View Full Version : What's going on here?
Yesterday was very warm and the bees were busy. One colony had lots of bees in small clumps stretching back from the hive entrance, some on the back of the roof, some on the ground beside and behind the hive, more or less in the approach line to the apiary. Lots of frantic abdomen-cleaning. We took a couple of videos but I'm not sure if it's possible to attach them. Advice welcome. I've had a look at the sample bees and can't see anything obvious.
Possibilities would include poisoning, trachael mite, nosema or starvation all of which can produce little clumps of bees huddled together. on or around the hive.
Have you looked in to check the level of stores. I see this in my apideas if they run out of food.
If bees are poisoned you often see the tongue sticking out but that is unlikely at this time of year.
Definitely not starvation; they're a big colony choc-a-bloc with stores and getting their winter feed to top up. They were given all brand new foundation when they arrived as a swarm in May, built up amazingly, and gave us a very heavy super of honey. Hardly any K wings. I do wonder about poisoning - not agricultural but Rentokil. A colony was poisoned in the school years ago (I lost 2 colonies as a result because they went robbing - same poison found in them as used at the school) and building work there may have opened up the entrance to the powdered stores (but in the original case we had lots of disoriented bees flying around and this isn't happening this time). Perhaps they've been feeding on flowers in tubs treated against vine weevil (the poison has a warning that it's dangerous to bees) somewhere. Probably nosema, then ... they're being tested for that just now anyway but I'm sending a sample from the clumped bees for analysis on Monday. Saw this happening on the same colony a few weeks ago, too, but only on good flying days.
Neils
29-09-2011, 04:22 PM
Trog, sent you a pm re getting video up.
The blighters weren't so ill they couldn't sting - as one did when I went to pick up a pile of cut grass, not realising they were even falling that far away from the hive! My wrist is not a pretty sight :(
The Drone Ranger
29-09-2011, 07:48 PM
Hi Trog
Are there lots of dead bees on the floor ?
I would haul out the entrance and rake the floor out to see if there are
I'll give it a go when I can get gloves back on over my wrist! What would that indicate? I'm going to send off a sample to SASA on Monday.
gavin
29-09-2011, 09:37 PM
What would that indicate?
That your wrists have swollen?! Sorry ... couldn't resist.
Are you up to wrenching off the head together with the first thoracic segment? A hand lens - or good eyesight - might tell you if you have the signs of acarine which, as has been said, is one reason for such die-offs. I know a man who does it with a thumbnail. I think that k-wing symptoms are optional with acarine, and its presence isn't diagnostic anyway.
G.
Back in the 1970s my father used to help out a local beekeeper, one of the gentry class of beekeepers, you know the type, and he got a phone call to ask his advice about a hive which had produced all these 'mini swarms' all around the hive. It turned out to be a severe case of acarine. Groups of up to a couple of hundred bees were clumped together and climbing up stalks of grass in front of the hive. He told the story recently which is why it sticks in my mind. Obviously I can hardly remember the 1970s same problem as DR.
The Drone Ranger
29-09-2011, 10:51 PM
I'll give it a go when I can get gloves back on over my wrist! What would that indicate? I'm going to send off a sample to SASA on Monday.
If I raked the floor and not many dead bees were there I wouldn't worry too much (I would still worry a bit)
But if the floor is covered in dead bees then something bad is happening because the bees should be keeping the floor clear at this time of year and then I would worry a lot :)
That your wrists have swollen?! Sorry ... couldn't resist.
Are you up to wrenching off the head together with the first thoracic segment? A hand lens - or good eyesight - might tell you if you have the signs of acarine which, as has been said, is one reason for such die-offs. I know a man who does it with a thumbnail. I think that k-wing symptoms are optional with acarine, and its presence isn't diagnostic anyway.
G.
I took off a couple of heads and, bearing in mind the excellent illustrations posted on this very forum a couple of days ago, took a look with a hand lens. Looked OK, but that's only 2. Small clumps, not 100s ... maybe five or so in each clump but lots of clumps.
Meanwhile, no sleep at all last night ... wrist, hand, forearm all swollen, red and small itchy bumps. Worst reaction I've ever had and I wasn't even working the bees, just minding my own business in the garden! Illogical, I know, but somehow it seems fair to be stung while working bees but when I'm not bothering them in any way!
