Langstroth to National

[Kate Atchley]

DILEMMA: a local beekeeper has langstroth hives and needs to pass on a couple of colonies to free up boxes/hives for Spring swarm control. Most beginners - and we have lots of them - are buying national equipment. Langstroths here are rare.

I'm suggesting she could put a national brood box beneath a langstroth, with a customised board between them to cover the margins between the boxes, where the langstroth overlaps the national box. The entrance would be at the bottom, into the national. So the bees will gradually colonise the brood frames in the bottom/national box.

Ideally, if the colony is strong, we could then split them to achieve two colonies, OR make sure the Q is below in the national, under a Qx, gradually clearing brood from the langstroth box for reuse in swarm control with other colonies. The colony on national frames can be given to a new beekeeper.

QUESTION: Has anyone experience of these manipulations and/or other suggestions?

[GRIZZLY]

DILEMMA: a local beekeeper has langstroth hives and needs to pass on a couple of colonies to free up boxes/hives for Spring swarm control. Most beginners - and we have lots of them - are buying national equipment. Langstroths here are rare.

I'm suggesting she could put a national brood box beneath a langstroth, with a customised board between them to cover the margins between the boxes, where the langstroth overlaps the national box. The entrance would be at the bottom, into the national. So the bees will gradually colonise the brood frames in the bottom/national box.

Ideally, if the colony is strong, we could then split them to achieve two colonies, OR make sure the Q is below in the national, under a Qx, gradually clearing brood from the langstroth box for reuse in swarm control with other colonies. The colony on national frames can be given to a new beekeeper.

QUESTION: Has anyone experience of these manipulations and/or other suggestions?

Shook swarm from the langstroth into the national - fitted with fresh frames and foundation.Put the langstroth back on top over a q excluder and crown board to let the emerging brood run down into the bottom hive.You'll have to let drone brood free from the top brood box occasionally until all the brood has hatched.

[gavin]

Hi Kate

No direct experience, but here are some thoughts.

Bees prefer to work up, so I'd put the National above the Langstroth with a sheet of plywood or similar between the two to provide the adapter. Cut out a big square to give them free access to the box above.

If you also cut out a sliver (then put it back temporarily) to act as a new entrance you could do the whole thing as a Bailey comb change.

Shook swarms are also possible, if so I'd wait until the colony builds up more. A Bailey comb change could be done quite soon. This is from one of my talks.

Gavin

http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/bailey.jpg

[gavin]

Note to Nellie as much as anyone: I can't see me ever doing a shook swarm unless I have to because of foulbrood. Destroying all that brood just doesn't appeal, even if (properly fed) colonies are supposed to romp away afterwards.

G.

[Rosie]

The point of the second entrance is to prevent the bees having to pass through the disease-ridden bottom box to get to the top one. As this exercise is just to change box size I would have thought the top entrance would not be necessary, unless of course it was also intended to reduce disease at the same time.

I use bailey comb changes quite often and it usually works swimmingly but occasionally they just don't expand upwards. In cases like that I usually run out of patience and just shake them all into the top box above a qx and wait for the old bottom box to empty. If you put the old box on the top instead of the bottom is just fills with honey as the brood vacates it and it's all wasted.

Rosie

[Neils]

Note to Nellie as much as anyone: I can't see me ever doing a shook swarm unless I have to because of foulbrood. Destroying all that brood just doesn't appeal, even if (properly fed) colonies are supposed to romp away afterwards.

G.

I acknowledge that Shook Swarming has its place. My only real concern with it is the frequency with which it's flung around forums, especially at this time of year as a no impact , cure all treatment or way of saving time. Sure a strong colony can come back even stronger as a result of a shook swarm, I've read studies around using the technique to improve honey harvests too. A weak or smaller colony, especially coming out of winter, can struggle though; there simply aren't the number of (young) bees in the colony to handle that loss of brood and you can end you can end up knocking back the colony development severely.

And yes, there is also the whole brood destruction issue that I have problems with when it comes to recommending it as a time saving technique.

[Kate Atchley]

Great suggestions. Am reluctant to do a shook swarm - so stressful for the bees and no urgency (but if I did, would follow initial suggestion and allow remaining brood to emerge and join the new box, from above cover board and Qx). Will try the Bailey comb change if the beekeeper agrees! Don't think they'll need the upper entrance as I don't believe there is a disease problem, per se, but good to know the technique.

I can see myself learning lots of new tricks via SBAi.

Thanks Kate