Bee genetics again

[Jon]

I came across this link which has nice colour coded diagrams with regard to the old chestnut about inbreeding.

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/genetic_aspects_queen_production_1.html

[Jimbo]

Jon you only just found it! Nice explaination though. I have seen these diagrams before in a bee genetics paper a number of years ago. I will look and see if I can find the link when I get time. DNA is old hat now what you want to look at is miRNA and gene chips.

Jimbo

[gavin]

Show off!

Anyway, we're talking just genes and not even DNA. *Genes* are what matters, not this little spots on tiny slides stuff.

Mr Picky here read through the stuff and thought it absolutely grand, so you can take that as a vote of confidence in the site.

[Neils]

Some people might take that as a sign it should be avoided at all costs ;)

Bookmarked for later perusal as it feels like I'm learning Latin at the moment; why can't we use monty python latin for stuff? Smallus hivebeetleus is much easier to remember :D

[HensandBees]

I guess I better not say in public what my OH came up with for remembering the latin for American Foul Brood .... . but it went something along the lines of Pain the B.......de I have never forgotten it .... just cannot spell it Good Luck for Saturday

[HensandBees]

that should have read Pain in the B...de I cant type

[gavin]

Some people might take that as a sign it should be avoided at all costs

Where has the contrary one gone anyway? Away to recharge his batteries for the next bout?


... should have read Pain in the B...de

I'm left wondering if you are offering a new competition, guess the letters? S'pose it must be 'acksi'? That isn't so rude as to need hiding!

Anyway, it used to be called Bacillus (easy!) larvae (easier!). Then someone stuck on a 'Paeni-' to complicate matters. I read somewhere that 'paeni-' might mean almost, as in peninsula, but who knows. Anyway, Paenibacillus.

You get a better quality of chat on SBAi.

G.

[Neils]

There's a second larvae on the end now apparently too. Paenebacillus Larvae Larvae. The DEFRA book doesn't use the second one though so confusion abounds but I'm told if you take the modules south of the border they want the second Larvae in the name.

[gavin]

9/10

It would have been 10/10 but you don't capitalise the Larvae.

Two words in the name exactly the same?! Couldn't be easier!

[Neils]

FFS.

This us we need to be able to edit posts, so Its not preserved for posterity that I typoed paenibacillus while typing on a phone on the bus and then have to write a ranty post about the unfairness of the world and how everyone hates me...

Sorry, think I was channeling Lilly Allen or something.

[gavin]

I think that I set the editing period to zero which means that you can go back and edit whenever you like? Let me know if not.

[Neils]

Nope, but might be a Tapatalk issue maybe.

[HensandBees]

It was more the close association of Pains and Americans ,.....

[Neils]

9/10

It would have been 10/10 but you don't capitalise the Larvae.

Two words in the name exactly the same?! Couldn't be easier!

I'll have me point back for you not spotting the spelling was wrong :D

It's got to the stage where I dreamt I was back at school learning Latin (which I never did) the other night.

Spent yesterday raging that I couldn't retain small hive beetle and tropilaelaps. Woke up thus morning and muttered aethina tumida and t.clareae t.koenigurum so maybe all isn't lost after all. Now I'm going to make sure I spelled them right.

[Neils]

Almost. It's Tropilaelaps koenigErum

So only the first word is capitalised, kicking myself for not spotting that before!

Picus viridis, micus domesticus are the two less helpful names I can remember. Chalkbrood might be more useful to know but hey ho, 24 hours time I'll have finished it and have a couple of months to stew on whether I scraped a pass or not.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
That link was a thing of beauty Jon! If you follow the logic objectively you will see that the inbreeding scenario postulated earlier – where the totally isolated apiary of 10 unrelated colonies loses 50% of the colonies over the winter without any breeding have taken place; thus the 5 surviving colonies supply the 10 queens for the next generation, which at best would result in 5 pairs of related queens. Despite the variety of alleles in the spermathecas of the 5 surviving mother queens, which in the hypothetical postulation will be culled in each subsequent late summer; each queen of the next generation of new queens will be produced from only one drone allele. The next generation of drones will result from the 5 surviving mother queens, which will even be more closely related. Thus reducing the unrelated alleles available quite dramatically. As I postulated in the first instance critical inbreeding mass is achieved quite quickly.
Just eat the bowls of fruit, Gavin!
Eric

[Neils]

Where has the contrary one gone anyway? Away to recharge his batteries for the next bout?


