Insulate or Not ?

[marion.orca]

Being a new beekeeper, [and starting to feel the cold winds ] I have started thinking about the winter months that are looming ahead of us. So, my big question is " Do I insulate my hive ? " I have read some opinions that are positively against it - it will cause too much dampness leading to the build up of mould and disease - the bees have survived millions of years without us molly - coddling them, but I can't help but think of the cold temperatures these past few winters. I know there are products on the market which would suggest that if they are out there, they are neccessary. Do any of you insulate ? What do you use etc. etc.etc. Or are they just better left to their own ways providing plenty of food is available for them ? I'd be interested to hear both positive and negative thoughts on this. I would hate to lose them just because I have neglected to take the correct action.

[Calum]

Dont insulate... It keeps them longer in brood which increases varroa infestation more than anything else.
If they are a good strong colony sitting on plenty of stores that have been treated for varroa they'll be fine.

If they are no a strong colony they will use up their stores faster, and there is a risk of them starving through getting isolated on emptied frames... So I'd seriously consider it.. But we are talking about Scotland. So it is not that cold (damp is another issue but I'm hoping your bees are in a good dry airy spot where they get the sun). Mine tough it out on the edge of a wood through the -25°C days and nights here in S Bavaria.
I use a couple of newspapers laid flat on top of the frames as something to soak up the condensation I suppose that gives some insulation as well.
I also have had good experiences overwintering in polystyrene boxes, but these all have open floors to improve air circulation so they were never damp.

IMHO.

[Adam]

Sorry Marion but I am going to give a completely different answert to Calum as I do insulate - with an open mesh floor. Having written that, I am from the Southern tip of Scotland that you didn't know existed, so the weather is different.
This is what I do and the reasons for it;
http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/beekeepers-resource/winter-preparation.

This is where Harry Hill would shout "FIGHT!" :)

[marion.orca]

Don't apologise please ! I am looking for lots of different opinions and yours is very welcome. I haven't yet checked out the thread, but will do after this. I have heard of the southern tip of Scotland [ only briefly mind you ] but what I didn't know was that Norfolk, East Anglia was there. Just shows you learn something new every day. I do realise that climates differ from place to place and I imagine that Southern Scotland is slightly milder than the stormy west coast, though we tend to stay a tad warmer than inland being coastal. I recently had to unite 2 broods, which I did with newspaper, lavender and sugar syrup. so imagine that they would just chew through that as Callum had suggested. What a start for a beginner ! Still they were successful and I now have one big happy brood in a National. So plenty of ventilation with an open mesh floor. I know there were several hive losses last winter due to the cold and bitter temperatures, so I want to avoid that at all costs. I'll check out your link now and thanks for replying - Callum too.

[Jon]

I insulate at the top with 50mm of polystyrene.
Can't do any harm if you prevent excessive heat loss through the roof.
Some of mine are on mesh floors and others are on solid floors.
The big danger is damp rather than cold.

[Neils]

I've not insulated over the past two years but I'm going to try and winter some nucs so those I might well do.

[marion.orca]

What would you use to insulate ? Would you buy something that is available on the market or improvise with something else ? And would you insulate the top only or does anyone wrap the whole hive ? I'm also going to have to move the hive from its current location - it's just a wee bit too remote for the winter months. It's been an uphill struggle with the bees since I started, but I finally got permission from the Laird, who is now in full favour of it. Surprisingly I had had huge resistance from a crofter, grazing rights and all that. Today I had the good news that I had hoped for from a more understanding crofter who recognises the benefits and need for bees and in fact he can't wait to see the bees back on the croft again. [ his Father used to keep bees a long time ago] Would I wait until the hive has closed down for the winter months, or move them as soon as, whilst they are still foraging ? [ the new location will be 3.1 miles from the current location]

[Rosie]

When I was a beginners an old hand told me to overwinter with the crown board removed, the bottom as open as possible and no insulation. His philosophy was to keep the environment cold so the bees would not raise so much brood and would be less likely to be tied to the brood to cause isolation starvation. He also wanted to keep loads of fresh, cold air in the hive to prevent dampness. I think everyone agrees that dampness is dangerous but cold is harmless. He was a native bee enthusiast, as am I, and I think that is significant. If your bees belong to a warm climate you might have to insulate and put up with the winter laying, warm hives, varroa problems and high winter consumption.

My own method is to use wooden hives, leave mesh floors open and insulate the top of the crown board. This is to allow the underside of the crown board to remain warm to prevent condensation forming above the cluster. If the walls are cold and the crown board warm the condensation appears on the walls where it will do more good than harm.

