for queen cells. Going through the hive took me a very long time, and that can't be good. The queen ignored the bottom box almost completely and created a brood nest that covered parts of about five boxes - a long narrow brood area.

Interesting that Murray McGregor uses a one-box system. I would love to know more about his way of working. Perhaps I won't immediately ditch my Langstroths.

You may like your poly hives when winter arrives. Do you prefer the robustness of wood?

Kitta

[Mellifera Crofter]

I... Wish someone had told me the pitfalls of the Beehaus before I bought one.

What are they, Easy Beesy (apart from the price)?

[gavin]

It would be great to get Murray on here to tell you himself, but as far as I can remember:

Langstroth polys, QX on early in the season for ease of management (QCs in one box or two), taken off in July to let the bees roam through the stack of boxes. The heather harvest is from the upper and the side combs, around the brood nest.

Wooden Smiths, Smith polys too, presumably similar.

In general you can persuade queens (and workers) to work out the way and fill the box by delaying the addition of more boxes until they have a couple of frames left.

Yes, I like the robustness, look and feel of wood. Also the top space design of the Swienty feeders and roofs against the bottom space Nationals and the broad edges on which you can squash bees, these all cause problems. Perhaps if I buy enough crown boards and frames queen excluders I could solve that!

Gavin

[The Drone Ranger]

It would be great to get Murray on here to tell you himself
Gavin

He would have to say that they are easy enough to lift
When you employ teams of Polish lads and lasses to lift them for you :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Anybody used a Glenn Hive ?

[gavin]

I have the inner box of one but have never used it for the purpose it was made. I'll bet that Murray could lift one of these, full and single-handed. He's a big fellow.

[Trog]

We've just had the highly unusual situation in which it took the two of us to lift each of 3 supers off the biggest hive ... at the end of May!!!!!!! Even the overwintered nucs have had to be supered up. Going to have to do a spring extraction for the first time in 20 years, just to have enough supers to go round.

[Jon]

Hi Trog. I extracted 4 supers of very dark honey yesterday. Not sure what it is but I suspect hawthorn or sycamore. Does anyone know if either or both of these produce a dark brown honey. I have quite a few more supers to extract and all of these were filled in the past 2 weeks.

[Trog]

Dunno, Jon. Last time we had really dark honey it was a Hampshire autumn harvest and was largely bramble, I believe. One colony seems to be working blackcurrant; the others may be on hawthorn as well as the last of the sycamores to flower. Bluebells probably coming to an end - haven't had time to go down into the wood. Clover just coming in ... not much blossom on the apple trees; I think that cold snap in April may have something to do with that (or the wretched deer taking off all the buds).

[Jon]

The bramble and clover are just starting here as well. I never see much of a June gap unless the weather happens to be very poor in June. I often see a dearth in August due to poor weather. If the sun is shining the bees find something to forage on.

[prakel]

Murray McGregor runs over 2000 hives and I think that more than half are on Langstroth mediums

Hi Gavin, I seem to remember Murray McGregor writing on the beekeeping forum that there was no doubt in his mind (through his own personal observation) that bees seem to prefer the deeper frames -standard langstroth- and do better on them. If that's the case, and if I'm not attributing words to him wrongly, I wonder why he's running more than half of his colonies on mediums? I'm assuming that his labour pool is sufficient to deal with deeps.

I agree that it would be really good to get his direct input to this forum, there's no doubt that his posts elsewhere on and about beekeeping stand out head and shoulders above the bickering and snide remarks of some self proclaimed experts that inhabit the same board.

[gavin]

Standard Langstroths is what I mean - are they regarded as mediums?

Yup, Murray is very knowledgeable and it would be great to see him posting here. I know that he does read it sometimes. However he's a very busy man with his new Bee Farmers Association responsibilities and a huge beekeeping operation to run, now probably at the busiest time of the year.

[prakel]

Ah, my mistake; I was thinking medium langstroth = dadant depth shallow hence my confusion.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Ah, my mistake; I was thinking medium langstroth = dadant depth shallow hence my confusion.

No, not your mistake. I moaned about my one-box system, and it wasn't immediately clear that I meant Langstroth mediums (or Dadant shallows). Using the standard boxes will mean less lifting and moving of boxes, but perhaps a bit heavy. I'd still like to hear how he works.