G.
Speak and he shall come :D

[Jon]

Hi All
That link was a thing of beauty Jon!


The next generation of drones will result from the 5 surviving mother queens, which will even be more closely related. Thus reducing the unrelated alleles available quite dramatically.

Fruit for Gavin but the alphabet again for Eric!
Hard to beat a bit of colour coding for us mere mortals. A curse be upon your fancy dan Mitochondrial RNA Jimbo.
Eric, you will remember of course that a population only runs into problems when the number of sex alleles drops to 6 or less, and even then only in your hypothetical completely closed population. Doesn't seem to be a problem on Colonsay with a closed population of 50 colonies.

As an aside, I was talking to Micheál Mac Giolla Coda the Galtee man last Saturday and your spirit appeared before me in a vision so I asked him about inbreeding problems. You can stop worrying about the Galtee bees getting inbred. He has 150 colonies, and his sidekick Redmond has 100. There are other beekeepers in the valley with 30 or 40 and the total number certainly runs to maybe 500. I think there are 80-100 beekepers involved.

[gavin]

I'm keeping out of this one, other than to say that Jim's RNA is micro rather than mitochondrial this time. Its the latest fad. Micro-RNA is a short sequence that folds back into a hairpin and effective suppresses the expression of a gene. Part of the feedback mechanisms that makes organisms tick.

Sorry Nellie, you can safely ignore this. Unlikely to feature in a BBKA exam.

[Neils]

All preparation for next year!

[Jon]

I'm keeping out of this one, other than to say that Jim's RNA is micro rather than mitochondrial this time. Its the latest fad. Micro-RNA is a short sequence that folds back into a hairpin and effective suppresses the expression of a gene. Part of the feedback mechanisms that makes organisms tick.



Ah yes, was this related to stuff about a bit of the IAPV sequence being shown to be incorporated into the genome of some honeybees - mooted to confer resistance to the virus by turning off a gene (allegedly). Either way it is fancy dan genetics rather than fruit or letters. Peter L Borst and some others got well worked up about it on beesource and beeline.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All

Gavin, waffle all you like! But the 10 colony scenario postulated will culminate in massive inbreeding due to each generation of queens becoming more closely related.
That the reducing number of unrelated drones resulting from these inbred queens will rapidly reach critical mass is so patently obvious to the objective observer. Closed minds do not make for good research! Encouraging others to accept your dogma ‘as read’ is also not a commendable trait.
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Jon, you are into Gavin's fruit bowl again – comparing apples with bananas. 10 colonies suffering 50% annual loss is not comparable to 50 colonies in a well managed situation.
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Jon wrote:
Eric, you will remember of course that a population only runs into problems when the number of sex alleles drops to 6 or less, and even then only in your hypothetical completely closed population.
.................................................. .........
So Jon, we have come full circle! You have now seen the light and demonstrated a goodly degree of objectivity. Speak to Gavin!
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Nellie, Go with the flow by all means – but swimming against the stream can be intellectually rewarding. I find it so! Admitting to learning on the ‘swim’ is also good for the soul

[Jon]

Jon wrote:
Eric, you will remember of course that a population only runs into problems when the number of sex alleles drops to 6 or less, and even then only in your hypothetical completely closed population.
.................................................. .........
So Jon, we have come full circle!

Indeed we have. There was a time when the penny dropped but now you are back to not understanding again.
5 queens = possibly 10 sex alleles although it could of course be less, plus more represented in the spermathecae of the various queens.
And where is this hypothetical closed population?

[Neils]

Hi All


Nellie, Go with the flow by all means – but swimming against the stream can be intellectually rewarding. I find it so! Admitting to learning on the ‘swim’ is also good for the soul
Eric, I try very hard not to go with the flow but to question and argue it at every opportunity. That doesn't make the flow wrong either.

That being said, in recent discussions generally around beekeeping, the flow has been demonstrably dishonest or at best naive so I'm happy to sit outside that group and pick holes it in. I know you're probably referring to my tendency to agree with Gavin and/or Jon here but that's simply because they tend to say more things that I agree with than most.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
Jon wrote: Eric, you will remember of course that a population only runs into problems when the number of sex alleles drops to 6 or less, and even then only in your hypothetical completely closed population.
.................................................. ........

