Pollen Feeding

[POPZ]

Having only one colony, and having built it up from last seasons nuc, I am looking to divide and increase my stock this coming season. Having hefted the hive, there appears to be plenty of food there still, and capping pieces falling through the OMF in good quantity.

So in order to stimulate brood production I made up some pollen substitute this afternoon with a view to having a peek under the crown board during the week and putting the pollen on the frames. Choosing this time because our worthy weather forecasters are talking about 'warmer' weather mid-week.

I realise this may entail having to feed later on to match the increased demand as brood hatches.

Any thoughts on pollen substitute feeding at this time, or indeed doing it at all???

[gavin]

Ah .. the perpetual fiddling of the beginner! But OK, pump them up early if you want increase - but watch out for getting them too far out of synchrony with your seasons. Pollen *substitute* with no pollen, right? Or irradiated-to-death pollen? Otherwise I could see where the first case of Nosema ceranae in the hebrides could turn up (not that I know pollen to be a vector for such disease, but it seems likely - along with foulbrood).

[rourkie]

Hi popz I would reluctant to stimulate this early, I would wait until atleast mid march preferably to begining of april to stimulate and i would use syrup .Spring is later this year and if you stimulate to early the brood nest may be to large for the bees to keep warm if we get another cold snap. you will have plenty of time to build your colony up and make splits. regards Rourkie

[POPZ]

Scrivens Gavin, you really do know how to scare of a beginner! - Nosema ceranae, out of sync with season, irradiated pollen?? It sounds like a really bad idea!

The pollen substitute does contain honey from my neighbour which means it should be free of any nasties, and that is where my nuc came from in the first instance. Otherwise only soya bean flour and brewers yeast. I do understand about getting out of sync, so does that mean waiting till the ladies are really flying by which time they will be getting fresh pollen and will have no need for a substitute? This could be a long wait and leading up to a slow season start?

What is the best way to optomise colony build up, and without any perpetual fiddling? Actually I have not lifted the roof since November, just talked to them on a daily basis. This, of course, may well have put the little darlings off:)

[gavin]

Sorry! Your fiddling has been less than mine ....

Non-pollen protein sources and trusted Mull honey - should be fine health-wise. Rourkie is right to urge caution on encouraging too early a build-up, but what you are wishing to do is to get them using their honey stores early to fill more frames with bees so that once the local forage sources do come in you already have a strong colony. March might be a time to try that. Eggs laid in early March will give bees that fly in mid to late April - will you have forage for them then? Mid March would mean flying bees at the end of April and early May, possibly better.

G.

[POPZ]

Hi popz I would reluctant to stimulate this early, I would wait until atleast mid march preferably to begining of april to stimulate and i would use syrup .Spring is later this year and if you stimulate to early the brood nest may be to large for the bees to keep warm if we get another cold snap. you will have plenty of time to build your colony up and make splits. regards Rourkie

Rourkie - sorry I missed out your reply somehow. I take your point, but i was under the impression that one of the main causes of death at this time was shortage of pollen stores. I guess I wanted to make sure they were getting enough protein etc, that they may need.

[QUOTE=Gavin] what you are wishing to do is to get them using their honey stores early to fill more frames with bees so that once the local forage sources do come in you already have a strong colony.[QUOTE]

Gavin, I am not sure what you mean by this? How do we get them to use up honey stores and what relationship has this with pollen? Is it not better to get the queen down into the brood box ( I am brood and a half) then add a super as soon as any flow starts? Am I missing something here and talking baloney?

[rourkie]

hi Popz In my experiance a shortage of pollen will not lead to the death of a colony, but a shortage of stores will(honey ,syrup).Bees will not take syrup if it is to cold better to feed candy.You wish to stimulate spring build up to enable you to increase colonies, Feed syrup as a stimulant when spring has sprung and they will build up quickly. You can still feed your protien it will not do any harm.feeding syrup as soon as is it safe stimulates the bees they think they have a flow on and go for it. You are using a brood and a half if possible switch to double brood its so much easir to make increase if your bees are all on deep frames, and generaly to manage colonies, Regards rourkie

[POPZ]

hi Popz In my experiance a shortage of pollen will not lead to the death of a colony, but a shortage of stores will(honey ,syrup).Bees will not take syrup if it is to cold better to feed candy.You wish to stimulate spring build up to enable you to increase colonies, Feed syrup as a stimulant when spring has sprung and they will build up quickly. You can still feed your protien it will not do any harm.feeding syrup as soon as is it safe stimulates the bees they think they have a flow on and go for it. You are using a brood and a half if possible switch to double brood its so much easir to make increase if your bees are all on deep frames, and generaly to manage colonies, Regards rourkie