Apparently acarine is much less common in the UK since beekeepers started to use thymol treatments for varroa, but your varroa free bees have probably never had a snifter of thymol. Fingers crossed it is something else.
Well, Jon, I'd rather it wasn't anything! At least thymol seems to work, from what I've read. Last time I had it the only suggestion was creosote in the smoker and they were too far gone for it to work. In fact, we didn't see it in the days when the boxes were painted with creosote!
The Drone Ranger
30-09-2011, 08:05 PM
Hi Trog
Is it all over now or still happening??
Droney, I've no idea - spent most of the day in bed guzzling antihistamines and paracetamol, feeling grotty!
The Drone Ranger
30-09-2011, 10:56 PM
Hi Trog
Best get that checked out by the Doc I think.
Just in case you have had a tick bite or something as well.
Also people can have been stung hundreds of times and then for no reason have serious allergic reactions
Phoned doc - said to take antihistamines and paracetamol! Good old-fashioned Calamine lotion seems to be best on the itching. No tick bites this time but we do get them in the garden since the deer started coming in. I don't react to those but clegs cause problems. Think the swelling's going down a bit today. I don't get stung very often (gentlish bees gently handled); this was just unfortunate!
nemphlar
01-10-2011, 01:21 PM
Not much help now, but may help next year. I was advised years ago to give up due to worsening reaction at one stage needed an injection at A&E. Pre internet I found a paper in the Mor ibrary that advised each spring taking 2 pyriton and 1 aspirin 30mins before catching your bee and forcing it to sting more difficult than you migh think. I did this for a few years, it worked for me to the point where I now dont bother. Not a cure for those with serious reaction issues, but may help those at the uncomfortable stage. Don't know if anyone else has tried this.
The Drone Ranger
01-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Phoned doc - said to take antihistamines and paracetamol! Good old-fashioned Calamine lotion seems to be best on the itching. No tick bites this time but we do get them in the garden since the deer started coming in. I don't react to those but clegs cause problems. Think the swelling's going down a bit today. I don't get stung very often (gentlish bees gently handled); this was just unfortunate!
That's good
We have deer in our field and they have ticks which can carry Lymes disease.
That starts off like flu and if left gets into your system permanently.
Like Nemphlar was saying I was chatting some years ago with a chap who kept bees most of his life and his wife helped.
She had been stung hundreds of times over the years then out of the blue had Anaphylactic shock and had to be carted off to hospital.
The tolerance treatment didn't work for her so it was no bees afterwards (personally I would have just got an Epipen)
That's a good reason for trying to select the gentler bees although they sometimes are less productive
I was tested for Lymes disease a couple of years ago as I do pick up the odd tick now and again. Got attacked by deer flies a few days ago while fishing. Horrible things. Today, I tried the tarantella treatment to see if that helped the arm swelling to go down. Seems to have helped!
The Drone Ranger
02-10-2011, 10:04 AM
I was tested for Lymes disease a couple of years ago as I do pick up the odd tick now and again. Got attacked by deer flies a few days ago while fishing. Horrible things. Today, I tried the tarantella treatment to see if that helped the arm swelling to go down. Seems to have helped!
Dancing round like a dervish to Led Zep with the divining rod between your teeth was my next suggestion.
I think there is a bit of toast in my mead but it could be a deer fly
A touch of thymol in your tea should keep the ticks at bay
gavin
02-10-2011, 10:48 AM
If you decide to follow DL's advice I demand that Mr Trog record the event on video (even as a photo at a pinch). I'll gladly host the files on SBAi.
I've been throwing thymol in spirit into large vats of warm syrup in the last few days and the fleas are jumping off me.
Hope that you are feeling better Trog, DL's posts surely help with that!
In my case the tarantella treatment involved some vigorous exercise in the form of digging spuds! Seemed to help at the time.
The Drone Ranger
02-10-2011, 12:28 PM
In my case the tarantella treatment involved some vigorous exercise in the form of digging spuds! Seemed to help at the time.
