Best way to requeen nasty colony

[kevboab]

Planning to get suited and booted on a queen searching mission to give HM the chop. Whats the best way to requeen this lot afterwards ? Currently on double brood.

[gavin]

Nucleus method?

[kevboab]

Was thinking about doing that. Ive got a nuc on the go that would do the job. How long after culling would you leave queenless Gavin and would you unite using newspaper or just insert frames into centre of existing brood.

[gavin]

A nucleus itself isn't quite the same as a nucleus from the receiving colony split off for the purposes of queen introduction. If you have a strong, feisty colony I wouldn't put a strange nucleus into the middle of it.

A month or so ago I had a problem colony, strong, aggressive, and queenless, and a nuc from a different colony. The strong colony had a super over a queen excluder so I united over newspaper above the super and another queen excluder, thinking that would give them a gentle introduction to the new colony. All went well and a week later I reshuffled the colony to put the new queen and her frames down into the brood box.

I'd remove your old queen and leave them queenless, destroying all queen cells after a week. Then try something similar to the above.

[Jon]

With a big colony, nasty or otherwise, you could requeen in two stages based on an artificial swarm.

Move the big colony a few feet to the side.
Put a new floor and brood box on the old site.
Put in a frame of brood all stages and 10 more frames, brood from any colony will do.
This is to keep the returning flyers happy.
With a quiet colony I would immediately remove the queen.
With a nasty colony I would wait 12-24 hours until most of the flyers had returned before finding and removing the queen.
Check for queen cells and remove any present.
Introduce the new queen in a slow release introduction cage to the part with the brood and non flying bees.
Check after a couple of days that she is out of the cage but don't go looking for her as you might provoke the bees to ball her as she is new.
After a week check for eggs/larvae and then reunite via newspaper after removing all queen cells in the other part, or you could just move the part with the flying bees away and they will return and drift into the requeened part.

It is far easier to requeen young bees.

If requeening with a nuc, combine with the young bees and brood via newspaper and then combine again after a week.
You can loose the queen if the queenright part is far smaller than the queenless part.

I have requeened the same was as Gavin describes above as well.

[kevboab]

Many thanks guys. Excellent advice as usual.

[Adam]

I'd do as Jon suggests. (I'm a wuss and don't like agressive bees!). For slow introduction of a queen, I was told to make the candy plug like a brick. However I think the best method is to keep the plastic tab in place for a couple of days and then break off the tab and allow the remaining candy to be eaten through some hours after the hive has been put back together.

[Jon]

Hi Adam. That's what I do. I wait 24 hours and check the cage. If the bees are calm I open the tab. If not, I wait another 24 hours and check again. The double entrance/exit cages seem to be good as the bees get in with the queen before the queen can get out to the colony.

710 711

PS. I am also a wuss.

[The Drone Ranger]

On another thread elsewhere in the Galaxy (star wars)
Jon pointed to some IBRA page anyway also on there was an article about direct queen introduction using nothing but a bit of smoke
The jist of it being that after a week or two queenless and no queen cells then the percentages were no worse for just smoking them and putting the queen in than they were for fiddling around with cages etc.
Now I'm a fiddler mostly, though I have just soaked and poked a virgin down the back of the broodbox at night on occasions
More often than that I have soaked and poked one into a mini nuc, again at night
I have never just shoved a mated queen into a queenless hive with only a bit of smoke to keep the bees busy
Are we making things harder than they need to be ?

[Jon]

Adam has introduced several queens like that this year. I tried it on one which was due to be culled and it worked.
It seems counter-intuitive but does seem to work.
With a nasty colony you still have to find the problem queen and get shot of her before smoking in the usurper.

[Rosie]

I hope I don't repeat anything here but I have not read the whole thread. When I introduce a queen I leave her in the cage in the hive for 3 days and then release her onto a horizontal comb on top of the frames and watch the reaction of the workers. If they seem to accept her I just lower the comb back into the hive. If they try to ball her I stick her back in the cage for another day. Introducing the queen to a nuc first helps even more. I never rely on the fondant method now as it's too hit and miss for my liking and has caused the loss of some good queens.

When I can't find the old queen or can't face searching a killer colony I just insert a protected queen cell. They can't tear down the cell and when the virgin eventually emerges they seem to treat her like a supersedure queen and the old one gets the chop. Presumably they allow the virgin to sort her out. It works almost every time but I have not deliberately counted the success rate.

The same technique usually works with a colony with laying workers too and I have no doubt that it is infinitely better than the book method of dumping your bees on the ground. I can't imagine how that idea ever caught on.

[Black Comb]

I tried the protected queen cell method on a couple of snotty colonies this season but both failed.
In the past I have used a manley cage. The benefit of this is that they eat the first plug and can access and feed the queen through the small Qe, whilst I leave the large plug sealed over with tape for a few days to see how they are reacting to her. When things look calm I take off the tape and they eat their way through the large plug and realease her.

[mbc]

My experience of using protected cells in queenright colonies, or supercedure requeening as its known in the antipodes, has not been particularly successful either. Shame, as its dead quick.

[Adam]

Jon is correct - I've introduced a dozen or so queens this year simply using smoke into a colony that has been queenless for 4 days or more. (Removing the queencells first of course). 100% success. :)
The queens have been my own so haven't traveled and thus been in a good laying condition which I am sure helps.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... In the past I have used a manley cage. ...
What does a manley cage look like, BC?
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Jon is correct - I've introduced a dozen or so queens this year simply using smoke into a colony that has been queenless for 4 days or more. (Removing the queencells first of course). 100% success. :)
The queens have been my own so haven't traveled and thus been in a good laying condition which I am sure helps.

That's brilliant Adam
The queen condition is an important tip which I will bear in mind
I have used the Snelgove method wetting the queen never just smoke
I must have a go next year :)

[The Drone Ranger]

If anyone is interested here's a link to Snelgrove's Queen Introduction book
It's quite a big .pdf
Lot of interesting stuff in there on direct introduction
Time from mating till lay etc
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4kmkBxg4pS2RTF0Uk5JOC1kYWs/edit?usp=sharing
Takes two or three min to download

[Black Comb]

What does a manley cage look like, BC?
Kitta

If you have Honey Farming by Manley a drawing is on page 202.
Bickerstaffes sell them. If you scroll down the page there is a photo and some blurb.

http://bickerstaffs-queens.blogspot.co.uk

[Black Comb]

The other thing I've had with introductions is the queen hiding.
It's happened a few times with black queens introduced to cordovan workers.
Last time I introduced by cage and then about 10 days later went in and no sign of queen or eggs or brood.
I had a top feeder on which was empty and as I took it off I saw the queen in the "feeding" part of the feeder. I picker he up, placed her on the top bars, gently smoked around her and crossed my fingers.
She is now laying well.