View Full Version : Matchsticks yes or no??
Reading the BBKA monthly yesterday two articles referred to putting matchsticks under the crown board in October so it's too late for the bees to propolise up the space (!). I can understand the practice when solid floors were used and there was less ventillation in the hive. However now we (well most of us) have open mesh floors I do not believe it is:-
a) necessary
b) desireable
and the matchstick method is a remnant of days before the OMF.
I think it odd that beekeepers think they know better than the bees and open up the hive against the bees own (best) practice. Afterall bees have been keeping bees for a lot longer than us.
Damp and condensation will be occur on cold spots so I guess the idea was to make the sides of the hive colder than the middle where the bees cluster (!) but of course any heat the bees try to create would escape up. However insulating the hive roof will mean that water vapour does not condense under the crown board and with an OMF there is plenty of ventillation available.
In my short years of beekeeping I have never used a solid floor (even the original WBC I had, posessed a mesh floor) so can't comment on them. However in the past two winters I have overwintered 16 and 9 hives with no loss and I undersuper and insulate above the crown board. Even some weak colonies survived with a laying queen and brood found at the first inspection. There has been no sign of damp or mould in any hive. This is evidence enough to me that my system works for my Southern Poof bees.
Does anyone still use matchsticks.
How do others overwinter?
fatshark
02-10-2011, 11:20 AM
OMF and two inch thick poly insulation over an acrylic crown board with the feed hole covered. A quick check in mid-winter takes ten seconds ... Oxalic acid takes a couple of minutes and adding fondant requires nothing more than opening the feed hole, popping the fondant on (in clear plastic box I buy carrots in) and adding back the poly - which conveniently has a removable block cut in it for the fondant box.
No condensation problems under the acrylic cover board whatsoever.
I should add that this is the process for cedar or ply hives. I've got a couple of MB poly nationals in use this year as well, which also won't get the matchstick treatment.
--
Fatshark
gavin
02-10-2011, 11:48 AM
These days, and with some mesh and some solid floors, always polystyrene sheets over the crownboard. Matches are only ever used to light a smoker (or fish out a suspicious larva!).
I used to winter with feed holes open and nothing else on top (but certainly no matchsticks). Winter losses and especially learning of the losses in wood and in polystyrene of bee farmers with many colonies to compare have shown that insulating the top is sensible.
Looking a couple of years ago at a glass crown board foolishly left on overwinter, I could see serious condensation and dripping on the cluster once it had started brood raising in earnest. So, some insulation helps them get to distant stores in the box and insulation above helps prevent drips. Condensation on the walls is fine and will give them a water source when the alternative is a risky trip out to a puddle.
So, crown board and single sheet of 25mm polystyrene on top. In colonies where I didn't feed well enough at the right time, queen excluder, empty super, bakery fondant cut through the plastic bag, opened out like a book and laid on the queen excluder, maybe three offcuts of polstyrene on top of the fondant inside the super, crown board, single sheet of polystyrene, roof. Not a match to be seen.
Who does the quality control for BBKA news?
Does anyone still use matchsticks.
Matches are only ever used to light a smoker (or fish out a suspicious larva!).
The only proper use is for making a scale model of the Eiffel Tower.
I am currently converting several of my stylish correx nucs to open mesh floor to reduce winter condensation
I have a sheet of 8 by 4 mesh and have started to cut it into rectangles with an angle grinder.
I follow the same routine as Adam, top insulation and no matchsticks.
I have about half a dozen colonies on solid floors but may shift them to OMF if I have time to cobble together some more floors from my sheet of mesh.
Bridget
02-10-2011, 07:20 PM
As we are in the highlands my husband wants to wrap the hive in bubble wrap ( he has a free source). Is he mad?
Bubble wrap will keep rain out but also keep moisture in. I suspect the hives will sweat when the sun's on them.
Gavin,
One of the contributors is unnamed - goes by the name of Pinguis Imperium. (Does that mean Imperial Penguin?) The other is Chris Deaves, Chair of Education and Husbandry - so one of the top bananas. He also suggests removing the porter bee escapes but I don't know if he means to leave them open or seal them up with something.
The quality control of the BBKA rag is a bit odd. A few months ago the instruction when doing an artificial swarm was to walk 10 metres with a frame of brood with the queen on and put it in the second hive!
I know what you mean about condensation on crown-boards. I had a sheet of perspex over a little nuc of mine last winter and I noticed it was dripping wet when I removed the roof, so a 2" slab of cellotex was placed on it. I assume that a plywood board would be better as it will absorb moisture rather than allowing it to drip. (A Warre hive has a box of absorbent stuff above the bees for the same purpose I believe).
Bridget,
I would agree with Trog on this; ventillation is required. If one side tended to get blasted by a wet prevailling wind, then there may be some sense in it. Wet wood willinsulate less than dry.