Jon recons boiled then fried is the healthy option
Treat yourself to a low calorie mars bar (that's one without the batter)
Droney, I may be Glaswegian but I've never been able to face a whole Mars Bar, battered or not. I can just about manage one over a week, kept in the fridge and cut into 1cm slices, but it's not my chocolate of choice. Very very dark chocolate is more my style, and that only at the rate of one square every other day.
Dancing round like a dervish to Led Zep with the divining rod between your teeth was my next suggestion.
My vote goes to Black Dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tlSx0jkuLM&ob=av2n
I've had the results from SASA - acarine. Suggestions for treatment, please?
Acarine is the Black Dog diagnosis as it is difficult to treat.
Not many options.
There is some literature about grease patties being effective but I would be inclined to let them go if you have other healthy colonies which are not displaying the symptoms.
gavin
15-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Dave Cushman has details of grease patties if you wish to give that a go and can get the ingredients.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/acarinetreatment.html
However colonies' powers of recovery are low at this time of year. But if they do survive earmark them for re-queening and keep their drone production low.
Neils
16-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Thymol should be effective against acarine too.
Perhaps not a great suggestion at this time of year given the temperatures and I've no idea if you can use a lower concentration than you would for varroa.
I find it a little surprising that this swarm built up so well - from sizeable swarm to brood box + 2 supers in a not too brilliant summer - while suffering from acarine (which only started to show in August but has taken until now to diagnose). Is it something that tends to be there in the background and erupt when the colony's stressed, or what?
Where did the swarm come from? You may have a beekeeping neighbour with an acarine problem as well.
This paragraph pretty much coincides with what you have reported.
During the summer and fall, mite infested hives may appear strong and have many bees. However, they collapse in the late winter or early spring because of the shortened life-span of infested bees and too few young bees ready to replace them at this time. During the winter, a heavily infested colony may contain only a handful of bees and a queen, even though there is lots of honey. Acarine disease could persist in the colony for years causing little damage, but combined with other diseases or unfavorable conditions, the disease increases the mortality of colonies.
http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef012.asp
Maybe the wet weather this summer has been the tipping point.
Thanks, Jon, that makes sense. The swarm was probably from ferals - swarms lost by us (a few) and a previous beekeeper in the area (lots) over the years. AMM does seem to be a bit prone to acarine.
I was told that creosoting hives helps with acarine.
The bee inspector told me that he never sees it now (acarine, not creosote) since thymol has been used.
So thymol can be used against acarine, varroa and nosema. A miracle cure it seems!
Maybe baldness, atheletes foot, tennis elbow ......
Calum
14-11-2011, 12:53 PM
but it gets in your wax, and what is in your wax ends up in your honey...
Yes, years ago, when we last had a colony with acarine, we were recommended to put creosoted cardboard in our smoker and give them a blast of that. We used to creosote the outside of brood boxes and undersides of floors in those days, too. Unfortunately you can't get creosote nowadays, only something with a similar name that doesn't seem to be as good at preserving wood as the real thing.
The colony in the original post died out and was robbed out before we could take action. They even had some sealed brood on a couple of frames which I've been uncapping and checking for varroa (all clear - phew!). With hindsight I think close confinement (down to a brood box from b/b + super so we could start winter feeding early) and six weeks of solid rain provided the stress that tipped them over the edge.
masterbk
20-04-2012, 08:12 PM
Yes, years ago, when we last had a colony with acarine, we were recommended to put creosoted cardboard in our smoker and give them a blast of that. We used to creosote the outside of brood boxes and undersides of floors in those days, too. Unfortunately you can't get creosote nowadays, only something with a similar name that doesn't seem to be as good at preserving wood as the real thing.
The colony in the original post died out and was robbed out before we could take action. They even had some sealed brood on a couple of frames which I've been uncapping and checking for varroa (all clear - phew!). With hindsight I think close confinement (down to a brood box from b/b + super so we could start winter feeding early) and six weeks of solid rain provided the stress that tipped them over the edge.
There is no authorised treatment for acarine mite or the paralysis virus which is what is causing the crawling bee problem. However if you requeen from a different strain you will change the susceptibility to the virus and hopefully find that the new progeny do not suffer from it. If you inbreed you often fix the genes for susceptibility to the virus and if you cross breed your bees it tends not to be a problem.Keep records and don't breed from queens from any colonies that have signs of disease.
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