Yes, Jon I remember the great flurry of pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo using the now legendary bowls of fruit and genetic experts working with thousands of genes and skiers with coloured cloth and all sort of devices; desperate to discredit the original hypothetical closed population postulation, which you are now conceding was correct.
Your question; - “And where is this hypothetical closed population” has connotations which I find quite revealing – coming from a person who purports to be scientifically orientated. We, H.sapiens, pride ourselves in supposedly being the only animal on the planet that is capable of employing abstract thought as a tool for solving problems and making decisions. Should your apparent inability to understand this concept worry me? The original postulation was made to highlight the potential dangers of a diminishing gene pool in any remote area with low honey bee colony density. Considering the interest and controversy which the thread stimulated – I deem the exercise to have been a success. A number of people have actually mailed me to thanks me for drawing attention to the issue of inbreeding.

To diversify – controversies are an inherent component of the human situation and there are many way of settling them. Better to discuss objectively or conduct objective independent research into cause and effect; much as the pending work of Dr Connolly and his team in the furtherance of our understanding of the present controversy surrounding pesticides and honey bee demise: instead of conducting some kind of vendetta to discredit the project. Perhaps all will soon be revealed!

Eric

[GRIZZLY]

Lordy lordy I didn't understand it all the first time.Have we not stepped back onto the same old roundabout again??

[Jon]

Lordy lordy I didn't understand it all the first time.Have we not stepped back onto the same old roundabout again??

You are in good company then, for the man who published articles in the Scottish beekeeper starting with 160 sex alleles (when the total number is actually a maximum of 19) being reduced to zilch over 10 generations obviously didn't understand it either. (and still doesn't!)


desperate to discredit the original hypothetical closed population postulation, which you are now conceding was correct.

The original hypothesis based on your article in the magazine and still highlighted on moraybeedinosaurs was rubbish at the time and is still rubbish.
19 alleles Eric, not 160!


The original postulation was made to highlight the potential dangers of a diminishing gene pool in any remote area with low honey bee colony density.

Given that drones can easily travel 10 miles and Beowulf Cooper reckoned you needed 20 for complete isolation, can you name a few spots in Scotland where there is a beekeeper with just a couple of colonies 15 miles from the nearest beekeeper or feral colony. Maybe there are a lot of beekeepers on the Monroe peaks!


legendary bowls of fruit and genetic experts working with thousands of genes and skiers with coloured cloth and all sort of devices

But remember the Alamo, I mean the alphabet. That was where the recently regurgitated penny first dropped, as the alphabet can never have more than 26 letters no matter how many sets of scrabble you mix together. If you want 160 letters or more you will have to start speaking Chinese or maybe double dutch - hmmm!

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All

GRIZZLY wrote:
Lordy lordy I didn't understand it all the first time.Have we not stepped back onto the same old roundabout again??
.................................................. ..................................
Hi Grizzly! As the weans in Glasgow are wont to say – It wis’nae me!

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John wrote:
You are in good company then, for the man who published articles in the Scottish beekeeper starting with 160 sex alleles (when the total number is actually a maximum of 19) being reduced to zilch over 10 generations obviously didn't understand it either. (and still doesn't!).
.................................................. .........
Consider:
Each queen of each hypothetical colony mated with 16 unrelated drones – each drone contributed his genetic complement, including a particular sex allele: So each queen of each of the 10 colonies, as already agreed, received one sex allele from each of the 16 drones with which she mates – a total of 16 unrelated sex alleles each.
Extrapolate this argument to 10 separate colonies; each colony queen receiving an unrelated sex allele from each drone, thus each colony possesses 16 unrelated sex alleles: simple multiplication dictates that there must therefore be 10 x 16 = 160 unrelated potential sex alleles in the apiary. Or if you wish to have these queen perform in a more nymphomaniac manner – 10 x 19 =180 unrelated alleles.
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Jon wrote:
The original hypothesis based on your article in the magazine and still highlighted on moraybeedinosaurs was rubbish at the time and is still rubbish.
19 alleles Eric, not 160! The original postulation was made to highlight the potential dangers of a diminishing gene pool in any remote area with low honey bee colony density. Given that drones can easily travel 10 miles and Beowulf Cooper reckoned you needed 20 for complete isolation, can you name a few spots in Scotland where there is a beekeeper with just a couple of colonies 15 miles from the nearest beekeeper or feral colony.