(If he married a beekeeper, then your husband must be mad; he can commiserate with my wife!).
Jon,
What mesh have you got? I can cut mine with scissors!
Don't know but it is heavy duty stuff which you would struggle to cut with pliers let alone scissors.
gavin
02-10-2011, 09:39 PM
Don't know but it is heavy duty stuff which you would struggle to cut with pliers let alone scissors.
I tried to cut a sheet I got years ago in a Thornes sale in late July to use as a travelling screen to go to the heather but gave up on it. Wire mesh with resin coating, impossible in the time I was giving to the job.
gavin
02-10-2011, 09:51 PM
I assume that a plywood board would be better as it will absorb moisture rather than allowing it to drip.
Maybe. I wonder if the old idea of a piece of carpet as insulation had merit. Bernard Mobus wrote persuasively on the late winter cluster's need for moisture, and I've heard of beekeepers putting in a frame feeder of water to help them out.
gavin
02-10-2011, 09:56 PM
As we are in the highlands my husband wants to wrap the hive in bubble wrap ( he has a free source). Is he mad?
Certainly not, treasure that man! He wants to help your bees, and that has to be a great trait.
Maybe stuff the roof space with it instead?
My reaction was the same as Adam's - and I use solid floors. Matchsticks to my mind are part of that well-meaning "fiddling" that accumulates at the fringes of beekeeping - very involved but with little real impact.
Granted I'm in a warm and dry environment, but with the coming of OMF's we seem to have assumed that any condensation within the hive is problematic and should be prevented at all costs. All things in moderation!
Gavin,
The other is ... Chair of Education and Husbandry - so one of the top bananas.
Just be careful in your assumptions; I know Chris and I mean him no ill but being chairman is a different game to being an expert. One of the problems that the BBKA and the English county associations have suffered from for many years is that committees attract committee types, who then try to make beekeeping decisions. I speak as one who tries to bridge the gulf between both camps - so see it from the inside and could be accused of being a committee type myself! I firmly suspect that golf, sailing, embroidery, and pretty much any hobby with a committee suffers the same disjoint.
Maybe. I wonder if the old idea of a piece of carpet as insulation had merit. Bernard Mobus wrote persuasively on the late winter cluster's need for moisture, and I've heard of beekeepers putting in a frame feeder of water to help them out.
Depending on what I have available, I will use a few layers of corrugated cardboard as insulation in some hives. Or scrunched up newspaper in a super above the crown board. Both would allow absorbtion of moisture.
Being chairman is a different game to being an expert.
Problem is if their opinions are put in print the opinions then become fact!
Neils
03-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Never bothered, they're on an open mesh floor and they seem to be pretty good at looking after themselves, but then I don't really insulate either.
There are some very odd decisions going on in the BBKA news letter at the moment. On top of ropey advice (Leave two queen cells in an AS is another one this year) I think if you're going to put an attack against "natural" beekeepers in the national association magazine, for example, the least you could do is have the courage of your convictions and write under your real name. Likewise this Pingu fella.
Yes I know I Don't post here under my real name, difference is, I don't represent anyone's opinion other than my own.
Neil
chris
03-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Depending on what I have available, I will use a few layers of corrugated cardboard as insulation in some hives. Or scrunched up newspaper in a super above the crown board. Both would allow absorbtion of moisture.
In the Warré the quilt is filled with moisture absorbing materials .The roof overlaps the quilt, and completely seals it with a wooden cover board that is parallel to the hive floor. Above this board, the roof is open on the four sides to allow a good air flow above the wooden board. This causes the moisture in the quilt to be gradually absorbed by the wooden *lid* and evacuated. Otherwise the water absorbing material would just become a soggy mess. Like the bits of carpet used before as insulation above the crown board in a normal hive. Or cardboard or newspaper. I wouldn’t use a water absorbing material for insulation unless it can dry out.
There are some very odd decisions going on in the BBKA news letter at the moment. On top of ropey advice (Leave two queen cells in an AS is another one this year) I think if you're going to put an attack against "natural" beekeepers in the national association magazine, for example, the least you could do is have the courage of your convictions and write under your real name. Likewise this Pingu fella.
Yes I know I Don't post here under my real name, difference is, I don't represent anyone's opinion other than my own.
Neil]
Agreed.
The 'general articles' don't do much for me - and as you wrote, there are some funny suggestions in there as well as typos (I'm pretty good at those mysefl !).
The article "Its been a funny old year" is worthless if you don't know which part of the country the author lives. This is from another anonymous author called "The Forager" I wonder if they just have to write something to fill up the pages.
The occasional technical article is OK.
Neils
03-10-2011, 10:45 PM
"The Forager" is the author of the article that laid into the Natural crowd.