I think the best way to avoid winter losses is to keep well-adapted bees, control varroa in August, provide sufficient stores and keep the hive airy and cool. It also helps to keep young queens but I always keep my queens until I lose them through bad swarm control or the colony supersedes them. I only ever destroy aggressive or exotic ones. My winter losses are typically around 10% and those are usually expected losses because the colony had struggled for some reason during the summer.

The last 2 winters have been the coldest I have experienced and yet my losses were no different to normal. In fact my highest and most exposed bees (at 1000ft above sea level on a windy mountainside) suffered no losses at all.

Rosie

[madasafish]

The only reason that polyhives do better than woodhives is because of their superior insulation...unless it's because bees prefer the material...

So the more insulation the better...

[Jon]

The only reason that polyhives do better than woodhives ..

Do they really do better? better in what sense? According to whom?

I have little experience with poly hives other than apideas and I can certainly see the value in the insulation when you are working with just a cupful of bees.
I keep native type bees in Thorne seconds Red Cedar nationals which cost about £18 each and mine seem to do well in those.

I haven't done a side by side trial comparing Poly with Red Cedar so I couldn't say whether one is better than the other.
If nothing else, I prefer wood as it is a more environmentally friendly product than polystyrene although I do use an 18" square piece of polystyrene for insulation above the crown board same as Rosie.

[Jimbo]

In my wooden hives I am similar to Jon and Rosie. I place insulation on the crown board but I also place a match stick at one corner of the board to lift it up a little. The reason is I want to keep the hives dry and any condensation from the bees respiration can escape. Warm damp air will rise up and escape and cold outside air will come in from below to give a chimney effect. The cold air will not kill the bees but the damp will. I keep my wooden hives on varroa floors and on wooden solid floors and noticed the varroa floor hives tend to be dryer. I also have poly hives and never noticed any dampness in them. The only difference I have noticed between a poly hive and a wooden hive is the brood nest may not be in the centre of the box in the poly hive that makes me think that the temperature in the poly hive must be more even than in a wooden hive. I also noticed the spring build up is slightly better in a poly hive. The main thing is to have a stong colony that has had a good varroa treatment and has plenty of stores going into the winter

[Neonach]

How do feral honey bees survive? In my view, what we provide should mimic as closely as possible the optimal natural condition. I've neither researched, read-up, or witnessed how feral bees actually nest, but I'm absolutely certain that nature hasn't been waiting millions of years for man to invent polystyrene to improve the survivability of a species. My belief is that wood is pretty much ideal, and thicker is better than thin, as it will tend to be a bit drier and a bit warmer in bad weather. The thicker it is, the less damp will penetrate, so less need for 'treatment' and thus the wood remains breathable, and thus less ventilation is needed to ensure the hive remains free from damp. I don't believe bees actually like a freezing cold driving rainy gale driving in through the entrance and up through the frames: you can have too much of a good thing. I have a lot of National parts - bases, broods and super boxes, roofs etc - that were the person who gave them to me bought in the late 1960s: they are the original National design (we forget that the current design is the Modified National!) and significantly thicker and heavier (better quality cedar?) and I change over to these for the winter. On the other hand we have to respect the 'survival of the fittest': no good comes from cosseting our bees: unless some are dying off from adverse conditions, the species will stagnate.

[gavin]

Feral colonies in Scotland are often in buildings and sometimes in hollow trees. Very few must be in the thin-walled wooden structures most of use.

I used to keep mine over-winter with the crownboard feed hole open and no top insulation. My winter losses have been higher than they should be, and I've seen isolation starvation where they had stores but were held in a tight cluster too long to reach them. So I listened to Jon and others and now insulate around (in small colonies) and above with polystyrene.

The other influence on that was listening to a few different commercial beekeepers who have large numbers of both polystyrene and wooden hives. They have seen dramatically different winter survival rates in some winters in the two types, which swung it for me. So the association bees are mostly in polystyrene, and my wooden hives will have polystyrene insulation added especially on top.

[Jon]

Irrespective of the hive type, they key thing is to have bees adapted to local conditions, the right size of cluster, and bees free from varroa and nosema.
Bees with nosema do not live as long, and a brood box full of bees in September can shrink down to a couple of frames by December and will have little chance of reaching spring in a viable state.
Half my colonies are on open mesh floors and half on solid floors and I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two.

[Adam]

Jimbo,
I wonder ...Haven't you defeated the object of putting insulation on the top and then making a gap around the edge?

Marion.
There are several things you can use as insulation. Several layers of cardboard would do something and I understand some use carpet. Cellotex or Kingspan insulation seems to be quite widely used. It has a foam inner and aluminium foil sides - used as underfloor insulation and in roofs. Alternatively expanded polystyrene would work which is just a weaker version of the expanded polystyrene that the polyhive makers use. Whatever you can find really.

