Swarming Advice

[Hoomin_erra]

Just checked the 2 hives i have.
Here is the history:
Both hives pulled through the Cabrach Winter fine, albeit very reduced. Now, this may be pertly my fault because i replaced all the old frames that i had received with the bees when i got them with foundation during that 2 week warm spell we had back in march, which meant that both hives were on 2 drawn frames and 9 foundation. They have been very reluctant to draw out the foundation, so as per supplied advice, i removed the super, and fed. Just as well, because the weather here was awful for about 3 weeks, and they pretty much finished everything they had in stores.

Today:
Hive 1:
Seems Ok, eggs, stores, and just starting to draw out the foundation.

Hive 2:
Brood all over 2 frames. and one side of a 3rd that they have just drawn out. But i have found 1 charged QC, and 7 others with just eggs. Queens are new from last year, and they seem to be laying well. Standing at the back, the brood is against the left side of the box.

Bearing in mind the size of the brood nest, do i AS??

[Jon]

Colonies that size would be better in 5 frame nucs rather than full boxes with supers on.
They would build up much better with less space to heat. I would block off any unused space with a dummy board until the colony grows to a respectable size.
The rule of thumb for supers is to put the first one on when you have eight of the eleven frames well covered with brood.
Bees will not draw out foundation in poor weather or periods of low nectar income.
Something must be holding these colonies back as you should have most frames covered in brood at this stage.
Your queen cell could be an attempt at supersedure as a poor queen may be the cause of the slow build up.
Either remove the cell or assume it is a supersedure and leave it but splitting a colony this size would be unwise.

Why did you replace all the old frames?

[Hoomin_erra]

Replaced the old frames because they were very manky, and not in the best condition.

In hindsight, it was stupid. But then you know what they say about hindsight.

In regards to supercedure, i thought 1 cell meant supercedure, and lots meant swarming. And could it be that due to the fact that they haven't drawn out the foundation, the queen is saying there isn't enough space. There is plenty of pollen coming in, the gorse is in full bloom, and the bees are coming in luminous. Had a LOT of really crappy weather here, which i think has impacted their expansion. It's either been raining or howling a gale.

[Jon]

We have had the same weather here - dire, cold and windy, maximums of 12c-13c for 3 weeks but most of my ten colonies are on 8-10 frames of brood and my bees rarely make more brood than that even in good weather.
Old black comb is fine as long as you fumigate it it with 80% acetic acid and you are sure you do not have AFB.
Are you in a varroa area? Something is holding back colony progress.

Eggs in queen cups mean nothing as the bees usually remove them. A single charged queen cell is often a supersedure attempt.

[Hoomin_erra]

Ok, i'll stick a dummyboard in, and keep an eye on the QC's.
i'll keep feeding in the hopes that will make them draw out the comb.

Varroa, according to the "map", yes i am, but i have yet to see a mite, and i haven't spotted any oddities on the bees themselves.

My only concern with a spuercedure it that i am very remote, and as far as i know, there are no other beekeepers with miles of me. And so far i have noticed no drones in either hive. If they do supercede, i might very well end up with a virgin queen with no drones to mate with.

[gavin]

I did wonder about your drone population. In that case a supercedure is safer as the old queen will carry on - so if you think that might be what they are doing, encourage it.

[Adam]

Without knowing the area, Gavin, what would you expect to see as far as bee numbers are concerned in these two hives?

From a definite varroa area, it is rare to see any live varroa apart from drone uncapping - which can't be done in this case! However as soon as you see damaged wings and walking bees, the infestation is very high in my experience.

As Jon writes, I would reduce the size of the hive with a small colony.

One colony I have only just got through the winter - in a 16 frame National with OMF. They did start to build-up when I put them in a 5 frame nuc box in the spring. However I combined them with a bigger agressive colony soon after. The hive is running on double brood with about 15 frames of brood now so I think that the colony could not build up in the barn of a hive I gave them - there was nothing wrong with the queen or their general health.

[Jon]

I have had colonies dwindle in the spring to the point where I can fit them in an apidea!
I find the queen usually comes good if she is added to a few frames of bees and brood and put in a nuc.
A small colony in a huge space just doesn't work and I imagine it is a tad colder in Cabrach than Norfolk which is practically on the equator.