The Drone Ranger
03-10-2011, 11:21 PM
The barefoot Beekeeper doesn't convince me
I don't mind what people believe but when they evangelise they can lead new beekeepers off in the wrong direction.
Sometimes even experienced people are sucked in
There are cults even in beekeeping it seems
The barefoot Beekeeper doesn't convince me
Nor me, but he's apparently making money out of his books and lectures/demonstrations. It's what people want to hear: heavy on emotion and righteousness, low on facts. Imagine the joys of having them just on your doorstep...!
Rosie
04-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Imagine the joys of having them just on your doorstep...!
I don't like his approach either but I can imagine a lot worse on my doorstep.
Rosie
The Drone Ranger
04-10-2011, 09:57 AM
I don't like his approach either but I can imagine a lot worse on my doorstep.
Rosie
like the moonies or my chickens they are not welcome on my doorstep :)
I think the matchstick idea lets excess moisture out of the brood box.
A better way is to leave a round plastic type rapid feeder over the feed hole in the crown board (an empty one)
Moisture rises with warm air into the feeder
The moisture condenses on the central cone/cup and then runs down into the feeder bowl rather than back into the hive.
If the bees need water they can come up for it but they are only likely to when the stores are something like crystallised rape honey.
Most likely winter problem is too much moisture due to condensation rather than lack of moisture I think
Look out for my book "The Threadbare Beekeeper" coming soon
Neils
04-10-2011, 12:43 PM
The barefoot Beekeeper doesn't convince me
Nor me, but he's apparently making money out of his books and lectures/demonstrations. It's what people want to hear: heavy on emotion and righteousness, low on facts. Imagine the joys of having them just on your doorstep...!
I do, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Some of them formed a group in Bristol, high on the above, low on practical beekeeping experience. There's now an offshoot group who still want nothing to do with the BBKA but who appreciate that meetings concentrating on just what a bunch of gits the rest of us are and the evils of anything but putting bees in a top bar/warre hive and then ignoring them is doing nothing for the health of their bees or their enjoyment of beekeeping for that matter. So within our bit of Bristol they're putting together an informal support group, I might just wander along.
I don't actually have a problem with either Warre or Top Bar Hives, it's the mythical properties bestowed upon them and the smug righteousness of people who've never kept bees that goes with them from some quarters I object to.
A better way is to leave a round plastic type rapid feeder over the feed hole in the crown board (an empty one)
Moisture rises with warm air into the feeder
The moisture condenses on the central cone/cup and then runs down into the feeder bowl rather than back into the hive.
interesting idea.
The Drone Ranger
04-10-2011, 12:51 PM
Don't know but it is heavy duty stuff which you would struggle to cut with pliers let alone scissors.
Epoxy coated wire mesh cuts with scissors doesn't rob heat and impervious to acids
.450 Black Epoxy Coated Galvanised Mild Steel aperture is 2.72mm
JT wirecloth advertise in SBA and Beecraft they cut it to size
http://www.jtwirecloth.com/prod06.htm
Epoxy coated wire mesh cuts with scissors doesn't rob heat and impervious to acids [/URL]
Not impervious to the blow torch though, although would certainly have done the job in my correx nucs.
I cut my sheet of galvanised stuff into little pieces with the angle grinder yesterday.
The Beeless Beekeeper would be a better title for the book, as he loses his stock over and over again in mortal combat with the mite using nothing but icing sugar and lard patties. Cutting edge on the biobees site. Maybe the deep fried Mars bar could be spread on a little card like Apiguard and placed over the winter cluster. Nothing like a culture specific solution to the varroa problem.
Interesting that Dan and some of the other commercial beekeepers use solid floors. I have often wondered how many mites slip to their doom through the mesh. I have at least half a dozen colonies on solid floors and they seem happy enough. I have never noticed any difference in varroa levels between mesh floors and solid floors.
madasafish
04-10-2011, 02:00 PM
I started beekeeping last year having read The Barefoot Beekeeper (amongst about 20 other books) and attended our local BBKA apiary..
I have 4x TBH and two warre hives ( one with OMF, one with solid floor) but am by no means wedded to all the ideas espoused in the book. It must be obvious to anyone that an insulated roof is better than a non-insulated one and a floor needed in very cold and windy weather.. So I ignored part of his instructions and did so.
After a -18C winter and snowdrifts I am glad I did.
I insulate on top of the TBH topbars - with carpet underlay and then have an insulated roof. And shut off the OMFs with a (loose fitting ) plank. I did get condensation - on the walls - which ran down and out the gap in the plank/hive boundary and froze to a rather fetching 100mm long icicle.
Both hives survived.
The Warre plan based on the sawdust roof is imo based on 1800s technology so I use a fully insulated (100mm of roof insulation board) , Will be interested to see how it survives.
