I was revisiting the BBKA Course in a Case....

[Neils]

For the beginner's course and was perusing the presentation for Swarming when I noticed this:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7023/6474228801_17396b2d3b_b.jpg


I was going to include the notes for the slide, but they don't correspond with the actions being outlined on the slide itself so it seems a bit pointless. That error aside, do we agree that is good advice to be giving to new beekeepers?

[gavin]

Errr ..... that's pretty poor. Almost a guarantee of losing a swarm, and even if the underlying message was correct the PPT is far from clear.

We just dip into Course in a Case for material to help our locally designed beginners' course. I hadn't noticed this 'two queen cell' slide. Used to do that myself, but I've learned my lesson. It only makes sense if you later go in and knock off the poorer of the two. Or perhaps if you follow it up by moving the box with the queen cells to the other side of the old site after a week to bleed off more flying bees and make the remaining bees decide to stay put - but who has space each side of their hives for that?

In my view artificial swarms are best demonstrated using boxes on a table. Apideas are nice and light to carry, full brood boxes are better.

[Jon]

That advice to leave two cells is just plain daft.
Leave one cell and if for some reason it fails to hatch or the queen gets lost, you then recombine the two parts or introduce another queen or queen cell to the queenless part.

[Neils]

Does start to make me wonder whether the source of that advice making such a comeback this year is the BBKA itself. I know it made it into the BBKA news during the summer as well as most of the forums over the course of the year.

I think it also gives a bit more credence to the view that a lot of advice once it appears in "print" somewhere just gets repeated parrot fashion by the next author(s) putting something together on these basis that If it was said there, it must be true. Hence it's not so much that the bees "don't read the books" rather that a lot of books simply contain a lot of bad advice when it comes to bees.

[Rosie]

I think the whole Pagden system is flawed in any case regardless of whether you keep 1 queen cell or 2. I teach a beginners course and include the pagden system just so that the students know what to write in an exam. I then explain methods that actually prevent swarming:)

Rosie

[Neils]

I don't know, if you've got the space to do it then I think it's pretty simple and works well enough. Once you've got two or more hives on the go then it starts to get unwieldy.

[Rosie]

I find it works better if you've got plenty of drawn comb to put with the queen but even then it fails too often for my liking. The worst part about it is that the books make it sound foolproof and even advise that once done there is no further need to inspect for queen cells. Beginners that attempt it lose swarms and it can affect their confidence.

Rosie

[Rosie]

I just looked again at the slide and noticed that it does say "Stage 1 - Day 1". Perhaps a later stage describes removing a queen cell after they have been sealed and before the first virgin emerges.

Rosie

[Neils]

It doesn't. In fact the later slide specifically says first Q to emerge will kill the other(s).

[Jon]

It doesn't. In fact the later slide specifically says first Q to emerge will kill the other(s).

That can happen if the two cells hatch simultaneously, but if there are a reasonable amount of bees in the colony the first one to hatch invariably leaves with a swarm. This happens even in a nuc left with two cells.
I wonder who was involved in that advice. It wasn't Roger Patterson as he always sensibly says that leaving two cells is daft.

That the first queen out kills the other or tears down the cell is one of the more prevalent myths in beekeeping. I have had several fairly inexperienced beekeepers argue this point with me due to reading it somewhere or other. Needless to say they lose swarms left right and centre.

If you have more than a couple of colonies, keeping a spare nuc or two is a good idea as you can remove all the queen cells and combine with the nuc to make a queenright colony.

Personally, I do not like the idea of letting a large colony requeen itself especially if it is in a suburban garden.
If the queen gets lost on a mating flight you can be left with something very difficult to deal with, and the other risk is a drastic change in temper with the new queen depending on what she mates with. These problems crop up all the time in my BKA.

If you do that business of moving the colony with the queen cells to either side of the queenright colony every couple of days to constantly bleed off all the flyers you might get away with leaving two cells but it is a lot of faffing around.

[Rosie]

" It doesn't. In fact the later slide specifically says first Q to emerge will kill the other(s)."

Oh Dear. I that case you could get both halves swarming! The worst of all worlds. Just what a beginner wants after having just introduced bees to his urban garden.

Rosie

[chris]

I don't know if this still exists, but it used to be on the BBKA website.

© BBKA 2006 (3rd edition),
Swarm control for the beginner

11. Select a queen cell which is well placed on the face of the comb, is a good
size and has dimples on the surface. Mark the position of the cell by placing a
drawing pin in the top bar, vertically above the cell.
12. Carefully brush all the bees off this comb into the brood box, and destroy other
queen cells on the frame. Treat this frame gently. Do not jar or shake it or you
may damage your chosen future queen.
13. Shake or brush the bees off all the other brood combs into the brood box and
break down all the queen cells. Check in the corners and break down all
possible queen cells. Better safe than sorry.
14. Re-assemble the hive with the excluder and supers.