.................................................. ...........
My own area in Dalmuir is such a “ low honey bee colony density” area - as is the area around Kilberry in Argyll and the Crinan Canal. – to say nothing of places like Jura or Ghia. Drones and queens in the West Coast of Scotland have high winds to contend with which makes “distance mating” fraught.
In the totally isolated,10 colony postulation the colonies coming out of the 3rd/4th winter will be headed by sister queens of varying degree and the drones with which these ladies will mate will be drones produced by inbred queens resulting from previous brother/ sister/uncle unions - from only 10 colonies

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Jon wrote:
If you want 160 letters or more you will have to start speaking Chinese or maybe double dutch - hmmm!

.............................................

Maybe once the queen has had her fill - she returns the surplus letters to sender.

Eric

[Jon]

Consider:
Each queen of each hypothetical colony mated with 16 unrelated drones – each drone contributed his genetic complement, including a particular sex allele: So each queen of each of the 10 colonies, as already agreed, received one sex allele from each of the 16 drones with which she mates – a total of 16 unrelated sex alleles each.
Extrapolate this argument to 10 separate colonies; each colony queen receiving an unrelated sex allele from each drone, thus each colony possesses 16 unrelated sex alleles: simple multiplication dictates that there must therefore be 10 x 16 = 160 unrelated potential sex alleles in the apiary. Or if you wish to have these queen perform in a more nymphomaniac manner – 10 x 19 =180 unrelated alleles.
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Eric, sorry but that is just wrong, misunderstood. There are only 19 different sex alleles. You can't have 160 or worse still 180. You are misunderstanding something very basic here which is leading you to make false assumptions. This was all explained in the previous thread.

[Jon]

simple multiplication dictates..



10 x 19 =180

!!!!!

[Eric McArthur]

Hi John
Originally Posted by Eric McArthur
10 x 19 =180
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Win some lose some!!!

I forgot to mention the Blane Valley, north of Glasgow, between Milngavie and Killearn as another honey bee desert with few colonies - mostly related. Beekeepers need to really take on board the need to increase colony numbers over the coming years instead of working for honey.
Limited genetic material is a real problem in a number of areas in Scotland which must be addressed, otherwise Varroa and the pesticides issue will become irrelevant as colonies fail in the ’at risk areas’. Merely being ‘in denial’ that a problem exists will not solve it.
Eric

[Jon]

Is the greater Glasgow area really a honeybee desert?
I don't know the area like you do but that seems hard to believe.
Other cities in the UK seem to be saturated with bee colonies especially from new beekeepers who are taking up the craft.
There were recent complaints about Boris Johnson encouraging more beekeepers as the existing keepers reckon London is at saturation point.
Belfast has dozens of beekeepers and its only a little city of 350,000.

The best way to test an area for drone isolation is to put out a few apideas with virgins over the summer. If they fail to mate it would suggest your hypothesis is correct.
This strategy would also be a good one for setting up an isolated mating site as once you find a drone free area you can stock it with your own drone colonies and bring the mating nucs to it.
I can't think of anywhere in Northern Ireland where you would get an area like this, except possibly the Sperrins which is as near to the back of beyond as we have here.

[gavin]

Eric, you are always looking to find a reason why 'We're doomed!!' whereas a more balanced approach keeps people on board and is reasonable.

Within 15 km (just over 9 miles) of Blanefield you have much of Greater Glasgow, Cumbernauld and Lenzie, Dumbarton and up to John's area to the N where there are quite a few feral colonies as well as beekeepers' colonies. Drones can fly 40 miles but a few miles are more likely. Casts also fly quite a few miles.

As there are just a few related colonies in the Blane valley then they might have only some of the 19 alleles and inbreeding might sometimes be an issue - but there will be some mating over long distances so any problem could be self-limiting with the more out-bred stocks more vigorous and more likely to reproduce. However some careful exchange of stocks or queens with other beekeepers in the area might help reinvigorate moribund apiaries - don't you do that Eric? By careful I mean after carefully checking for disease and careful not to contaminate genetically interesting stocks.

