Queens-to clip or not to clip

[GRIZZLY]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of clipping queens?.Is this just a fashion or fad?. :confused:

[gavin]

Jon will be along soon to tell you why it is a good idea. I'm almost convinced even though I've never clipped a queen yet.

[Neils]

I'm firmly in the no clip camp. First and foremost is that I don't like damaging my queen, I don't see why they should pay the price for my failings and I very much see my colonies swarming as a failing on my part.

While I get all the reasons to do it I don't like the "campaigning" that goes with it, from some quarters, that basically says you're an irresponsible beekeeper if you don't clip your queens.

If I go to more colonies than I have then maybe I have to take a more pragmatic approach than I do currently. But I think for the average hobby beekeeper queen clipping simply isn't necessary.

[gavin]

My main reason for not doing it has been uncertainty handling queens. In the last couple of years though I've started just picking her up. On Friday evening I grabbed a queen by both wings, she curled her abdomen down and struggled so I just dabbed paint on her thorax as she was. After a couple of minutes when I placed her back on the frame she just continued looking for empty cells. I don't think that a queen would even notice that a third of a wing had been cut off. The dod of paint on the back is probably a greater imposition.

I'm surprised that people are campaigning and implying irresponsibility. Beekeepers can be a strange lot.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I have some hives at the croft and some hives with a friend in Aberdeen. I regularly get advice from two people - the one is for clipping, saying you haven't lost half a hive and you can now make increase from that hive; the other is against it saying it will take a long time before the hive has recovered from the loss of a queen.

At the croft my mentor (one of the two people) clipped one of my queens' wings - and I've just discovered that she's gone. I began to suspect it last week. I now have a full hive rather than half a hive - but the new queen still needs to emerge and to get mated, so it will take about a month or more before she can start laying and even longer before those bees are adults. How does that delay compare with the loss of half a hive (assuming I didn't spot and catch the swarm)? I couldn't make increase either because the three emergency swarm cells were so close together that all I could do was to destroy two of them and leave one.

In Aberdeen I myself clipped the queen's wings (and my hands were shaking with anxiety). I reasoned that I'm not there to keep regular checks on the hive and I thought risking creating a swarm in a suburb is not very friendly. Fortunately - she is still there and I've just made an artificial swarm from her hive so I don't think I'll lose her.

Like Nellie, I don't want to hurt my queens and I don't think I'll easily do it again at the croft - but I may do so in Aberdeen if I continue to keep a couple of hives with my friend.

[Beejud]

My personal preference is to clip my queens. Initially, this was because as a beginner a few years ago my mentor, who was hugely experienced with a large number of colonies advised me to. Like Nellie though I do feel it a failure on my part as a beekeeper if my bees swarm. I seem to have particularly swarmy bees and even though with more experience I can read the colony and what is happening so much better now, they still, despite my best efforts with AS etc are sometimes determined to swarm no matter what. This year has been a perfect example when even the nucleus's have been trying to swarm. This way I don't lose my field bees. I think however it should be down to personal preference. What is right for me clearly isn't necessarily going to be right for someone else and that is fine by me. My method for clipping is to use the little press on cage as I don't like to pick up the queen in case I damage her by handling her. I also only clip queens in the spring so any queens born this year will not be clipped until next year. It works for me and my bees ( usually)!

[Trog]

I don't and won't clip queens. They are not easily replaced here. I might, just might, start marking them, not because I can't spot a queen in the hive but so that it's easier to spot quickly if a caught swarm is one of mine, rather than someone else's or ferals. They'll not be marked in a standard colour, though!

[Neils]

I'm surprised that people are campaigning and implying irresponsibility. Beekeepers can be a strange lot.
Oh I've been told on forums and in person that my not clipping queens is irresponsible, swarms in chimneys blah blah blah. Not by people who's opinion I greatly value so I don't pay a huge amount of attention.

For clarity I don't believe that the actual wing clipping itself "hurts" the queen in any meaningful way, but I am wary of causing additional accidental damage and where I've expressed an opinion that clipping is cruel it is in reference to basically sacrificing the queen as a result of my inattentive inspections. I accept the trade off for not clipping is basically religiously inspecting weekly, especially during the swarming season.

[Jon]

I clipped queens for the first time this year. I clip them using a plunger cage and have probably done about 15. When the queen walks backwards the wings sticks out between the mesh and you just take off the tip of the wing. You never have to touch her. As someone said above, there is more chance of a problem with marking as you can get paint on the antennae or have the queen balled if the bees do not like the smell of the paint.

I had a swarm 10 days ago and the clipped queen had made her way back inside when I looked two hours later. This happens quite a lot. You also find the queen on the ground in front of the hive with a little knot of bees and can put her back in.

I have not lost a clipped queen yet, but if I did I would immediately requeen with a spare queen or would split the colony up to make nucs with spare queens or I would combine it with a neighbouring colony, depending upon the time of year and what I wanted to do.

I used to argue against clipping but you can relax about not losing half the bees as long as you do your checks at least once a fortnight. My beekeeping completely changed when I realised that swarming was not inevitable and you can pretty much control it if you are doing proper checks. Last year I didn't clip and I didn't lose any swarms, but I reckon I was pushing my luck. With valuable queens I am careful about weekly checks.
If you clip you could lose a valuable queen but if you don't clip you could lose the same queen along with 20,000 of her progeny.

[Beejud]

Jon

I have never tried the plunger cage you referred to but it sounds from your description as though it might be an easier/ safer method for clipping the queen. At the risk of sounding a complete dummy, do you have to pick the queen up to put her in it. I have always been nervous about handling the queen in case I damage her or cause the bees to reject her. I suppose if you tried to get her to run into the cage off the frame you may end up with a few "extras". With my present method I have to be very patient and wait for the right moment when she reverses and a wing tip appears and you are constantly brushing off the anxious attendants so it is not a task I undertake lightly or if in a hurry. Always keen to learn something new or better.

