Bee thefts in Dundee

[gavin]

Just in case anyone reading this has information on (three?) pure Amm colonies and/or the new Thornes Nationals in which they were housed ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-13335327

... Google the researcher's name and you'll get an email address.

G.

[Trog]

Looks like four hives in the photo. Are colonies really that expensive on the East Coast?

[gavin]

Not half! £1000+ per colony, no bother.

To be serious, if you were to purchase 3 (or even 4) full colonies on the Isle of Man, visit them, transport them back, and house them in brand new Thornes Nationals then it might come to £3k. At least the email this morning said 3 colonies but now the implication is that there were four taken?

More TV attention here (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/tayside/248024-the-sting-thieves-make-off-with-bee-hives-from-18m-research-project/)and national radio and local newspapers have been taking an interest as well.

[Trog]

Well, I assumed four as that was how many in the photo but maybe it was just a generic one. If the press keeps going on about the scarcity of bees and quotes big prices, it's only going to increase the theft problem, IMHO.

[gavin]

The photo is of Ninewells and the STV piece was filmed there. It was Dr Connolly himself who was talking about the decline in bee numbers.

[Jon]

The photo is of Ninewells and the STV piece was filmed there. It was Dr Connolly himself who was talking about the decline in bee numbers.

What decline in bee numbers is that? The bbka report an increase in the uk from 40,000 colonies to 120,000 in the last 3 years.
Bees in the uk are doing well.
The UK press has erroneously latched on to the ccd issue which is largely a US phenomenon and this has been hijacked by anti pesticide campaigners.

[Alvearium]

The reported increase in bee numbers in England I am afraid does not mean much to me. What about those beekeepers who are not association members. Does anyone know how many of their colnies have been lost the past few years? No. There are no records. If you have a massive increase in the number of new beekeepers what do you do? Increase the colony numbers of course. And how? Split the colonies again and again.....import queens and you soon get colony numbers up. But it does not say anything about the health or the state of those new colonies and what their chances of survival are.

Do I detect a critical attitude about the cost of the colonies stolen from Ninewells, Dundee in the 10.34pm post of yesterday? I believe the researcher had very good reason to go to the Isle of Man for bees; a) they had to be varroa free so as to have bee larvae reared in comb not previously exposed to miticides, and b) he was given the very distinct impression by someone that he would not get bees from anyone in Scotland! What a piece of nonsense if not a downright lie.

And for the record, 4 hives were stolen. One had no bees. The rest were good stocks. One of those was on a double brood box with 2 supers. Certainly determined thieves and well experienced to manage their work so effectively.

I have been speaking to a lot of beekeepers recently and believe me there have been some horrendous losses. Not all round of course but enough to become seriously worried. I am sickened by what has happened and truely tired of the snide remarks that I pick up from various quarters and silly asides about hive numbers, how expensive these hives were and so on.

John Durkacz

[Jon]

Hi John
I too know bekeepers who have had tremendous losses.
One guy in my bka lost 27/27.
He argued with me last september that his bees had no varroa and therefore he had no need to treat.
He thought he had lost his bees to nosema ceranae but when he brought in samples of dead bees they were found to be riddled with varroa.
he just didn't see it.

The colony increase from 40,000 to 120,000 is only partly explained by new beekeepers and imports.
bees in the uk and Ireland are generally doing ok.
The guys I see with big losses are those who eschew standard varroa treatment and go for some quack remedy.

In the long run, I think the pesticide issue will prove to be a red herring.

Get on top of varroa and nosema and your bees will be fine.

[Trog]

My query re cost of stocks was based on the BBC article, which was all I knew about the loss. I've seen similar figures quoted for perfectly ordinary stocks stolen elsewhere and my complaint was against the press for seemingly inflating the costs of colonies which, to my mind, makes bees a more desireable target for the light-fingered.

Twenty-plus years ago we bought our first colony - full-size, 2 well-filled supers, a whole hive, for £60. Some beekeepers round our way actually charged for collecting swarms as nobody wanted them. Can anyone remember far enough back to tell me whether theft of colonies was a problem back then? Maybe it was but it seems to me a pretty lucrative market nowadays and beekeeping is in danger of becoming a hobby for the rich.