And as to pesticide issues becoming irrelevant I think that may happen anyway!

G.

[Neils]

Is the greater Glasgow area really a honeybee desert?
I don't know the area like you do but that seems hard to believe.
Other cities in the UK seem to be saturated with bee colonies especially from new beekeepers who are taking up the craft.
There were recent complaints about Boris Johnson encouraging more beekeepers as the existing keepers reckon London is at saturation point.
Belfast has dozens of beekeepers and its only a little city of 350,000.

The best way to test an area for drone isolation is to put out a few apideas with virgins over the summer. If thay fail to mate it would suggest your hypothesis is correct.
This strategy would also be a good one for setting up an isolated mating site as once you find a drone free area you can stock it with your own drone colonies and bring the mating nucs to it.
I can't think of anywhere in Northern Ireland where you would get an area like this, except possibly the Sperrins which is as near to the back of beyond as we have here.

Bristol's similar, we've over 100 members and I can add at least 10% more to that just of Beekeepers I know about who aren't members. The neighbouring areas are hardly deserts either.

Do SBA publish any figures relating to general membership numbers and/or colony numbers? (I would look but on a phone at the moment).

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Gavin/Jon
I am pleased to note that you are now acknowledging the fact of inbreeding. Recollect my first post on the Irish Forum some years ago. When you dismissed out of hand my question to the Forum – relative to inbreeding in Scotland’s bees. Inbreeding is now recognised as an important issue. Your statement relative to ‘gloom and doom’ is actually a manifestation of forward thinking on my part – something which seems to be out with your capacity.
Your “Doomsday” comment is a real consideration when related to the past and current industrial chemicals situation, to which you by your own admission are an ardent subscriber - and I quote:: “..and as to pesticide issues becoming irrelevant I think that may happen anyway”
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Yes! When there is nothing left to kill!!!
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Jon wrote:
The best way to test an area for drone isolation is to put out a few apideas (4 frame nuclei!) with virgins over the summer. If they fail to mate it would suggest your hypothesis is correct.
.................................................. .......................
This has already been done in the Clydebank area 3 years ago when I moved my garden colonies out!
Get Gavin to copy “Noah’s Ark – A Doomsday Scenario”, for you, which appeared in the Scottish beekeeper magazine in March 2008. This article highlighted the mating dangers incurred by widely separated colonies.
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Jon wrote:
Other cities in the UK seem to be saturated with bee colonies especially from new beekeepers who are taking up the craft.
.................................................. ...............
There are barely 100 beekeeper members of the Clyde Area Beekeepers’ Association which is an amalgamation of the 5 local associations which embrace Renfrewshire, Argyll, West and East Dunbartonshire and Lanarkshire. The average number of colonies is 3 – 4.
To end on a sobering note – if you guys are right about this plethora of bees everywhere; how can you square that view with the criminal prices being charged for bees – I have seen advertisements asking £250 for nuclei. Thorne’s 2011 catalogue is quoting prices of £200 for nuclei and £45 for queens! The market is governed by supply and demand and the above scenario implies that you guys are being “economical with the truth”.

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Gavin wrote:
Drones can fly 40 miles but a few miles are more likely.
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Check this link out and work out how many DCAs there might be in the target area of West Scotland.

DRONE CONGREGATION AREAS. ONE ASPECT OF HONEY BEE MATING
http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters04/apis-uk0204.htm
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Gavin wrote:
However some careful exchange of stocks or queens with other beekeepers in the area might help reinvigorate moribund apiaries - don't you do that Eric? By careful I mean after carefully checking for disease and careful not to contaminate genetically interesting stocks.
.................................................. .....
You’ve got some nerve! And I quote you yet again – “..careful not to contaminate genetically interesting stocks”. When for years you have been justifying commercial beekeeper imports of bees from out with the UK – hypocritical to say the least.
With me you get what you see!

I wrote the book on managing amalgamated bee colonies, when I set up the original; CABA apiary project in 2006. One of these days you are going to venture into print with some real beekeeping management issues instead of sniping at procedures second hand! You keep promising to correct in the "Scottish Beekeeper" the rubbish (your words!) that I have been writing over the years. I wait with bated breath for your novel words of wisdom. Perhaps we could exchange ideas at the AGM – Saturday!
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[Jon]

To end on a sobering note – if you guys are right about this plethora of bees everywhere; how can you square that view with the criminal prices being charged for bees – I have seen advertisements asking £250 for nuclei. Thorne’s 2011 catalogue is quoting prices of £200 for nuclei and £45 for queens! The market is governed by supply and demand and the above scenario implies that you guys are being “economical with the truth”.

