Ashforth tray feeders

[Neonach]

Expensive, but something reassuring about something designed to be part of the hive system itself, rather than yet another bit of kit or stuff to put inside where there is no real space for it.

Advantages: Huge storage capacity; Rapid feeding ability; Does not leave space around it (as with say contact feeder in empty super or deepe eke) liable to be filled with comb; no cold space between base and tops of frames beneath it; can be turned upside down and used as a shallow eke for feeding Nektapol, candy etc.

Disadvantages: Kamikaze bees diving into the open tray before you can cover it or when refilling (I put a travel screen on and fill through that); Difficulties in carrying it - have to fill it in-situ; Difficulties if you need to remove it before fully emptied by bees; Drowned bees (in theory they shouldn't, but they do nonetheless) in feeding slot block access for others to feed; Must be orientated with slot running across frame-ends for fastest feeding; Bees gain access at very edge of hive, where it is coldest; And the biggest disadvantage of the lot: block to ventilation air flow - glass/plastic observation strip is usually heavily beaded with condensation.

The last of those disadvantages does worry me a bit. So far the only solution I have to this is to use matchsticks between the box below and the feeder. With WBC not a problem, but with National etc even a deep roof won't cover this gap, and the bees actually have to cross this gap to get to the honey. This is a problem here because it is cold wet windy weather when they need feeding!

On the whole, I like using Ashforth feeders, but at £45-£50 each I would prefer not to have concerns about ventilation/condensation!

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

[Dan]

The Ashforth feeder is an improvement on the Miller. Having the access at one side (Ashforth) means that you put this on the downhill of any slope, hence last dregs of feed are always by the float, not a puddle at the far corner where bees will drown themselves. Miller style makes this harder to arrange with the central access.

Condensation? Yes, I see what you mean, however this is contained at the edge of the hive with Ashforth, central with Miller. One could argue that it's a useful water reserve and that excess will run/drip away down the very edge of the hive (Ashforth) rather than centrally (Miller).

Biggest problem with the Ashforth/Miller is that the bees need to be warm enough to get out, round, up, over, and back. Not good for late, emergency, or early feeds, where feed presented directly over the cluster is far more effective. Hence it could be argued that such a feeder would be removed as part of winter preparations.

The plus with either Miller or Ashforth feeders is that you can feed in large quantities without disturbing the bees. Whether you agree or disagree that feeding is a good thing, this appears to be the main design aim.

We do our winter feeds - where necessary - using hanging frame feeders in the upper brood box. I learnt the hard way that leaving these in the bottom box, or indeed in a single brood box, over winter led to large masses of drowned bees. Seems to be that any fermenting fluid attracts them, even if it's their sisters rotting in dregs. With the HFF empty, dry, and tucked at the outside of an upper brood box, this is not a problem and they can be safely left in as a contingency against poor spring weather.

[Neonach]

Having the access at one side (Ashforth) means that you put this on the downhill of any slope ...

That's a good point, Dan - thanks A hive should be set to slope slightly to the front (so rainwater drains out the entrance), and if the Ashforth slot is likewise across the front, then if maximum access is to be provided, that means the frames below need to be placed the so-called cold way, otherwise access is substantially by the top bar of the end frame.

A good point too about the condensation being a source of moisture. However my main concern was that this was an indicator of poor ventilation, and if you consider that with liquid feed in the tray and the glass strip in place, there is no gap left for ventilation from below up to above the feeder and the roof: the ventilation path is completely blocked by the Ashforth tray feeder: hence my suggestion about using matchsticks, but that the gap formed is completely exposed to the weather, right where the bees have to go to get to the syrup.

I'm wondering how essential the glass/perspex strip actually is. Perhaps next spring I'll try leaving the strip off, and fixing an additional bar of wood to the travel screen that I put over an Ashforth, such that the additional bar fits closely over the slotted panel that separates the bees from the main tray. This would then mean the ventilation path would be opened up, but bees could not get into the main tray. I almost wonder whether such a modified screen could be offered as an optional accessory to Ashforth feeders.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I'm wondering how essential the glass/perspex strip actually is. Perhaps next spring I'll try leaving the strip off, and fixing an additional bar of wood to the travel screen that I put over an Ashforth, such that the additional bar fits closely over the slotted panel that separates the bees from the main tray. This would then mean the ventilation path would be opened up, but bees could not get into the main tray. I almost wonder whether such a modified screen could be offered as an optional accessory to Ashforth feeders.

... and create a draft through the hive?

I thought, from the matchstick thread, that you understood that top ventilation (at least with hives with open mesh floors) should be above the insulation or solid crown board.
Kitta

[Neonach]

In the past three years I've built/rebuilt two houses in which I've had to grapple with the problem of ventilation (to satisfy building regs, but in essence to address the need for both provision of fresh air and also removal of excess moisture (both houses are 'sealed', one with mechanical ventilation, the other with a natural 'stack'.

It's the natural ventilation 'stack' that interests me most - not only because it uses no electricity, is quieter, and is more sustainable - but there is a parallel with beehives!