The matchstick thing I read. I mentally dismissed it like the Forager who clearly condemns something without using one.. (In medieval days his attitude would have resulted in drowning witches etc). And the defence of the Forager in this months News basically said the Forager was wrong.
My experience of beekeeping is there is a lot of learned knowledge but also it's treated as a craft and not a science. I am still a member of the BBKA but they print a load of conventional stuff which is in my view out of date and outmoded by modern materials.
The unwillingness of UK beekeepers to adopt insulated hives is a case in point.
For the record I have just finished construction of my first fully insulated 4 foot TBH...hinged roof and fully insulated floor.
(Unfortunately too late to fill this year )
Be interesting to see how it goes.
( I trained as a physicist so a lot of what I read and see in beekeeping is anathema .. )
The Drone Ranger
04-10-2011, 06:10 PM
Not impervious to the blow torch though, although would certainly have done the job in my correx nucs.
The Beeless Beekeeper would be a better title for the book, as he loses his stock over and over again in mortal combat with the mite using nothing but icing sugar I have never noticed any difference in varroa levels between mesh floors and solid floors.
They do sell very similar mesh made from stainless steel without the epoxy coating.
There is a kind of lemming like view that the only bees with varroa resistance are survivors of the "live and Let Die policy " as Pam Gregory calls it.
That's just wrong Les Bailey made the point that any bees challenged by disease over a long period will develop some resistance.
Logically if bees are exposed to mites whether you help them by treating or not they have the same chance to develop resistance (if that is possible)
The notion that survivor bees are better has been dis proven in the attempts to breed for resistance to AFB.
Unfortunately for bees Varroa are by nature able to adapt and change more quickly than bees.
The Drone Ranger
04-10-2011, 07:12 PM
I started beekeeping last year having read The Barefoot Beekeeper (amongst about 20 other books) and attended our local BBKA apiary..
I have 4x TBH and two warre hives ( one with OMF, one with solid floor) but am by no means wedded to all the ideas espoused in the book. It must be obvious to anyone that an insulated roof is better than a non-insulated one and a floor needed in very cold and windy weather.. So I ignored part of his instructions and did so.
After a -18C winter and snowdrifts I am glad I did.
You go for it my friend it never hurts to do your own thing.
My only advice would be make sure you kill the varroa which might mean spraying with Lactic Acid this month
My experience of beekeeping is there is a lot of learned knowledge but also it's treated as a craft and not a science. I am still a member of the BBKA but they print a load of conventional stuff which is in my view out of date and outmoded by modern materials.
The unwillingness of UK beekeepers to adopt insulated hives is a case in point.
I understand where you are coming from but have a read up on the history of the hive standards. You might be interested that the National hive is correctly called the Modified National. The modification was to dispose of the insulation and outer wall called for in the original standards. Now, you might argue that insulation materials have come a long way, but it's worth noting that even mediocre insulation was deemed unnecessary. Similarly, the Smith hive was devised by a bee farmer on the Scottish Borders... he used BS (National) frames, but adopted a much simpler single-wall box than the National to contain them.
That's the argument against :) The argument for is that they reportedly improve colony wintering and spring start, assuming forage availability. Many of the Scottish bee farmers are moving over to them now. However, for some a small colony that starts to expand late in the spring is an appealing feature...
Neils
05-10-2011, 01:28 AM
Anecdotally I've never insulated my hives and have yet to experience problems resulting from that.
The Drone Ranger
05-10-2011, 08:14 AM
Anecdotally I've never insulated my hives and have yet to experience problems resulting from that.
One year I put carpet squares over the crown board on some hives. They ended up soaking wet. I think when it comes to insulation you either need big lumps of polystyrene or nothing.
Doing nothing works fine for me and it was -13C here last winter
madasafish
05-10-2011, 09:34 AM
Anecdotally I've never insulated my hives and have yet to experience problems resulting from that.
Ah butyou live in deepest coldest Bristol beside the sea. which moderates winter extremes...
As far as Varroa are concerned, I treta with a home made thymol mix which seems to work well..- at least as well as Apiguard.. and about 1/5th of the cost.
I was told (or read somewhere- can't remember which) that match sticks were only to be placed under 2 corners, therefore providing a gap at one side for water vapour to escape through & any accumulating on the crown board would then run down the slant of the board to the side of the hive rather than drip on the cluster. Personally I don't feel that the inclination of the board using this method would be enough for the effect to be as claimed. I did do this last year with polystyrene on top and can't say I was convinced, however my bees made it through the winter & built up well on their own in Spring so wouldn't knock it, however looking for a better way this year.
Using water absorbing material above the crown board would surely be a good idea if you are prepared to replace it before it becomes fully saturated, therefore removing the moisture from the hive rather than it sitting there all winter.