I am with you on that one Eric. There are people solely interested in making a fast buck out of the current wave of interest in beekeeping.
There is a massive demand though, and some of the beekeeper associations are struggling to keep up with the needs of the new members.
I am organising a more formal queen rearing project in my own BKA and we hope to raise a couple of hundred queens and provide 30 or 40 nucs to new members this year. The nucs will be selling at £100 which is well below current market value.
You will know better than most how much work there is in getting a few dozen queens mated and making up nucs.
Last year I produced over 100 grafted queens. Most of them were given away as virgins, or as cells on the point of hatching for apideas. I kept about 30 for myself of which around 15 got mated properly. The weather is the big problem rather than inbreeding concerns in my opinion. I brought a lot of apideas to an apiary with unrelated drones produced from 12 colonies and the success rate was 45%. weather can wreck the best thought out plans.

[gavin]

Hi Eric

> I am pleased to note that you are now acknowledging the fact of
> inbreeding. Recollect my first post on the Irish Forum some years
> ago. When you dismissed out of hand my question to the Forum

Not me Eric. I am no new convert to the issue of inbreeding. It pervades a lot of what I do as a geneticist at work where inbreeding in wild potatoes (with their S alleles) is much the same as honeybees with their csd alleles. I seldom dismiss anything out of hand, except perhaps exaggerated claims.

> is actually a manifestation of forward thinking on my part – something
> which seems to be out with your capacity.

Please stop these personal insults Eric. By the way, outwith is usually one word when used as a Scottish preposition.

> Your “Doomsday” comment is a real consideration when related to the past and current industrial chemicals situation, to which you by your own admission are an ardent subscriber - and I quote:: “..and as to pesticide issues becoming irrelevant I think that may happen anyway”

Don't be ridiculous. I am not an ardent supporter of pesticide use, I'm just pragmatic. I would much rather that we didn't have to use them, and if we do need to I would like them not to be over-used and misused.

> You’ve got some nerve! And I quote you yet again – “..careful not to
> contaminate genetically interesting stocks”. When for years you have been
> justifying commercial beekeeper imports of bees from out with the UK –
> hypocritical to say the least.
> With me you get what you see!

Utterly ridiculous lies. Nothing more, nothing less. I dislike commercial beekeeper imports and have told them so. You have such a twisted opinion of me it is incredible to see. Unfortunately you just expose your own stupidity in the process. Give it up Eric.

> One of these days you are going to venture into print with some real
> beekeeping management issues instead of sniping at procedures second hand!
> You keep promising to correct in the "Scottish Beekeeper" the rubbish (your
> words!) that I have been writing over the years. I wait with bated breath for > your novel words of wisdom. Perhaps we could exchange ideas at the AGM –
> Saturday!

Once there is open debate people see for themselves who is spouting garbage and who talks sense. I should have banned you outright ages ago but letting you ramble on here opens people's eyes to what you are really like.

Gavin

[Jon]

Eric, I enjoy the banter and the windups as much as anyone but there is a point where it stops being funny and it starts looking like personal abuse or vendetta. You mate borderbeeman has the same problem and he recently got banned for one abusive comment too many on the bbka forum. He started whinging about the ban on beekeepingforum and got short shrift there as well. I noticed that he is posting around the internet that I am a paid stooge of the pesticide industry and that my profile on various beekeeping forums is bogus. You keep some nutty company Eric. 99% of those who read the bee forums are here to get a question answered, answer someones question, or generally find out more about beekeeping. If you feel strongly about pesticides, make your case with supporting evidence (in the appropriate thread) and leave the bile at home.
Re the imports, you were arguing a couple of weeks ago about about the benefits of hybrids. Gavin, as far as I know, has always argued in favour of keeping AMM areas free of other races, and I remember he had a legendary spat with Mike Roberts of Easybee over the thousands of Carnica queens he imports to the UK via Gloucester. You are completely wrong on that one and a big man would apologise. Every Uk and Irish beekeeper Association plus obviously Bibba has an anti import policy so that is one area where we are all singing from the same hymnsheet. Are you a member of Bibba? There is good advice and support there and the current quarterly magazine is full of stuff about genetics and inbreeding.