As I read this for spelling errors it occurs to me that some may question my thought process " not wanting to cause the bees to reject her" then I daub paint on her and cut part of her wing off! Bit of a contradiction there! Doh!

[Jon]

You find you queen then lay the frame down flat on top of the box when she is near the middle of it. Put the open tube in front of her and shepherd her in with your fingers, then lock her in with the plunger. if a couple of bees go in with her, no odds. Use the plunger to hold her still when she puts a wing up through the mesh. It is actually not that complicated. Sometimes the queen will put a wing up immediately and you can clip, mark and have her back on her frame in 2 minutes but the odd one acts the eejit and takes 10 minutes before sticking a wing up. I have never seen one stick a leg out at the same time as the wing so no chance of damaging it.

[Adam]

I clip and mark. I pick up in disposable gloves (cheap thin washing up gloves also work for me). I have - so far-never damaged a queen. I leave a queen for a few weeks before I mark and/or clip her and make sure that both are done before she leaves a mini-nuc. If she is wriggly and distressed I will leave for later or clip and then let her go and mark her later on.

Iv'e had a couple of swarms this year where the queen was clipped and got her each time. I tell a lie, three. Each time was when I had missed an inspection due to time pressures or I was away. One swarm was 1/2 hour before we had 30 people arrive for our eldest sons 18 birthrday party. Wife stressed - "OMG they'll be here soon and we're not ready!" I slipped out, veil on, picked her up from outside the hive, dropped some bees that were hanging on the hive into a mini-nuc and she was caught. Job done in 5 - 6 minutes. Bees came back. Wife didn't even know. Result.

Last week I collected a swarm from nearby that went inside a chimney. I suspect I know the 'keeper who let them go. If the queen had been clipped it would have saved me a great deal of time!

Yesterday I had another call about a swarm and managed to get someone else to collect it and donate it to a new beekeeper.. It was near my out apiary but I was comforted in the fact that it was not mine.

[Adam]

Another technique for marking I have tried recently a couple of times is simply to hold the queen on the comb with thumb and forefinger of my left hand. There is a natural gap between them when you press down (gently) so the chances of squashing are minimal. It's really quick. Hold. Dab with paint. Let go. Less than 10 seconds. The paint doesn't get licked off it seems, so no need to hold for a while 'till it dries.

[Jon]

Last week I collected a swarm from nearby that went inside a chimney. I suspect I know the 'keeper who let them go. If the queen had been clipped it would have saved me a great deal of time!


Oh I've been told on forums and in person that my not clipping queens is irresponsible, swarms in chimneys blah blah blah. .


Mind your language Adam. there is no need for the C word on this forum!

[Adam]

Here's a photo of a clipped queen NOT swarming. Her daughters did but they came back of course. I could see the queen being pushed out but she didn't go and walked back in again.

(Probably not dark enough for some).718

[Jon]

(Probably not dark enough for some).718

yep,the black bee police would be taking that one down a dark alley.

The other thing about clipping is that it saves you time as you can inspect every 2 weeks instead of every week.
I checked one today after 16 days and found several sealed queen cells - only just sealed by the look of them. I thought the queen might have gone as I was away at the weekend but she was on the next frame. I did an artificial swarm and left the queen with the flying bees and the supers on the original site and immediately introduced a mated queen in a cage to the other part from one of my apideas. I also saved a frame with a particularly nice queen cell in the middle and put it in a 2 frame nuc with an extra shake or two of bees. I was planning to graft from this queen but haven't got round to it yet. She is a crafty bugger - flew out of a 2 frame mating nuc and into a queenless colony with queen cells which she took over last summer.

Clipping + spare queens is the way to go.
I have to admit it was Adam and Roger Patterson with their relentless mantra about the benefits of clipping who convinced me - along with my mate Tim who is a second year beekeeper but clips everything and never stops talking about bees in chimneys. He is on the swarm collector list and has had loads of calls to bees in chimneys in the greater Belfast area, the most recent one the day before yesterday.

[Mellifera Crofter]

...and I've just discovered that she's gone.

No - I found her again on Wednesday. She was hiding in the supers, and being very busy there as well.
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

I don't clip because at the end of the day its the bees that decide to swarm not the queen
If your queen is lost in the grass they will still have the swarming urge and first opportunity or hatched virgin off they will go
A couple of bait hives can work wonders if you miss something.

[Rosie]

Very few of us clip in my neck of the woods - especially our best queens. We think that if a swarm leaves with a clipped queen the queen dies and the bees return. If she's not clipped they take off to be collected by another beekeeper and the genetics live on and a new colony is born. If your motivaton is the bees rather than the crop it makes more sense not to clip. In a urban environment the balance might switch and clipping might be better to avoid frightening the neigbours.

Rosie

[EmsE]

I haven't clipped my queens before but am seriously considering it for next year. If the bees try to swarm with a clipped queen, she has a chance of crawling back to the hive (hopefully the right one) therefore allowing me to artificially swarm them (One of my hives swarmed 7 days after the previous inspection where there had been no sign of queen cells, not even a play cup).

What are the chances a swarm has of establishing itself as a successful feral colony? First they have to find a suitable place to call home (a chimney is fine until winter). Secondly are they able to tolerate varroa & other diseases without the bee keeper? If they can overcome these 2 then I'd be all for helping the feral numbers but after 'contributing' 2 swarms to them this year I feel guilty that it's not in their best interests from a survival point of view, and am praying that they didn't venture to any residential areas.