[Jon]

And the other thing to remember, whether you leave one or two open cells, is that you have to check 5 days later as they will probably have made more emergency cells from suitable aged larvae and these need to be removed. Most people don't seem to do this and half the books fail to point it out. If you leave one open cell and don't check 5 days later, this one can hatch and swarm leaving you with a scrub queen made from an emergency cell. Bees are rarely happy with just one queen cell and invariably try and make more.

[chris]

That the first queen out kills the other or tears down the cell is one of the more prevalent myths in beekeeping. I have had several fairly inexperienced beekeepers argue this point with me due to reading it somewhere or other. Needless to say they lose swarms left right and centre.

Even if they were right,a little experience and they'd know not to argue with you;)

I found out about the point you're making when, after some bad weather which delayed the old queen leaving, the bees didn't tear down any Q cells as they can do. Afterwards the old queen left, so did the virgin. And there was another virgin left in the hive.

[Jon]

Nothing wrong with either the 5 minute or the ten minute argument. Did someone mention morphometry?

When I started out I made the basic mistake and I had 6 cast swarms on successive days. (hangs head in shame)

I think I collected most of them but the last one was about the size of a grapefruit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

[Neils]

Right then, here's the other two slides specifically dealing with artificial swarming.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7021/6488187157_fbb915a1c2_b.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7150/6488187315_f034692f0b_b.jpg

The accompanying notes from the slides (same for all three) doesn't seem to match the method on the slides, but I'll include it for completeness:




On the original stand put an empty brood box, we will call B, and floor. Transfer the following frames from brood box A to brood box B: 2 frames of unsealed brood and eggs, outside of these 2 frames of sealed and emerging brood placed outside the first frames and outside these 2 good frames of stored honey/pollen. This is where the importance of the early spring preparation shows. Close up the frames in A and B and fill the boxes with drawn comb or foundation. (I also use 2,3 & 4 frame dummies) It is important to fill up the gap or wild comb will be built. Release the queen in box A. This is not the same as the Artificial Swarm Pagden Method, rather the opposite because no queen cells are built yet so we have to have a strong queenless stock on the original stand with the flying bees for good queen cells to be started.

[Adam]

Its one queen cell for me too.
Explaining the A/S in diagrams makes it appear much harder than it actually is. Once you've got it in your head it's not a problem. The best thing for a beginner is to practice it with spare kit when no-one is looking.


I have to admit that I prefer the argument sketch to the one on using a ratchet strap.

[Neils]

The only time I've left more than one queen cell was to try out a suggestion to manually release the queens the day before they were due to emerge. That works, but carries obvious risks if you can't open the hive up to release the queen(s) for any reason that you'll then end up losing a swarm anyway.

[susbees]

Pretty much sure that the Basic Exam/Module 1/2 "bible"(Hooper) states keep ALL open QCs in the shifted (brood) part of an AS. So this could be seen as an improvement!

[Neils]

Really?

I know our local bee whisperer isn't a great fan of Hooper. But, unlike most other books, he's never had a good old rant about it giving out rotten advice. He disagrees with the options given about drone laying workers and the overall writing style of the book but that's about it. Typically I can't find my copy to double check what's written.

[EmsE]

If you leave 2 Queen cells in the queenless colony, does the first Queen to hatch leave with a cast straight away or does she need to mature further before doing so?
If she does need to mature further could a factor in whether you lose a cast, or the new Queen kills the remaining Queen cells be the different stages of development the remaining QC(s) is(are) at?

This year I thought I had removed all but 1 Queen cell as part of an AS (the queen was definitely in the other section), however on the following inspection (I must have timed it well) there was a cast in tree. When I went through the hive, I found a Queen cell 'not' where I expected, and in the one I had intended to leave, the Queen hatched not long after.

[Neils]

******** Musing post to follow ********* :D

My understanding is that it isn't down to the Queen(s) whether they get to knock off their siblings. The instinct might be to go kill the other queens, but it's down to the colony itself as to whether they'll allow her to do that.

Regarding maturity, I'd assume from what I've seen of newly hatched queens that they'd need some time to properly fill their wings, I.e. they couldn't just hatch, walk out the door and then take to the wing.

I had it drummed into me that there is a holy trinity required for a swarm:

1) Queen
2) Brood
3) Flying bees.

Break that and bees won't swarm hence most AS methods trying to leave you with a box with a Queen and flying bees and a box with Brood and a queen cell in it.

Problem is that bees are fairly precise and we aren't; so cash in the attic comes on and we forget to go and play with the bees. So the box that had no flying bees in it a week ago when the queen cells weren't hatching now has flying bees and two queens due to emerge any time now. With no flying bees the first queen should be allowed to kill off her unhatched sibling, but if there are flying bees the colony will almost certainly stop her and make her swarm instead.

