Pagden et al

[Kate Atchley]

Can anyone tell me exactly what is and what is not a "Pagden" artificial swarm?
I teach a straightforward artificial swarm, with new box for Q+1 frame sealed brood and flying bees (the "swarm") on the original site, with the supers on top. The rest of the brood is left in the original box (the "parent") alongside (or taken elsewhere).

Variants attributed to Pagden include:

setting the "parent" hive sideways so the opening is at 90 degrees to the "swarm" box and bleeding the flying bees off at intervals, turning this hive through 180 degrees to do so (isn't that Heddon?)
putting the supers on the "parent" box, rather than with the Q and flying bees (I don't see the logic of that)


It can all get pretty complex for the beginner, however keen, and that's before they find out about Snelgrove, Demaree, Horsley et al ... oh, and shook swarms. Perhaps the apparent complexity explains why there seem to be lots of beekeepers who remain thoroughly nervous of their bees' swarming instincts ... scared of finding swarm cells and far from confident they can handle the situation.

Oh, and I've been playing with large Lego Duplo blocks, in different colours, to demonstrate the artificial swarm. The beginners 'get it' instantly!

All good fun!

[Jon]

I usually do it the way you describe in your first paragraph but I change things a bit depending on what outcome I want.
If I want to leave a strong colony I remove the queen and a couple of frames of bees to a nuc. You can then either (a)leave one cell to hatch, (b) introduce a cell from elsewhere or (c) requeen.
The other thing I do on occasion is remove the queen to a nuc, wait 6 days, remove all queen cells and then introduce a frame of grafts with larvae from a better queen. Again, you can remove all but one a couple of days before they hatch and the rest are used for apideas or making up nucs.
What I love about the two options above is the fact that you cannot lose a swarm from a strong colony which has no queen, only queen cells.

[Kate Atchley]

Curious that this topic doesn't generate much feedback ... as though swarming has gone out of fashion? The beginners I've taught find swarm control the most challenging topic of the beekeeping courses so it deserves plenty of attention.

Bring it on bees!

Kate

[Rosie]

Kate

Your first explanation is also my understanding of the Pagden system although I have only learned it second hand.

Unlike you though I don't understand the logic of leaving the supers with the flyers. They are capable of bringing in plenty of stores and have very little brood or house bees to consume it. Hence it seems to me that they need empty space for laying and storage rather than stores, apart, of course, from a small amount to tide them over a dearth. On the other hand the original colony on the new site will have a lot of mouths to feed and very few foragers so they will need plenty of stores. I would prefer to put the majority of the stores with the second lot.

Having said all that I rarely use the Pagden system in any case and prefer to move the queen with the brood to the new site, leaving the flyers with a small amount of brood and a queen cell. For me it seems to work much more frequently that way and rarely fails to curb the swarming impulse. The drawback is that the old bees are mostly dead by the time the new virgin has produced any replacement adults so the hive will need to be assisted after eggs appear by being given brood and nurses from the other half.

Rosie

[EmsE]

We were taught (not had the chance of personal experience) that if you use the 1st Pagden variant (Heddon?) then this boosts the foraging force in the colony with the supers so you then still have a good chance of getting a decent honey crop. Would peoples preference to what method to use depend on what they're wanting from their bees?

[Trog]

I suppose some learners get uptight about swarms because some seem to think that to lose one means you've failed as a beekeeper. Surely we've all missed a queen cell from time to time or been unable to inspect the bees during prolonged spells of appalling weather (such as the one we're currently having here in the west) and they're off as soon as the sun comes out. Our lot need to be checked by Tuesday at the latest and if the weather forecast is anything to go by we have a choice of inspecting them in a heavy downpour, persistent rain with strong winds or a thunderstorm!

[Neils]

I absolutely haven't missed queen cells in a colony, especially not just a couple of weeks ago when there definitely weren't three cells in the colony rather than the one I thought I'd left. Oops

[Kate Atchley]

Even Pagden himself surely missed a few queen cells!

Rosie and Esme ... re the supers ... I think it's all about the honey and the flow. Assuming the split is being done during a good nectar flow - which is likely - then putting the supers back on the original site with flying bees, allows them to store any surplus they gather beyond what they need to draw out the new brood nest ... and they may need some of the stores for that as it's such nectar-intensive work. But if the flow is poor or there's a gap, maybe I'd feed the stores to the new colony with emerging queen and brood. Either way, I would be likely to feed syrup to the colony that doesn't have the supers.

Yes Trog, here in the west my colonies are building up remarkably fast: I was away for a week and now I am watching the rain clouds with wind in my hair, hoping the bees are not getting ideas beyond their station down there in the brood boxes! Have added a few extra supers between showers. I haven't wanted to give them too much brood space earlier as I'd like to set up plenty of nucs for beginners from harvested queen cells.

One of last year's beginners made me a Cloake board which he brought round yesterday ... a splendid piece of kit. I hope to use it, and two Horsley boards I've made, for queen cell raising. I hope this might be an easier and rather more natural way to rear queens than grafting. Have also pretty well given up on my Apidea boxes as beginners need a full nuc so, all being well, this'll be "slow breeding" with nucs, rather than "fast breeding" with mini-nucs.

Talking of increase ... one of my hens is sitting on nine beautiful eggs, for the first time. The cockerel's being put the test for the first time too.