[Hoomin_erra]

If Norfolk is the equator, i'm probably skirting the icepack. Grampians at 1300 foot, and so far max temp has been about 15 degrees this year. Bonuses are loads of Gorse, heather, and in about a month, sheep fields covered in clover.

But i've cut them back to 6 frames, and am feeding like crazy. they are starting to draw out the foundation. So as they draw out the last frame, i'll add one. Yes i know it means not much chance of honey, but i'd rather have bees after this winter, than honey now.

[gavin]

This puts me in mind of a song. What a man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqsrMgceCs

I had three colonies come through the winter severely crippled, and my bees are literally metres above sea level. About 7m I think. Not high enough if the ice sheets melt.

All three have polystyrene dummies and polystyrene above their heads. One is picking up now and will be at full strength in the late summer. One is hanging on, just. And one died out a few weeks ago. Contrast that with their neighbours, two of which have boomed into two broodboxes, been split, and are making Q cells again.

So don't be disheartened HE, with luck and good beekeeping, next year will be better.

G.

[Troutnabout]

I posted on another thread that I had my 1st swarm on the 1st of June. It was big and I managed to capture it and get it into a National brood chamber. I went to check it on Sunday evening about 6pm. I fed it some syrup and checked my other two colonies. #1 is strong and I’m sure that’s where the swarm came from. #2 is a bit behind and I gave it some syrup. I then spotted another small swarm a foot or so long the branch from where the 1st swarm landed. I managed to get this 2nd swarm into a nuc and fed it.

My question was going to be “What do I do now” the nuc swarm is small, barely enough bees to cover 2 national brood bars. BUT, I have been Googling tonight and now I am worried that I might have scooped up a queen out being mated.

The 1st swarm is now carrying in pollen and the 2nd swarm is still in the nuc box.

[Hoomin_erra]

No disheartenedness here, just a bit of frustration. Was hoping to get them next to some OSR, I figured all that pollen and nectar would have seen them right, but i couldn't guarantee that i would have the kit to spin it out of the supers. :(

And the wains inhale honey when i pull it off. Looks like they will have to do with inferior shop bought stuff this year.

[gavin]

Your season will be a late one. If there is spring-sown rape then that will give your colonies a real boost, maybe sufficient to get you a heather crop? Even without an extractor you could scrape and strain (in the case of heather, scrape and squeeze through netting).

That Varroa map is mostly guesswork, so if you go through a season without finding mites, let Kate know.

[Hoomin_erra]

Well the issue is now over. Just checked the hive.

Loads of Larvae in different stages, but guess what i can't find..that's right, eggs, or her maj!!

Looks like she's legged it. On the up side, i have 3 frames of brood, 2 capped QC's, and saw the first few drones. I might move this colony next to the spring sown OSR to aid in it's recovery.

Other one is doing great, now up to 4 frames of brood, and they are drawing the last of the 6 foundation frames. I'll add 2 more frames this weekend. If they keep going, i might get a nice clover harvest out of them yet.

[gavin]

Oops, it wasn't supercedure after all?!

Troutnabout, sounds very like your small swarm was a cast rather than a mating flight. If you are worried that you have now captured the virgin from the stay-at-home part of your swarmed colony, no need. The small nuc will encourage any virgin within to get on with it (maybe a fortnight) and by then you should be able to judge whether your main split is queen-right or not. Even if it isn't showing eggs by then, queen-right bees should be relatively happy and perhaps with an area prepared for laying.

[Jon]

Hoomin-erra
Are there noticeably less bees or could it be that just the queen has disappeared?
Swarming with just a couple of frames of brood would be highly unusual.

Gavin.
re mating flights with accompanied virgins, these definitely happen.
I had two apideas abscond last week and in each case I found the cluster of bees and returned it to the apidea. One was just a few feet away but the other was about 50 feet away from its apidea.
Both these queens were laying within 3 days so it is fairly clear they were on a mating flight accompanied by all the bees in the apidea.

I have seen similar happen in a 5 frame nuc with the virgin flying with about two thirds of the bees leaving a queenless rump behind.
This happened a couple of years ago and when I rejoined the swarm part with the queenless part of the nuc she was laying a couple of days later.