Even if you scrunch up newspaper and put it in a super above the crown board it will conserve heat. I've done this around contact feeders on occasions and the difference is quite noticable.

[Adam]

Irrespective of the hive type, they key thing is to have bees adapted to local conditions, the right size of cluster, and bees free from varroa and nosema.
Bees with nosema do not live as long, and a brood box full of bees in September can shrink down to a couple of frames by December and will have little chance of reaching spring in a viable state.
Half my colonies are on open mesh floors and half on solid floors and I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two.

Jon, Have you noticed any difference with regard to dampness and mould growth inside the hives comparing solid and open floors?

[Jon]

I haven't really noticed a difference other than mould is more prevalent on the outer frames when you have a small cluster.
A solid floor should be ok as long as water which condenses can run out.

[marion.orca]

Thanks everybody for all the advice and tips. Well, I think all the feedback has swayed in favour of insulation above the crown board. and although I have experienced the bees chewing up newspaper, I think I will probably use that scrunched up as suggested, around the contact feeder. Out to the bees later today as the forecast for the rest of the week is pretty dismal AND I received my first ever copy of Scottish Beekeeper. I seem to remember some debate on the magazine when it came to " should it be in colour ", - why does it matter ? I've always read text in black and white, and surely thats the important part, nor pretty pictures. I enjoyed it and look forward to the next one.

[Calum]

The various insulation or lack thereof methods just go to show what a good strong colony will put up with (regardless of which is really better).
I found myself nodding to everything Rosie wrote.

The question should really be what does a weak colony have the best chance on.

[tonybloke]

Do they really do better? better in what sense? According to whom?


Murray @ Denrosa has said that his poly hives do much better than his wooden hives, about 20lb of honey better IIRC

[Jon]

Interesting. I was only thinking of overwintering, as opposed to honey production. I read Murray's comments in the thread on beekeepingforum. I wonder is that 20lb increase with his native colonies, the new zealand carnica imports or both.

[Calum]

if he changed from AAM to carnica I'd bet on the Carnica being the bigger factor.
During nectar flow I dont think the bees are all that bothered about what sort of box they are in, how prolific they are is probably a bigger factor.
I'd expect bees in a better insulated box to need less winter feed though.

[Rosie]

I'd expect bees in a better insulated box to need less winter feed though.

People often make that comment but it's not what I would expect. In my experience the amount of food they eat seems to be dependent on how much brood they rear during the winter and warm hives encourage more brood rearing. It's one of the things I dislike about too much insulation because it gives varroa too much opportunity to survive the winter - especially if oxalic acid is the main varroa treatment of the year.

Rosie

[Jon]

I agree. I am seeing a much smaller than usual mite drop and I suspect it may be related to that exceptionally cold winter we had where there would have been a long broodless period. Combine that with well timed Oxalic acid treatment and the mites are in trouble. Several other beekeepers I know have also noted a very small mite drop this year so I don't think it is just my colonies.

[Adam]

Thanks everybody for all the advice and tips. Well, I think all the feedback has swayed in favour of insulation above the crown board. and although I have experienced the bees chewing up newspaper, I think I will probably use that scrunched up as suggested, around the contact feeder.

Am I reading this right; how will the bees get access to the newspaper? Are you putting the feeder straight on the top bars or a queen excluder?

[Adam]

Jon, Rosie,
Maybe the technique should be to ventillate the hive when there's cold weather due. This will stop or reduce brood rearing. After that - say 3 weeks - Oxalic Acid should be applied. A few days later the insulation should be put back on after the varroa have been zapped. The better insulation will allow for brood rearing again and a strong spring build-up.

The cold weather here last year was in the last week of November and the first week of December. I lumbered out of the house full of Turkey between Christmas and New Year and administered Oxalic Acid - so just about 3 weeks later which was spot on - very little sealed brood I would expect.

I have 1 polyhive at the moment. I'll have to see how it fares over the winter and spring build-up.

[The Drone Ranger]

Irrespective of the hive type, they key thing is to have bees adapted to local conditions, the right size of cluster, and bees free from varroa and nosema.
Bees with nosema do not live as long, and a brood box full of bees in September can shrink down to a couple of frames by December and will have little chance of reaching spring in a viable state.
Half my colonies are on open mesh floors and half on solid floors and I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two.