DR- Like the idea of the feeder on top. Have you tried it?
Neils
05-10-2011, 03:49 PM
Ah butyou live in deepest coldest Bristol beside the sea. which moderates winter extremes...
As far as Varroa are concerned, I treta with a home made thymol mix which seems to work well..- at least as well as Apiguard.. and about 1/5th of the cost.
Sure, but over the past two winters we've not been lying on the beach while the rest of the country whines about snow ploughs I can assure you :D
madasafish
05-10-2011, 04:58 PM
Sure, but over the past two winters we've not been lying on the beach while the rest of the country whines about snow ploughs I can assure you :D
lol.
Swimming in the sea instead?
The Drone Ranger
05-10-2011, 06:19 PM
DR- Like the idea of the feeder on top. Have you tried it?
Yes, initially by accident, then it occurred to me leaving the empty rapid feeder was a good idea, so I leave them instead of putting in a bee escape or covering the hole.
But I'm probably nuts :)
Nellie have you been "lying about", "swimming in the sea" or was that predictive text
Nellie have you been "lying about", "swimming in the sea" or was that predictive text
More likely to be riding the Severn Bore on a surf board.
Must try the rapid feeder thing on a couple of colonies. Nothing like an experiment.
gavin
05-10-2011, 07:01 PM
Me too.
If the condensation thing doesn't work you could always tip in some water (or snow, of the white variety) in the New Year.
Severn Bore?! Careful!
G.
I refer to a tidal wall of water as opposed to anything soporific.
nemphlar
05-10-2011, 09:42 PM
haven't seen condensation since using omf, previously found a sugar bag worked as a dessicant above clearer board
Neils
05-10-2011, 11:21 PM
Severn Bore?! Careful!
G.
); *sniff*
gavin
06-10-2011, 12:01 AM
Stop yer greetin, laddie! The Severn Bore is ... an incredible natural phenomenon, something that shows itself well beyond its expected range, something regular and predicted, an energy source showing itself in unusual ways ....
Neonach
06-10-2011, 07:35 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but what is ODF? Do I need it? Do I want it?
I'd welcome the following changes to the Modified National standard hive which would allow better control of temperature, ventilation and humidity. In my view, better control is more a priority than a specific solution.
1) Larger vents in the roof. Larger vents can always be throttled down, it is because the standard vents are so small (or too few) that some feel they need to resort to tricks like matchsticks. I insulate the roof by putting one or more cuts of old wool/wool-rich carpet on the crown board: these allow some air and moisture through (partly by wicking from contact with the crown board), the excess being carried away by air flow between the four standard vents in the roof. However I think the vents are too small and easily blocked by insect coccoons etc: I would like them to be bigger in the first place.
2) a variant of the floor, chambers, roof etc using thicker wood (same internal dimensions - but bigger outside). Let's call it the Heavy National! Wood is naturally relatively warm (less so when dry) and transmits moisture (in driving wind/rain perhaps the wrong way!) but thicker wood is like having thicker concrete floor or walls in a house - it moderates the extremes outside and makes for a steadier environment inside. Thicker walls/floor/roof in a hive better mimicks the natural advantage of a hole in a tree - where feral honey bees would love to make a nest!
gavin
06-10-2011, 08:45 AM
Did you mean OMF? Open Mesh Floor. A complete mesh screen instead of solid wood underneath, usually with the ability to slide in a drawer of some kind underneath to catch the falling detritus and reduce drafts. Most hives sold now have them, but a few years ago solid floors were the norm. Heather floors, around for decades, often had a mesh panel in them to help with ventilation when travelling. Polystyrene hives usually have a similar smallish panel.
I'll feel silly if that wasn't the question.
2) a variant of the floor, chambers, roof etc using thicker wood (same internal dimensions - but bigger outside). Let's call it the Heavy National! Wood is naturally relatively warm (less so when dry) and transmits moisture (in driving wind/rain perhaps the wrong way!) but thicker wood is like having thicker concrete floor or walls in a house - it moderates the extremes outside and makes for a steadier environment inside. Thicker walls/floor/roof in a hive better mimicks the natural advantage of a hole in a tree - where feral honey bees would love to make a nest!
Or a WBC?
As for increasing ventilation, I wouldn't tinker with a well-tried design unless there is real evidence that it is necessary. It is rare that you see bees at the entrance ventilating in the UK - perhaps at the height of a really strong flow in hot weather. Increasing ventilation may just stress them at other times. I can see the need for matchsticks during strong flows in hot countries, but apart from that I'm with Jon - Eiffel Tower models only.
Neonach
06-10-2011, 08:51 AM
Gavin,
One of the contributors is unnamed - goes by the name of Pinguis Imperium. (Does that mean Imperial Penguin?)