Re. the Irish list, I have only started making the odd post there in the last 6 months so you must me mixing me up with someone else.

Anyway, back to the (lack of) inbreeding:


Jon wrote:
The best way to test an area for drone isolation is to put out a few apideas (4 frame nuclei!) with virgins over the summer. If they fail to mate it would suggest your hypothesis is correct.
.................................................. .......................
This has already been done in the Clydebank area 3 years ago when I moved my garden colonies out!

What happened here? How many queens are we talking about? How far were your nucs from the nearest beekeeper? I presume the virgins all turned into drone layers after a while.
How do you know it was absence of drones rather that surfeit of weather.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
Gavin wrote elsewhere:
If Eric has extremist views on the racial purity of bees, that is his problem, not mine. As far as I am aware, his bees are mongrels anyway rather than pure-bred Amms. I have a 2,000 colony commercial beekeeper just up the road who imports bees (legally) from all over. That is his right. The forum we were on recently has people regularly buying in queens from Cyprus. Even my bees have a few in them with Buckfast traits,
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A ‘subtle’ change of heart and priorities as the mood suits? No condemnation of the importer’s morality! My views regarding imports since Varroa reared its ugly head in the 1970s has been steady as a rock!

Regarding Gavin’s denial of a pending honey bee inbreeding problem in Scotland; - perhaps Jon, as an arbiter might go back to the Irish Forum archives even as new member and check Eric McArthur’s very first salvo on that forum and Gavin’s reply!
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Jon wrote:
You are completely wrong on that one and a big man would apologise. Every Uk and Irish beekeeper Association plus obviously Bibba has an anti import policy so that is one area where we are all singing from the same hymnsheet.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::
Am I completely wrong? I said I have been anti import since the late 70s!

I was the main bee breeder in Scotland up until 1992 when Varroa was discovered in Devon. I was aware that beekeepers were the biggest vector for Varroa spread and did my bit by shutting up shop. Integrity!

I know how to breed bees! After a lapse of a month from the mating ‘critical’ I entered the nucs and disposed of the queens and inserted another frame of eggs and open brood and removed the nuclei to another site. The weather pattern was suitable for mating – mild, dry and windless!
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Jon wrote:
If you feel strongly about pesticides, make your case with supporting evidence (in the appropriate thread) and leave the bile at home.
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I am banking on Dr Connolly doing just that – if he were to be left in peace to get on with his research!

[Jon]

I know how to breed bees! After a lapse of a month from the mating ‘critical’ I entered the nucs and disposed of the queens and inserted another frame of eggs and open brood and removed the nuclei to another site. The weather pattern was suitable for mating – mild, dry and windless!!

As they say in Mexico, 'tantita paciencia. ' Actually they usually say 'tantita 'p*nche paciencia, guey' but we can't have profanity on the forum.
I had a couple of queens start to lay this year 6 weeks after hatching.
A friend lost the old queen from her colony in the last week of August in a supersedure and on 15th October there were still no eggs but I found a virgin in residence. She reported eggs and brood on 30th October which is 6-8 weeks.

Peter Edwards saw a queen returning to an Apidea in October when the temperature was 5c and he had a witness as well.
He mentioned that during his presentation at the UBKA conference a fortnight ago.
It's a pity you hadn't waited a while to see if they turned into drone layers as you are extrapolating from flimsy or non existent evidence.


Jon wrote:
You are completely wrong on that one and a big man would apologise. Every Uk and Irish beekeeper Association plus obviously Bibba has an anti import policy so that is one area where we are all singing from the same hymnsheet.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::
Am I completely wrong? I said I have been anti import since the late 70s!


A ‘subtle’ change of heart and priorities as the mood suits?

I am anti import as well. You are completely wrong about Gavin as he has taken a stand against imports on numerous occasions.
What Murray McG does is his own business and is perfectly legal and cannot be stopped under reciprocal free trade legislation. We may not be happy about that but there are other more winnable battles to fight.
Like I said, a big man knows when to apologise. You could do it via a PM if you don't want to lose face on the forum.