Essentially a ventilation stack works like a chimney for a fireplace, but is smaller and more controllable.

A flow of air across the top of the stack (as with a chimney pot) creates a 'pull' up through the stack itself: the stronger the wind, the greater the pull or 'draw'. However the actual flow up through the stack is controlled by small adjustable valves in each room, so no matter how windy, and how strong the pull, there is no reason to have more of a through draft than necessary.

The parallel with a beehive (other than WBC) works like this (at least in my mind!): The ventilation through the roof, across the top of the crown board (and over any insulation), creates a pull up through the hive. The air will be drawn up from the hive entrance and between the frames but if there are any gaps further up, the inflow will bypass the rather congested brood chamber and get pulled in through any higher gaps - eg where there are matchsticks inserted. So the best way to increase the ventilation potential is to improve the flow of air through the roof (hence my belief we need more ventilators in hive roofs); and the best way to control the flow up through the hive is with entrance blocks, crown/clearing boards, and layers of carpet or other insulation.

Can you tell I'm an engineer? ;~)

Back to Ashforths: The Ashforth feeder (unless syrup not covering slots in divider) completely blocks the upward flow of air, trapping in moisture. Matchsticks under the feeder will create a draft across the top of the frames, which will certainly remove damp air in the brood chamber, BUT potentially produce a deadly chill for bees especially if trying to access the feeder. This is my decisive problem with the Ashforth feeder, and is making me question if they are really such a good thing.

The suggestion I made earlier for removing the glass/perspex strip and instead using a slightly modified travel screen, reinstates the flow up through the hive, past the feeder; the amount of flow will be controlled by entrance block or crown board or insulation. I currently put a normal travel screen on the feeder any way, and so any carpet insulation lies directly on the screen mesh, controlling the amount of upward air flow.

I'm going to have a go at modifying a travel screen some time during the next few days - perhaps today! I'll be back with results and a photo.

PS: Don't use OMFs here, as no varroa.

[gavin]

However ...

1. With a heat-generating cluster, especially once brood raising has begun, convention will be a major feature. Warm air up the way, hits a cold surface and condenses (glass crown board for example) or hits a warmer surface and continues its journey to the walls then floor where it can condense on the walls or exit the hive through the entrance even with a solid floor.

2. Some warmth (from top insulation) inside the box helps clusters especially when they are small and especially when they are raising brood. It also shifts that risky excess of moisture to places where it will not do damage and may do good.

3. Some of that condensation may help prevent the need for risky flights to puddles in the vicinity in cold weather.

So you can certainly increase the ventilation by making bigger vents or using matches, but why? Will the bees benefit or suffer as a result?

Gavin

[Mellifera Crofter]

Back to Ashforths: The Ashforth feeder (unless syrup not covering slots in divider) completely blocks the upward flow of air, trapping in moisture. Matchsticks under the feeder will create a draft across the top of the frames, which will certainly remove damp air in the brood chamber, BUT potentially produce a deadly chill for bees especially if trying to access the feeder. This is my decisive problem with the Ashforth feeder, and is making me question if they are really such a good thing.

The suggestion I made earlier for removing the glass/perspex strip and instead using a slightly modified travel screen, reinstates the flow up through the hive, past the feeder [...]

I'm going to have a go at modifying a travel screen some time during the next few days - perhaps today! I'll be back with results and a photo.

Interesting. I almost understand, but not quite (I'm not an engineer, and ventilation troubles me). Your photos may help. How will the air flow bypass the feeder when using a travel screen? From the way I understand your description, it sounds to me as though the airflow will go through the Ashford feeder's bee entrance - and will that not deter the bees from using it?

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I currently put a normal travel screen on the feeder any way, and so any carpet insulation lies directly on the screen mesh, controlling the amount of upward air flow.

I've just realised that I probably did not read your post carefully enough. On top of the travel screen you're adding breathable insulation - will that insulation cover the gap above the Ashford feeder's bee entrance? If so, does that mean we're back to having a ventilation gap above the breathable insulation which means your travel screen will not cause drafts?
Kitta

[Neonach]

Kitta. There's definitely ventilation across the top of the carpet (breathable insulation as you put it generically) - between the small ventilators in the National roof. But though there's air flow (a bit anyway) through the travel screen and carpet, it can't get from the chambers below the Ashforth due to the glass panel. I have in this thread said that I was going to try a modifcation of the feeder so that I could remove the glass, but I've since realized there is a much much simpler solution. This is to replace the glass with a panel of mesh the same size as the glass. I've got some stainless steel gauze to do this, but I need to find something to make a little frame around it so it will sit neatly in the recess where the glass goes. I'm hoping to get some time to try out this new idea, and I'll take a photo and post it on this thread, but I do really think there's something to this. How on earth did we end up with glass panels in Ashforths anyway?

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks Neonach - I understand. I was concerned that you're creating a draft, but if the insulation fits snugly, then I suppose that is unlikely.