Emperor Penguin. To style oneself thus might suggest a degree of belief in one's own stature and importance in the world. ;~)
Neonach
06-10-2011, 08:57 AM
Did you mean OMF? Open Mesh Floor. ... I'll feel silly if that wasn't the question.
You'll be relieved to know Gavin that you're not silly. Typo on my part, but because I never have to consider mesh floors here (no varroa and so windy and never really hot so I really don't need that much ventilation!) it didn't occur to me that was what was being referred to - I thought it might be a novel material for making hives!
gavin
06-10-2011, 09:03 AM
I did wonder if you were thinking MDF. I'm sure that someone will have put that on the top deliberately to absorb moisture.
Neonach
06-10-2011, 09:15 AM
Or a WBC?
Yes!! WBCs are out so out of fashion - dismissed as not for serious beekeping; but I've been persisting in experimenting with mine and have to say that it offers significant advantages. I won't rehearse all those here as there's been more than a century of doing just that, and I don't think I can say anything that will change folks views. However I will say that the smaller size is no great disadvantage with AMM and our pretty severe island environment, where colonies tend to be small anyway: more colonies if smaller is a good survival strategy. The double wall keeps the cold gale-driven rain off the internal boxes, and here that has far greater significance than more sheltered or moderrate environments. The only real downside is the faffing around with the external lifts, though currently I think that is a price well worth paying.
What I've noticed, incidentally, is that even in windy weather, lift the lid off the WBC and there's likely to be some bees hanging around in the space between inner and outer walls. Quite breezy there but they don't seem to mind. Perhaps it's the equivalent of office workers hanging around in the stair wells for a smoke!
It strikes me that with a WBC it is is much less of a tricky matter to adjust ventilation of the inner chambers (for example by adding more layers of carpet on the crown board to both insulate and restrict air flow, or fitting bee escapes to the crown/clearing board, or by uplifting an Ashforth feeder with matchsticks) - because the outer wall remains as 'weather-proof' as intended.
Neonach,
Interestingly you wish for larger roof vents when I cover the vents (bee escapes) with insulation and don't see any damp in the winter or summer. (With a mesh floor).
When there is a strong flow on in warm weather, I think there is an argument for increasing the roof ventillation in the summer to allow warm moist air to rise; otherwise the bees may have to fan damp air 3 feet downwards and out of the entrance which mush be harder. I generally don't open the top of the hives for this purpose though as a tree hollow would not have this facility.
Gavin: WBC's. I have read (Herrod-Hempstall in the 40's?) of the idea of filling the cavity and above the crown board with dry leaves. Insulation and the ability to breathe. The best of polystyrene and gortex combined!
As I have 5 WBC's in my selection of hives I suppose I could try it. (Good for mice too, I think).
Jon, the beauty of a mesh floor is the ability to monitor the varroa drop. Do you have any method of doing this with your solids?
Neotach,
The lifts of a WBC will keep driving rain of the brood box and a wet box will not insulate as well as a dry one.
The lifts are a bit of a pain I agree especially if they don't all fit each other or you don't have enough.
All my wife imagined was one white WBC on the lawn. Currently I have 5 WBC's. A dozen or so single walled hives. A fetching blue and terrracotta coloured MB polyhive and some large mini-nucs. Plus a workshop in the back garden with extraction room. And I've taken over the kid's den to keep supers in! I must be mad.
Jon, the beauty of a mesh floor is the ability to monitor the varroa drop. Do you have any method of doing this with your solids?
I can't monitor the mite fall in the colonies with solid floors but I reckon by monitoring a few colonies on mesh floors I get an idea of the mite levels overall in the apiary.
As Finman used to say elsewhere - no need to count mites, just kill them all!
You can get surprises though. When I did the Oxalic treatment last December some colonies dropped no mites at all yet I had one which dropped about 100. All had September apiguard treatment. I suppose it could have robbed out a weak colony somewhere and taken the mites home. The queen is still going strong so obviously did her no harm.
Open mesh floors are presented as essential for mite control in most quarters these days but I have my doubts as to whether it makes a huge amount of difference.
All my wife imagined was one white WBC on the lawn. Currently I have 5 WBC's. A dozen or so single walled hives. A fetching blue and terrracotta coloured MB polyhive and some large mini-nucs. Plus a workshop in the back garden with extraction room. And I've taken over the kid's den to keep supers in! I must be mad.
I remember the picture from the bbka site. Clearly, if not completely mad, we are all mildly eccentric but that is normal for a beekeeper.
I can't monitor the mite fall in the colonies with solid floors but I reckon by monitoring a few colonies on mesh floors I get an idea of the mite levels overall in the apiary.
As Finman used to say elsewhere - no need to count mites, just kill them all!