[susbees]

Hooper on AS "The old brood chamber which is now a couple of feet from its original hive, with its entrance facing the same way, is examined and all sealed queen cells are removed, providing there are some unsealed queen cells in which the larvae are almost fully fed and ready for capping. A crown board and roof are put on the hive and it is left for a week. At the end of a week this brood chamber is moved to the other side of the original site on which now stands the artificial swarm. The
result will be that all the workers that have learnt to fly during the week, and there will be quite a number of them, will return to their last site and from there to the original site, thus further augmenting the population of the artificial swarm.
It is in order to be able to do this move of the old brood chamber without the fear of a young queen flying from it that sealed cells are killed when the colony is first split up. Queen cells are sealed for eight days, and therefore with no sealed cells there can be no virgin queen to lose her bearings when the switch is made at the end of seven days. The old brood chamber can be left alone after this until the new young queen has emerged, mated, and started to lay. Usually there is no need to go through it to remove all but one of the queen cells because the drastic reduction of population will cause the bees to give up any idea of swarming and will destroy all but one themselves." My emphasis. Good, eh?

Part of the issue being that the queen-pin of the BBKA exam system is so besotted with this book; it's hard to know what to write when faced with things like this...

[Rosie]

I think that Hooper's advice works sometimes. Conflicting advice does too!

Hooper's book has the same error as every beginner's book that I have read so far - they make their systems sound foolproof so that all a beginner needs to do is follow the instrucitons to the letter and all will be well. When it all goes pear-shaped the beginners will naturally blame themselves and lose confidence. That then hold sthem back for about 3 or 4 years before they realise that it's ok to experiment and every situation needs a different answer. Hooper also has a downer on native bees so that alone is enough to put me off him. I still recommend his book because it's better than most.

When I write mine it will be perfect of course :)

Rosie

[gavin]

When I write mine it will be perfect of course :)

Rosie

I should send you the address for the SBAi review copy ....

[susbees]

I should send you the address for the SBAi review copy ....

And you can drop one down the road to me too. I'll send a pigeon ;)

[gavin]

Must be mighty strong pigeons you breed in Wales. :D

[susbees]

Must be mighty strong pigeons you breed in Wales. :D

nope, we're almost neighbours....well in Welsh terms!

[Rosie]

And if I put all I know into one book the pigeon will still have capacity on his other leg for more!

Rosie

[gavin]

I'm only going to accept that answer if you put your book onto one of them new-fangled USB stick things ...

[Neils]

Bionic Gavin? No need to read books, just put them on a USB stick and insert them...... Ahem.

[Rosie]

That's probably the best place for my book!

Rosie

[Jimbo]

Rosie,

When are you doing the Kindle version so I can download it? USB sticks are so old hat

[Johneboulougne]

I have been keeping bees for 2 years and have just registered for the forum having found this link. I would really like to know what methods you prefer. At our local club we are taught the Pagden method but with the addition of a queen excluder between floor and brood box on box B. This is removed after 3 days.

[gavin]

Welcome, Johneboulougne

There is such a diversity of methods and variants, and many of us would use different ones at different times and in different circumstances. I still use the basic artificial swarm most years, but will do other things too. Three-in-a-box Demarees using the Wedmore split board, and once I have Apideas mastered properly maybe queen rearing will become more controlled and the need for artificial swarming reduced.

The simplest artificial swarm is what we teach our raw beginners. Then they can diversify later once they have some experience. I tend to avoid names like Pagden, Demaree, Snelgrove, Cloak, because presumably at one time these methods were precise variants of other methods. For example, I'm unclear as to exactly what a Padgen is and find the name associated with several variants. I know very well that a classic artificial swarm means splitting a hive and having the queen and fliers in one box, the house bees and the queen cells in another.

The method you teach your locals sounds like the Hooper one which appears to be designed for a weekly inspection regime. The simplest artificial split we promote - easiest for beginners to grasp and perform - is to split the colony when Q cells appear. Keep one good Q cell (usually unsealed) in the old box which is moved aside. Leave one frame with the old queen and no Q cells in a box on the old site and ideally leave empty comb too to avoid congestion. Later (a few days to a week) check that there are no new Q cells in either box. That's pretty much it. No need for a QX under boxes, no need to move boxes again. The only complication I add to that is the desirability of making up a nuc with another Q cell as insurance if the first one fails. Keeping the bees in for a few days with grass helps them stay at home and shaking in a couple of frames of young bees helps too.

[Neils]

We actually teach the same method as on the slides in this thread (and as per Gavin above) but only leaving ONE queen cell. We also teach a simplified version of Snelgrove's system.

I think the only variation on Gavin's method is we tend to suggest a second swap of the Brood section of the AS to the other side of the Queen Section of the AS at that first inspection a week after.

I think this version does have simplicity as it's main advantage as long as you have the space to be switching brood boxes around it's also very easy to explain and put into context exactly what it is you're trying to achieve at each step of the operation.

I'm going to be trying our snelgrove variation (basically less messing around opening and closing doors) this year as I need to AS upwards rather than across because of limited space.


And welcome to the forum.