I've heard on the grapevine that colonies have also been stolen from Falkirk area. Anyone have info on this?

[Trog]

I believe the researcher had very good reason to go to the Isle of Man for bees; a) they had to be varroa free so as to have bee larvae reared in comb not previously exposed to miticides, and b) he was given the very distinct impression by someone that he would not get bees from anyone in Scotland! What a piece of nonsense if not a downright lie.
John Durkacz
John, if you know of anywhere in Scotland, apart from Colonsay, where we can source varroa-free bees which have been raised on comb from foundation that has not been bought from a commercial supplier in the last 20 years (ie the time folk in Britain, starting in southern England, have been treating varroa), please let me know. Seriously. You must know how difficult it is for those of us in the varroa-free areas to source guaranteed varroa-free bees. The Mull association did look into purchasing bees from the Isle of Man but the transport costs, and juggling more than one set of ferries, made it impossible. Anyone I know is struggling to supply bees to folk in their own area and would be both unwilling and unable to supply bees to a varroa-infested area, even if they could guarantee the purity of the comb because they'd been making their own foundation since the year dot.

I suspect the stolen bees will be unsaleable. Presumably the black bee afficionados insist on knowing the provenance and anyone with half an idea of what they look like will be suspicious if they're passed off as ordinary. Like stealing a Strad and trying to sell it as a fiddle. Someone's bound to spot the sudden appearance of brand-new hives stuffed full of bees where they weren't before.

[gavin]

I usually place a bait hive less than a km from that site and I've had good, Scottish dark bees from there. I suspect that there is a feral colony in the area. I wasn't enthusiastic about Manx Amm in the area as the breeding I want to do is from local natives not imported ones.

John, why didn't Dr Connolly go down the road of shook swarming if he wants to control what is in the wax? That seems much more realistic. Oh, and I've been told that Manx bees are far from pure Amm. If they are Amm-leaning mongrels they will look like most colonies around here.

I'm intrigued by the tone and the content of your 'piece of nonsense/downright lie' comment. Who did you have in mind there? In Tayside we've certainly struggled to help beginners find bees and I helped one last summer who had been patiently waiting for two years for local bees. Why should anyone lie to Dr Connolly about this? If it was me you are thinking about, he showed no sign of paying any attention to advice I gave him on the science of colony losses.

Please read my 10:34 post again. I was trying to explain to people why Dr Connolly might have said that his total cost was over £3k. He may have been misrepresented by the journalist who translated this to the cost of the bees alone. I repeated that message last night when the same kind of comment was made before our local committee meeting. I'm trying to be straight and fair.

This is by its nature a very high profile project. A huge amount of research cash is being invested in it, and there will be a lot of interest paid in its progress - whether it is the lab-based studies or the field survey taking place with SBA help. There are likely to be several more media frenzies and much more beekeeper comment before this project is finished. The general topic is probably the hottest one in beekeeping at the moment.

Lastly, you mention extensive losses. Here N of the Tay there have been losses but winter survival was reasonable. The main problem seems to have been queen failure of one kind or another and this was very site-specific. At my apiary things were better, but I suspect that the reason for that was that there were plenty of drones from commercial apiaries nearby. From chatting to a few in Fife, I wonder if poor Varroa control is a bigger issue in your area? Are people checking? I spoke to some who were just using powdered sugar which is as much use as a chocolate teapot. As Jon says, it is easy to check for Varroa - either bodies on bees or the faeces in vacated cells.

[Trog]

In the early days, I seem to remember folk being encouraged to use bee tobacco in the smoker to knock down varroa mites (and braula) to a white bit of paper placed under a mesh floor. Is this now not done? Or perhaps not allowed?

[gavin]

I know of no law against it. However powdered sugar has been adopted instead as a reasonable way to get a sample of the Varroa on adult bees. See:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/varroamapping/

There have been studies (can't be bothered looking for them!) that show that during the active season when there is sealed brood you remove too few to make it a sensible treatment for Varroa. If most are in sealed cells and you only remove a proportion on adults then you may only be holding the population static while you treat.

[Trog]

IIRC, it was a test you did in autumn when there was little sealed brood. Anyone else tried it?