You can get surprises though. When I did the Oxalic treatment last December some colonies dropped no mites at all yet I had one which dropped about 100. All had September apiguard treatment. I suppose it could have robbed out a weak colony somewhere and taken the mites home. The queen is still going strong so obviously did her no harm.
Open mesh floors are presented as essential for mite control in most quarters these days but I have my doubts as to whether it makes a huge amount of difference.
I remember the picture from the bbka site. Clearly, if not completely mad, we are all mildly eccentric but that is normal for a beekeeper.
Fuinman makes a good point - I possibly don't monitor as much as I should but if I blast them in August and December then they should be OK.
I think a good OMF does help - both in losing mites and counting them. However my varroa damaged colony didn't look too bad for mites and then suddenly it was collapsing and the mite fall was still not too high. (Being robbed didn't help much though). I hope it's now OK but if it didn't get through winter I would not be too surprised.
The MB Poly National has a panel of mesh floor that is plastic with quite a lot of square edged plastic so it would be easy for some mites to not fall through and then crawl back up.
Mellifera Crofter
06-10-2011, 05:38 PM
As for increasing ventilation, I wouldn't tinker with a well-tried design unless there is real evidence that it is necessary. It is rare that you see bees at the entrance ventilating in the UK - perhaps at the height of a really strong flow in hot weather. Increasing ventilation may just stress them at other times. I can see the need for matchsticks during strong flows in hot countries, but apart from that I'm with Jon - Eiffel Tower models only.
Neonach,
Interestingly you wish for larger roof vents when I cover the vents (bee escapes) with insulation and don't see any damp in the winter or summer. (With a mesh floor).
Gavin and Adam,
I thought the larger vents in the roof that Neonach suggesed (#45) is more in line with what Chris said (#18): a ventilation gap above the (breathable) insulating material, but under the roof, will wick away moisture while the bees will not suffer from any drafts.
... or did I misunderstand something? If so, sorry.
Kitta
chris
06-10-2011, 07:10 PM
As we are in the highlands my husband wants to wrap the hive in bubble wrap ( he has a free source). Is he mad?
In France, the apicultural research institutions have looked into the question of wall insulation. The advantage of it is that the bees consume 10%-15% less stores. The downside is that the extra warmth tricks the bees into starting brood raising too early.The foragers are forced to bring back very cold water with all the risks that follow, and are also tired out doing very little of any use. The unwrapped colonies, although they develop later, have a much bigger and quicker build up, their bees being more numerous and better rested.
Gavin and Adam,
I thought the larger vents in the roof that Neonach suggesed (#45) is more in line with what Chris said (#18): a ventilation gap above the (breathable) insulating material, but under the roof, will wick away moisture while the bees will not suffer from any drafts.
... or did I misunderstand something? If so, sorry.
Kitta
My mistake, you are right. Actually some of my roofs have ventillation some don't and I see no difference between the two. I put insulation on the crown board and pop the roof on top. Never seen any dampness.
I'll have to monitor my poly hive and see if the bees respond in the way you describe. (1 hive is not a good scientific test of course).
So Chris, from the research you mention, the answer would be to keep the bees cool and then insulate heavily in early Spring to get a fast build-up.
If its water that they need to dilute honey, a small pool inside the hive might work. (Or a pet-rabbit water feeder perhaps?). As Jon writes Clearly, if not completely mad, we are all mildly eccentric but that is normal for a beekeeper.
chris
07-10-2011, 02:16 PM
So Chris, from the research you mention, the answer would be to keep the bees cool and then insulate heavily in early Spring to get a fast build-up.
For those who like tinkering, yes. Personally I leave the bees to decide when things are ready for them to start off. But then again that depends on when the first important flow will occur.
Emperor Penguin. To style oneself thus might suggest a degree of belief in one's own stature and importance in the world. ;~)
Indeed. And by hiding behind a pseudonym there's a certain element of "listen but don't argue" going on.
I think it would be healthier to know who is writing, because everyone has their preferences and pet topics. I'm just as guilty of this!
The Drone Ranger
07-10-2011, 10:00 PM
Indeed. And by hiding behind a pseudonym there's a certain element of "listen but don't argue" going on.
I think it would be healthier to know who is writing, because everyone has their preferences and pet topics. I'm just as guilty of this!
Lol
What's a pseudonym Dan ?
I was surprised to find an innuendo was not an Italian suppository
I was surprised to find an innuendo was not an Italian suppository
Lol - on the same basis an endoscope is perfectly named...
chris
17-10-2011, 02:43 PM
I've just visited a colony, where I hadforgotten to put on an entrance reducer, so the entrance was still 2 cm. high and running the whole width of the hive. This being my *propolise everything* colony, they had blocked the entrance, leaving just a 5cm. wide gap at each edge. The hive has a solid wood floor. I am assuming the bees were adjusting the ventilation to their liking, a small gap at each side ?