[gavin]

Just another couple of comments on the polys, having been through the bees in them again yesterday. Difficult to scrape off the propolis and brace comb without damaging the polystyrene, especially on the Paynes boxes. I have used a flat-type (stainless steel) hive tool all my beekeeping time. They really aren't suitable for working poly - you need to lever from frame to frame to lift one and not frame to any part of the box. Doubt if I'll ever get used to that. Third thing - no ridge to sit the frame lugs on, so it takes time and effort to avoid crushing bees underneath the frame lugs.

OK, bees may winter well and, after a delay in early spring, generally catch up and overtake colonies in wood. However some of those beekeepers with both types of boxes (Andrew said this on Saturday) welcome the spread in the swarming season and the spread in timing of the peak of colonies that you get when working different hive types. One type may catch a certain flow one year, the other type the next.

[Neils]

My Paynes hives came with metal runners but I agree with you about the longevity and relative fragility of them. I really dont like the sheet when using bottom bee space as its very difficult to place without trapping bees on the top bars. I have persevered with a standard crown board but the roof really needs a good brick to keep it in place, I'm wary if using the straps for fear of breaking the roof with a CB on.

I think I'll be sticking with wood in future regardless of how the bees fare in comparison simply because I'm far from convinced that the poly boxes will still be issuable in a few years time.

[The Drone Ranger]

A big box with lots of frames might not be as easy a solution for big colonies as it seems
I dug out one of my old beekeeping books ( I collected a few over the years)
That was for another thread but interestingly there was a section on operating a Glenn Hive which was by all accounts 15 large frames.
The brood nest most people agree is Rugby ball shape
And as the broodnest shrinks at the end of the season some frames will be filled with honey on either side of the winter broodnest

The difficulty arises at the start of the new season where stores are consumed and the Queen is laying.
There could well be plenty empty combs on either side of the brood nest but if the queen is separated from them by a frame full of stores she wont go there and split the nest.
So people operating these huge hives with all the laying space in the world still had to constantly monitor and move food combs around shuffling combs and spreading the broodnest otherwise swarming caused by lack of space would occur.

I think its easier just to put a second brood box over the first.
Although Nellie tells me that's all wrong and it should go under LOL!

[Neils]

Don't ultimately think it matters in a framed hive and said as much. Nadir or supering seems to work fine.

Maybe I'll try it one day but if I gave a colony two brood boxes of foundation I'd expect them to start in the top box first.

If they filled the lower first fine by me, it's their home.

[The Drone Ranger]

Don't ultimately think it matters in a framed hive and said as much. Nadir or supering seems to work fine.

Maybe I'll try it one day but if I gave a colony two brood boxes of foundation I'd expect them to start in the top box first.

If they filled the lower first fine by me, it's their home.

I've never seen or used a Warre hive don't the bees just brace comb and propolise the frames together between boxes ?

[Neils]

Never used one and no intention of doing so either ;) I've certainly heard mention of having to use cheese wire between boxes of top bar warres.

One pretty important factor that somehow slipped my mind in favour of just slapping a box on top of the existing one is you don't have to move or lift the existing brood box.

[Bumble]

Third thing - no ridge to sit the frame lugs on, so it takes time and effort to avoid crushing bees underneath the frame lugs.
My Swienty polys have an L-shaped plastic frame rest that slots into a horizontal groove. Looking at the Paynes site, pictures of their Nats look as if they have something similar, except it looks as if slots in almost vertically. http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/polystyrene-national-hive/

[gavin]

Oh yes, so they have. Must've modified them since I bought ours just over a year ago. Murray's Swienty National Polys don't have any grooves nor the plastic frame rest as you can see here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?143-How-to-assemble-your-brand-new-Denrosa-Swienty-Poly-Hives

[The Drone Ranger]

Never used one and no intention of doing so either ;) I've certainly heard mention of having to use cheese wire between boxes of top bar warres.

One pretty important factor that somehow slipped my mind in favour of just slapping a box on top of the existing one is you don't have to move or lift the existing brood box.

Maybe if there is brood all the way to the top bar of the existing frames the best place to extend would be up
Allowing the Rugby ball shape
On the other hand if there is an arc of pollen and stores at the top of the existing brood frames perhaps a second broodbox might be better on the bottom

Strangely I've never really given it much thought till you mentioned putting a second box under the first

I use Smiths and by putting a second box on top the little B's often bridge the gap between boxes with drone brood.
Smiths being top beespace wonder if it might be avoided by going under

[Jon]

If the weather is cold such as in early Spring, a colony which has built up quickly would probably be better getting a second brood box underneath to avoid leaving a big empty space to heat above the brood nest. If it is warmer, I doubt if it matters whether it goes above or below.