Thanks for all that Rourkie. So pollen substitute does not stimulate them, and so safe to feed now. Is that correct?
Why is a double brood easier to make increase and to manage colonies generally? Hope you don't mind all these questions, but it is all very interesting and important to get things as right as possible before the season starts.
POPZ

[rourkie]

hi popz pollen will not stimulate your bees as feeding syrup in the spring will if you want to feed pollen substitute now thats fine but make sure they have enough stores. At the moment you have one colony as soon as you have two or more you will want to be able to swap frames of bees ,brood, or stores between colonies. you do this for a lot of different feasons, frames of stores brood and foundation are used to make up nucs if you mix deep frames and shallow in the same box it causes problems . if you use double brood all you brood rearing is done on a standard size frame, build up on 2bb and you can split the top box from the bottom you have 2 colonies one queen right one queen less the queenless hive can use its brood to make queen cells. .There are many more reasons why you will want a standard size brood frame,hope this helps.Regards Rourkie

[gavin]

Hi Popz

Without bees occupying a second brood box you'll not have the same ability to split the colony to make increase, but if you get them working two brood boxes fully then you might be able to split one of those boxes into three nuclei to help solve that bee shortage on Mull. If you build them up then you might end up with two boxes full of bees and congested - that is when they are likely to make queen cells. Less prolific bees or a poorer environment for them might mean that they struggle to fill the two boxes and so don't go reproductive as that congestion is a trigger for queen raising.

Why not try your protein patties and - when it warms up - light syrup too? If your mentor has a look you'll be able to judge together whether or not your strategy worked. Normally there would be no need for you to push the bees like this, but you are trying to do something a little unusual. People who rely on an oilseed rape harvest sometimes do this too. It does mean that you will need to keep feeding once you start (until the flows appear in your area) and that you will miss the chance to see how the bees tailor their behaviour to their surroundings.

Remember the drones. If you end up splitting your only colony then the virgin(s) will need a good supply of drones from several other colonies to get properly fertilised. If you are more than a mile or so away from other apiaries (with the right kind of drone!) you might think of putting your splits into nuc boxes and taking them closer to a supply of drones. And, of course, if you are successful in pushing your colony ahead of all the others in the area then they may not have mature drones when your queens are flying. Some will though - colonies in warm sunny spots in flowery Tobermory, for example, are likely to be far ahead of those on a wind-swept hillside.

hope that helps

Gavin

[Trog]

Excellent advice Gavin!

[POPZ]

hi popz pollen will not stimulate your bees as feeding syrup in the spring will if you want to feed pollen substitute now thats fine but make sure they have enough stores. At the moment you have one colony as soon as you have two or more you will want to be able to swap frames of bees ,brood, or stores between colonies. you do this for a lot of different feasons, frames of stores brood and foundation are used to make up nucs if you mix deep frames and shallow in the same box it causes problems . if you use double brood all you brood rearing is done on a standard size frame, build up on 2bb and you can split the top box from the bottom you have 2 colonies one queen right one queen less the queenless hive can use its brood to make queen cells. .There are many more reasons why you will want a standard size brood frame,hope this helps.Regards Rourkie

rourkie, that all makes a great deal of sense, thank you. Will probably come back to you as the season progresses:)


Hi Popz
Remember the drones. If you end up splitting your only colony then the virgin(s) will need a good supply of drones from several other colonies to get properly fertilised. If you are more than a mile or so away from other apiaries (with the right kind of drone!) you might think of putting your splits into nuc boxes and taking them closer to a supply of drones. And, of course, if you are successful in pushing your colony ahead of all the others in the area then they may not have mature drones when your queens are flying. Some will though - colonies in warm sunny spots in flowery Tobermory, for example, are likely to be far ahead of those on a wind-swept hillside.
Gavin

Gavin, a lovely afternoon here and a few of the ladies are staggering around their wee hoose.
Regarding the drones, I thought Beowulf stated that they could congregate at quite large distances. Unfortunately I have lent his book out and must get it back, it is such a good read. Whatever ,it is a valid point that I had not considered. Is this why some folk concentrate on drone rearing early in the season?

Again thanks for your input. I will be back!!!
POPZ

[gavin]

Hi Popz

Yes, drones will fly a long way, up to 40 miles I believe. Suddenly Mull doesn't seem so isolated from mainland Varroa! However if you want your queens well mated it is wise to consider having drones sources nearby, especially if the weather is unpredictable. Yes, some people put effort into early drone raising, particularly if they are hoping to raise early queens. In this case they would normally use several colonies for raising drones, as the genetic diversity you get from one colony is too small to sustain a population. On the other had you get more diversity in the queens from one colony, as they come from eggs fertilised with the semen from several drones.

all the best

Gavin

[POPZ]

Hi Popz Yes, some people put effort into early drone raising, particularly if they are hoping to raise early queens. In this case they would normally use several colonies for raising drones, as the genetic diversity you get from one colony is too small to sustain a population. On the other hand you get more diversity in the queens from one colony, as they come from eggs fertilised with the semen from several drones.
all the best - Gavin