Back to the original thread - sorry....
The latest issue of the BBKA magazine has again got Mr Penguin writing about matchsticks. Obviously he hasn't got the idea that polyhives have been used on the continent for many years with a non-ventillated and well insulated roof.
Now if we consider that condensation will settle on the coldest surface, it will potentially settle on (the underside of) the crown board which is just 3 mm thick plywood compared to 20 mm timber of the rest of the hive. So is there a fundamental design error in the crown board as is now supplied in that it should be thicker than the walls of the hive to give better insulation and stop condensation forming above the cluster. OR will the crown board be dry directly above the cluster due to the heat it produces and the condensation will develop around the edges of the warmed crown board where its a little cooler, i.e. a circle a few inches diameter?
susbees
16-01-2012, 03:33 PM
It's something that I was mulling over yet again as the Beecraft investor-BKA reps (sorry, delegates :)) said their piece at the ADM last weekend: that their should be no pseudonyms in the BBKA news. There shouldn't be any hiding behind your opinions. I would dearly like to know who both Mr Penguin - for we assume the writer to be Mr and The Forager are. PMs accepted of course :).
My commercials are all wintered with fully open entrances with mouseguards, some have an empty super under the floor to reduce the draughts and rising damp (as in those we haven't built stands for yet!) and all have 100mm Kingspan offcut in the deep roof with an embedded takeaway container with removeable section over and many with polycarb quilts. Apart from OA the lids crown boards will stay firmly on til Spring.
As for the tbh...we have a few I use for bees for mating nucs and cut comb, they have OMF, reduced entrances and roll insulation from B&Q (the subsidised plastic stuff).
Matchsticks? Never ;)
Neils
16-01-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm reliably informed that mr penguin is instead Latin for "fat controller".
Agree that the columnists shouldn't be writing under pseudonyms by default. Especially when putting out articles criticising others or dishing out advice for that matter.
derekm
25-01-2014, 08:22 PM
Back to the original thread - sorry....
The latest issue of the BBKA magazine has again got Mr Penguin writing about matchsticks. Obviously he hasn't got the idea that polyhives have been used on the continent for many years with a non-ventillated and well insulated roof.
Now if we consider that condensation will settle on the coldest surface, it will potentially settle on (the underside of) the crown board which is just 3 mm thick plywood compared to 20 mm timber of the rest of the hive. So is there a fundamental design error in the crown board as is now supplied in that it should be thicker than the walls of the hive to give better insulation and stop condensation forming above the cluster. OR will the crown board be dry directly above the cluster due to the heat it produces and the condensation will develop around the edges of the warmed crown board where its a little cooler, i.e. a circle a few inches diameter?
I have measured that matchstick under the crown board halves the already poor heat retention of a standard cedar national hive.
The Drone Ranger
26-01-2014, 12:41 PM
As we are in the highlands my husband wants to wrap the hive in bubble wrap ( he has a free source). Is he mad?
Yes :)
Unless you need to post it to a friend
Bridget
26-01-2014, 12:44 PM
Goodness Drone Ranger, that post was from 2011. I hope I've learnt a bit since then. Must be bad weather with you too if you are going back that far!
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The Drone Ranger
26-01-2014, 12:53 PM
LOL!!
Hi Bridget
Nice to hear from you
That's what I get when I click on latest posts
Bad rain at the moment
I was in the shed sorting out Nucleus boxes yesterday but the roof leaks in places so I an hiding indoors
I leave the empty rapid feeder over the hole in the cover board
That way moisture gets up into the feeder condenses on the cone and stays in the feeder rather than dripping back down on the bees
Don't know if its necessary but it doesn't do any harm
You have a bee house now so weather won't be an issue ??
Bridget
28-01-2014, 10:01 AM
Quite a few modifications to be done to the bee house when spring comes - some insulation for a start as when it's v cold it can be a degree colder inside! We also have to change how the hive entrances but up to the wall as it's easy to not push the hive hard against it and the bees end up on the floor and not in the hive. Also need to plant a small hedge infront and some trees around to cut the wind. Apart from that it's great to have everything in one place. Still pretty cold here and seem to be having a power cut at present. Not seen any bees for weeks.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have measured that matchstick under the crown board halves the already poor heat retention of a standard cedar national hive.
It's a bit like leaving the loft hatch open all winter.
Many moons ago, in the absence of foil-backed expanded polystyrene, 'quilts' were used as insulation on the top of the frames. A small length of wood was put across the frames in winter to act as a bee-way to allow the bees to move from comb to comb. I think this was before a plywood crown-board was used.
rogerb
29-01-2014, 01:28 PM
Many moons ago? I'm still doing that along with a block of candy; "just in case".......
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