[Adam]

I've lost 2 mini-nucs. Both were as empty as an empty thing. Lord knows where the bees went.
I do try to keep some brood in a mini-nuc if I can as this SHOULD help deter them from absconding.

Norfolk is VERY dry; Hardly rained for months. Good when I get in my mankini and strut about in the garden but the farmers are just busy dragging irrigation pipes around desperately trying to water their crops. We now have the 'June Gap' until flowers appear later. Lots of bees bouncing about looking for food and water (OSR finished a while ago).

With suspected supercedure.... you never know if it's really supercedure or a swarm. A clipped queen will fall to the floor if they try to swarm and you get your bees back. If proper supercedure, clipping is not a problem either as they will push her out when they want to in any case.

[Jon]

I've lost 2 mini-nucs. Both were as empty as an empty thing.

Have a good look around for the clusters. I managed to find both of mine within 15 minutes - one on a damson tree and the other in a hawthorn bush at the bottom of the allotment.
With the second one, I had checked the apidea for eggs in the morning and seen the queen. A couple of hours later it was empty but the cluster was only a few feet away.
I am not sure how long they hang about though.
I suspect that this is due to the queen falling short on the way back from mating and the bees then cluster around her.
I find the best way is to look for a little swirl of bees rather than the cluster itself which is the tell-tale sign. There will always be a couple of dozen bees in the air around the cluster.
I found another queen running around on the ground a couple of feet in front of her apidea and I put her in. This one had eggs today. There must be a fine line between success and failure with queens tiring and falling short of the apidea.

Adam and friends in beekeeping gear (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.mycostumes.co.uk/images/borat-mankini-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.mycostumes.co.uk/borat-mankini-thong-fancy-dress/&usg=__hIpwagNKrcbGlYKuOwdckFm4D6A=&h=300&w=431&sz=54&hl=en&start=6&sig2=Pzr7JqjdlEnWY6k1Xw_Gzw&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=YudLk9Nq3uAl_M:&tbnh=88&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dborat%2Bmankini%2Bbee%26hl%3Den%26sa% 3DG%26biw%3D1211%26bih%3D546%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disc h&ei=_vfwTcP5FIrE8QO-8MHQAw).

[gavin]

At least you have some nice friends Adam!

I too have just discovered an emptier than empty thing. Couldn't see the abscondees but I haven't visited for 6 days. I *was* particularly pleased to see one of the four with comb in the right place and a newly laying queen. I'll stick that one on the ESBA blog later.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/empty%20thing.jpg

[Jon]

What way were your starter strips Could they have fallen to the floor before the bees got going drawing wax? You need to melt a fair bit of wax around them to hold them in place. I prefer a wee bit of brace comb myself.
You could break off those two combs and attach them straight with plenty of melted wax. theone is the feeder looks good to be recycled as well.
That cross combing could get you a lifetime pass to biobees.com Maybe you are a natural at top bar or warre beekeeping!

Nice shiny apidea. Won't stay that way for long.

[gavin]

LOL!! Anyway, I'll have nothing said against Warre folk. I've invited one to set up home in the association apiary next year, once I have queens on tap and can supply one I like.

Spot on with the starter strip detective work. I dribbled a very small puddle to get the starter strips held in place and I knew it wasn't enough when I was inserting Q cells as one fell out. I'll have a go at re-positioning the comb but will leave it as it is for now as I need props for an association meeting at Longforgan a week on Saturday (and I've yet to start grafting!).

I saw Murray McG's squad sat down in his yard scraping and fiddling with Apideas last week (for breeding a totally different kind of honeybee probably). I could see that they don't stay shiny and clean, which is a pity. The Apideas. His squad was a well-turned out and polite bunch of east Europeans.

[Jimbo]

Here is my top tip put your apidea's and mini nucs into the dishwasher at no more that 55 degrees. They come out like new. Second top tip do it when your other half is not in the house.

[Jon]

And also fumigate everything with 80% acetic acid, especially the comb, as apideas are prone to build up of nosema spores by all accounts.

[EmsE]

If the bees are planning supercedure, when would they get rid of the old Queen?

[Adam]

It depends!
Sometimes they will keep the old queen and both queens will be laying in the hive (I've not seen this) or other times they'll swarm when you think they are superceding.
If you think they are superceding, clipping the queens wings will enable you to keep the bees if they do decide to swarm.