Gavin - the latter bit above appears to be a contradiction of the former bit - if you follow me? I must be misunderstanding something here ??
POPZ

[Trog]

Yes, drones will fly a long way, up to 40 miles I believe. Suddenly Mull doesn't seem so isolated from mainland Varroa!
I wouldn't want anyone reading this to think it's OK to bring bees into Mull because mainland drones will bring in Varroa anyway. Fortunately, I don't think Morvern, Lorn and Ardnamurchan are so heavily populated with colonies, infested or otherwise, that this is likely ... but we still check once a year just in case.

[gavin]

Quite agree Trog. The flight across the water might put them off to some extent and so Mull is not *that* connected to the mainland, bee-wise. But it might be worth trying to keep in touch with beekeepers across the narrower reaches to see what they are up to.

Popz, there is one gene which is really important for bees as it determines gender! If an egg has two versions the same (or more usually just one version) then it is male (males are usually haploid from unfertilised eggs). Only if diploid and with two different versions will it be female (worker or queen).

So a queen carries two versions in her own cells (let's say a and b) and maybe another 10 in the sperm in her spermatheca (c, d, e, f, g, h, i .... ).

She will make a mix of fertilised eggs (e.g. ad, bi, ac, af, bg, bh ..... ) but the only drones she can make are either a or b.

So on the male side diversity quickly narrows. You need several queens to keep the diversity going, and drones from these several queens.

Questions?!

Gavin

[POPZ]

Gavin,
The deeper it gets, the more murky it becomes! But your explanation is good and clear - thanks. I guess that this sort of thing is what makes 'lady' and 'gentlemen' keeping such a fascinating subject.

I really must get my copy of Beowulfs book back because I remember reading much about this and very interesting it is. Have we gone off topic here?? tut tut.
POPZ

[POPZ]

Hi Popz

Without bees occupying a second brood box you'll not have the same ability to split the colony to make increase, but if you get them working two brood boxes fully then you might be able to split one of those boxes into three nuclei to help solve that bee shortage on Mull. If you build them up then you might end up with two boxes full of bees and congested - that is when they are likely to make queen cells. Less prolific bees or a poorer environment for them might mean that they struggle to fill the two boxes and so don't go reproductive as that congestion is a trigger for queen raising. Gavin

Not sure here what you mean when you say 'Less prolific bees or a poorer environment for them might mean that they struggle to fill the two boxes and so don't go reproductive as that congestion is a trigger for queen raising.' I understand that I may be in a poorer environment but I don't understand why that should be a problem for double brood. Especially as I am now feeding in order to help the build up.
POPZ

[gavin]

Hi Popz

You can often predict when a colony is going to make swarm preparations, and use this to manipulate things to encourage that natural swarming impulse.

What makes a colony raise queen cells?

1. A deficit of queen substance. Queen is getting old, or has died, or the brood has been moved even within a stack of boxes to be distant from the queen, or even the cessation of a flow means that there are lots of workers at home (see also 2).

2. The colony can see that it is almost out of space.

Number 2 is fairly potent, so that giving them plenty of space in advance of their needs can delay or prevent swarming preparations.

So that second brood box can be tantamount to giving them plenty of space. Some bees may struggle to fill two brood boxes (even if fed?) and so that part of the trigger to make queen cells might be weaker.

On my decent colonies which are strong early in the spring I try to give a second brood box, then one or perhaps two supers while the main spring flow (oilseed rape) is still strong and they can fill them. Leaving them short of space towards the end of the flow encourages congestion and helps trigger queen cell formation.

If they don't make queen cells at that stage you can encourage them to do so by separating queen from young brood as I've described before.

Was that any better? Keep 'em short of space and they'll try to swarm?!

all the best

Gavin

[POPZ]

Gavin. Yes that all makes sense and gets to the point I don't really understand. If it is possible, as you say, to enforce the making of queen cells by removing the queen from the brood, then what is the problem with double brood that so many folk seem to have? It seems to me that this is a win win situation and so why is double brood not a standard manipulation for increase? To me it seems such a sensible way to go, particularly as it means splits are so easy.

Maybe I have yet again missed something here?

[The Drone Ranger]

Popz
Its too late to think about this for this year now but if I only had one colony and wanted to to make an increase I would use a Snelgrove board
The reason is that you can do it as soon as you have flying drones available.
You don't weaken the colony so you still will have a good chance of honey
If it does go wrong and your new queen is lost or fails to mate you still can just move some eggs above the board to try again
If you don't fancy doing that or your new queen has problems that you can just recombine the boxes and you will still have bees
Snelgrove's little book about swarming is the best available giving all the options not just using his board.