Edward P. Jeffree D. SC.
wrote a paper in 1959 with the catchy title
"The Size of Honey-Bee Colonies Throughout the Year and the Best Size to Overwinter"

I wouldn't like to try and condense the information he imparted because the paper needs to be read to get a full understanding of his research.

but he found that "a healthy colony with a late Autumn size of 11,000 bees would lose 18% of its bees by the Spring, while colonies with Autumn strengths of 7,000 and 35,000 bees would lose 36% and 44% respectively.
Similarly, colonies with Nosema disease having late Autumn strengths of 7,000, 14,000 and 35,000 bees would suffer winter losses of 57%, 33% and 51%."

He continues
"There is a further point to notice in considering these figures .It must be remembered that the corresponding sizes would be considerably larger if measured in early Autumn instead of in November, as there is appreciable reduction in colony strengths in the Autumn months."

So one of the conclusions here is that about 11,000 healthy bees in November is the best size for overwintering the explanation of why needs the full paper to be read and my typing finger couldn't cope with that :)

The Moir library might have a copy

[Jon]

Interesting stuff. i didn't know there was research on ideal cluster size. Couldn't find the paper on Google scholar.
11,000 bees would be about a 4-5 frame cluster I reckon.
I would have thought a wee bit bigger was ideal but that number of bees should overwinter fine.
35,000 is a brood box packed tight to the gills and I don't usually see that in November with my bees.
That number would take a lot of stores to overwinter and I reckon 30lbs is good enough for mine.

[Adam]

Interesting DR. From the peak numbers in the hive in summer, bees automatically reduce their head-count - they don't have to as they could sustain higher numbers on the assumption that they have stores and forage is not too much of a problem - there is a reason for the reduction - to get to an optimum size. I wonder if the cluster size is similar in Langtstroths compared to the smaller UK hives or if the heat-retention capabilities of the hive is used by the bees as a basis for cluster size - they can sense the hive qualities and their size reflects this. Research work for someone if not already done!

A Google search indicates he also wrote this "WINTER BROOD AND POLLEN IN HONEYBEE COLONIES
by EdWard P. JEFFREE, B. Sc.
(Bee Research Department, North of Scotland College of Agriculture, Marlschal College, Aberdeen.)"

Jon a 4 - 5 frame cluster and 6 -7 frames of stores is about what you get in a fully loaded National going into winter.

Going off-thread a little, does anyone know why the BS hive size was devised as it is - why did the Brits decide that they should have The Smallest Hive In The World when the bees were pretty much the same as in neighbouring European countries?

[Jon]

Why did the Brits decide that they should have The Smallest Hive In The World when the bees were pretty much the same as in neighbouring European countries?

I thinks nationals are about the right size for my colonies.
On the odd occasion I get a colony which needs the second brood box.
I think the people who think the single brood box is too small are keeping Buckfast or Carnica or some prolific local strain, all of which will need a lot more space.

Adam - what size of winter cluster do you get on average? I would say 5-6 frames in November is about average for me although I always get the odd one on 8 or 9.

[marion.orca]

My thinking is that I will put the crown board on minus the porter bee escapes, place a contact feeder over one of the holes and then surround the feeder with scrunched up newspaper. Not only would the newspaper provide a wee bit of insulation for the brood box, but also the feeder too. So the bees themselves would actually not come into contact with the newspaper at all. Would that not work ?

[Trog]

That will work perfectly. You'll probably need an eke, though I do have one lovely old roof which has room for the feeder underneath without an eke. As all roofs are different, I usually check very carefully that the roof has actually gone down properly and is contact with the eke/crownboard. If it's sitting up on the feeder mice could get in through the gap.

[Adam]

Jon wrote: -Adam - what size of winter cluster do you get on average? I would say 5-6 frames in November is about average for me.


Looking at last years records* my last general inspection was 2 October and most hives had 5 - 6 frames of brood. On 29 March this year which was the first inspection I had 3 - 5 frames of brood. The full-sized hives with just 3 frames generally failed to thrive and either tried to replace their queens in April or their queens remained in the hive but stopped laying so they could not then produce a new queen. My suspicion is Nosema of one flavour or the other.

It's noticable the Carni colony grew from 5 to 8 frames of brood by mid April (2 weeks) which is a rapid expansion. She did, of course, attempt to swarm this summer despite having 2 brood chambers to play in.

The only 14 x 12 colony I had grew to 8 well filled frames - which is quite a large colony - equivalent to 11 - 12 'normal' frames but failed to get much honey. Now if that colony had been in a National brood chamber it would have filled the brood chamber with brood and pushed the honey upstairs perhaps? Maybe an example of the hive being too big for the colony to get any return?

With the under-supering I do in the autumn, I did not need to feed the full sized hives in the spring as they had decent stores so I kept the insulation on into the middle of April I recall to encourage a fast build-up.

*Its really handy to keep old records!