[Trog]

A first time broody hatched nine out of 12 eggs 3 days ago. Squashed two. The one yellow chick out of the hatching was her own; the others not related but as the yellow one was different (not a problem if more than one of that colour), she went for it repeatedly, pecking it viciously. By lunchtime yesterday she'd taken the skin off its neck so we removed it to a box by the range. Seems to find husband and self a reasonable substitute and ate a substantial breakfast this morning. Has radio for company and prefers violins to other instruments. No verdict on radio 4 yet!

[Hoomin_erra]

I have a hen sitting on 8 duck eggs.

[Jon]

It's priceless to watch the reaction of the hen when they take to the water.

[GRIZZLY]

It's priceless to watch the reaction of the hen when they take to the water.

Our old hen used to paddle with the ducklings.I had to rescue her one day when she got out of her depth and didn't quite understand why she wouldn't float.

[Trog]

I knew some quail who'd been raised with ducklings who, when frightened, would take to the water and 'swim' across to the other side. They weren't very good at it but did manage the crossing! 'Yeller' has had a good day and is eating and drinking without prompting now, which is good news.

[Adam]

The basic pagden method where the foragers and old queen remain on the original site with the supers means that you do tend to get the honey - especially if you move the broodbox containing the nurse bees and queencell to the other side a week later (No later or the virgin may fly and get lost). If you have the brood and queencell with little stores you can always feed it syrup which is cheaper than the honey your older bees are gathering (we hope). I haven't done any regimental "turning through 180 degrees stuff" unless room is restricted. I have moved the queen out on occasions to form a nuc with some brood; the problem here is that if you then leave a large queenless colony they can be a bit stroppy - especially if the queen doesn't mate.

I have one colony that I have Demaree'd where the brood goes up top leaving the queen below; Need to see what's going on in there!

[lindsay s]

Since I started beekeeping my main methods of swarm control and colony increase have been to make up 4 or 5 frame nucs or I removed the old queen from the original colony when queen cells were present. I had often thought about trying out the Pagden method but I was concerned about the following.

I didn’t know anybody who’d tried it in Orkney
Would there be enough bees left with the bulk of the brood to stop it from getting chilled
Would the bees in the original hive manage to draw out all the foundation in the brood box (I have 14x12 frames)

So until Tuesday I never had the nerve to try out the Pagden method but a phone call from S changed all that. S had been inspecting her hives and came across a very strong colony with queen cells so asked me if I would like to help. 15 minutes later I was at her apiary and we were discussing what to do with the colony when I mentioned the Pagden method. I admitted I had never tried this before but she was willing to give it ago.
S was very organised and had a spare hive already made up with frames of foundation, she also had a couple of drawn frames as well. It didn’t take us long to split the hive and we left the box with most of the brood right next to the original colony, we will move it before the new queen hatches. The old queen has 1 frame of brood, 2 drawn combs and the rest is foundation with 2 supers above one of which is full of honey.
S is quite happy for one of her colonies to be a guinea pig and we’ll be taking a close interest over the next few weeks. By the way the swarming season is just starting up here.

[Adam]

The flying bees will return to the old site - the nurse bees remain with the brood, so the brood won't get chilled.
It can take a while for the colony on the old site to get going and grow as there are very few bees to produce wax so comb takes a while to get drawn - these younger bees are with the brood of course.

Sometimes the urge to swarm is still there and I have had (and others have posted) that occasionally the queen will have a queencell after a few days anyway in which case the hive swarms despite your best efforts. As there is little brood, the hive is pretty empty. My suggestion is to have a look see at the queen on the original site after a few days and check that there are no queencells.

[The Drone Ranger]

I think even for beginners the Snelgrove board is the best way to get a new queen, prevent swarming, and get a honey crop but even if you don't use the board Snelgrove's book "Swarming its control and prevention" is slim, easy to follow, and clearly explains all the the available options.
Everyone should have a copy

[Dan]

We were taught (not had the chance of personal experience) that if you use the 1st Pagden variant (Heddon?)

Am I the only one who finds all the named variants of an artificial swarm to be like the Radio 4 game 'Mornington Crescent'...?

Fundamentally you're trying to split two from three; pick any combination of:

Queen
Brood
Flying bees

I read recently a review of artificial swarm methods and it examined about 8 published methods, all of which differed and some greatly so. I think it was the 1970's Ministry of Agriculture booklet on swarming.

So some methods end up with queen and brood but no flying bees; some end up with queen and flying bees but no brood. The fundamental thing is to choose one method which suits your selection of equipment, and follow it to the letter. Do not try to pick'n'mix :)

I would say Snelgrove's methods are the most convoluted, but do reduce lifting and equipment requirements (spare floors, roofs, etc.). There is a much simpler system generally referred to as 'vertical split' that we learnt of from Australian commercial beekeepers in the 1980's. See 'Beekeeping in a Nutshell' #14, Swarm Control, which explains it in great detail.

[Jon]

I sometimes do vertical splits lifting the brood up above the crown board on a new floor leaving the queen, flyers and supers down below.
You can easily requeen the top part as young bees accept a new queen very easily. Once the new queen has got going you can remove the old queen and recombine via newspaper after removing the floor and putting in an excluder. It looks a bit daft having the brood box on top of the supers but it can be put the right way around in a few days when the bees have mixed properly. I requeened one like this saturday week ago and I recombined yesterday evening after removing the bottom box with the old queen in it. All the flyers will drift back today. (when the rain stops) I will probably make a nuc from the part with the old queen after replacing her with a new one from an apidea.