Regarding Gavin’s denial of a pending honey bee inbreeding problem in Scotland; - perhaps Jon, as an arbiter might go back to the Irish Forum archives even as new member and check Eric McArthur’s very first salvo on that forum and Gavin’s reply!

Sawing my own head off sounds like a more attractive proposition than trawling through your internet posting from years back.

[gavin]

.... but there is a point where it stops being funny and it starts looking like personal abuse or vendetta.

And Eric, very close to being the first on here to be told to pack his bags, continues:


A ‘subtle’ change of heart and priorities as the mood suits?

You know very well where that Buckfast influence came from, and you know why.

I'm really pleased to see that the forum has some life in it again, and that just about everyone is ignoring Eric. I suspect that is really what is needed - ignoring Eric. It must be plain by now that he is a lost cause.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Gavin
Gavin wrote: Post 37
Once there is open debate people see for themselves who is spouting garbage and who talks sense. I should have banned you outright ages ago but letting you ramble on here opens people's eyes to what you are really like.
.................................................. .....................
This works both ways!
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Gavin wrote: Post 41
You know very well where that Buckfast influence came from, and you know why.
.................................................. ..................
I was not referring to the Buckfast influence. I was referring to your statement pasted under, which if it had been made by a an ‘anti Import protagonist’ would have been qualified by a criticism at least!
Viz; . “I have a 2,000 colony commercial beekeeper just up the road who imports bees (legally) from all over. That is his right. The forum we were on recently has people regularly buying in queens from Cyprus”.

See you on Saturday – at the OK Corral?

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon
I was impressed with your stated intentions and track record regarding the propagation of nuclei and queens in post 36 – the current Clyde Area Bee Breeders Group are working to the same end – good, perhaps not quite native but near-native bees at sensible prices. The CABA Apiary Project in 2007 sold 5 – 5 frame nuclei at £75, in 2008, 6 nuclei at £85 at in 2009, 7, nuclei at £95. Your price of £100 is excellent! Would that there were more like minded folk!
The season in the West has started well despite the severe frosts in November, which surprisingly enough had no adverse effect on colonies which were strong and well fed going into the winter. The colony I have in my garden is on double brood boxes and the bees are covering 16 frames. The other colonies in the Group will be up on doubles by the end of March if the favourable weather continues – the snowdrop and crocus have done the bees proud this spring - for the first time in at least 5 years. If the Pussy Willow is as successfull as the early spring bloom was; this season in the West anyway has the making of a dream summer which could result in Nature attempting to redress the imbalance of past years and gifting the bees with a ‘swarm year’
Re tardy/non mating queens – West Dumbarton is a garden suburb – no honey bees had been seen in the gardens in area for around three summers!
A strain of bee which has a delayed mating instinct especially in a fine weather period or slow tardy laying trigger is not worth wasting time on, especially in the tight summer (sometimes - non summer in the West of Scotland scenario!) This situation could be an indication of low fecundity or reduced vitality!
Regarding: “.. contaminate genetically interesting stocks”. When for years you have been justifying commercial beekeeper imports of bees from out with the UK “.
I will hopefully discuss the above statement with Gavin on Saturday!

[gavin]

When for years you have been justifying commercial beekeeper imports of bees from out with the UK “.
I will hopefully discuss the above statement with Gavin on Saturday!

You are just likely to make yourself a laughing stock then Eric.

G.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All

Eric wrote:
I will hopefully discuss the above statement with Gavin on Saturday!
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Dr Ramsay replied:
You are just likely to make yourself a laughing stock then Eric.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;
Dr Ramsay wrote elsewhere:
As you are well aware, my opinion of Eric is not a good one. He seems incapable of exercising any reasonable kind of quality control over what he writes in magazines, in emails to colleagues, whatever. My latest rant to you over him was his naive, stupid, misleading nonsense on inbreeding in BKQ. He gets most things wrong, you know that. He does beekeeping a *disservice* with his writings.
Eric's opinion *does not matter*!! How can it, when he is wrong on just about everything?!
Eric - time for you to disappear. I think that you've done enough damage and to beekeeping in general for that matter.
.........................................
To parody the words of the song “Where have Scotland’s West Coast bees all gone”?

In Glasgow there is an expression which has connotations of Ramsay; the expression is “rammay”: Definition; “a verbal gutter level exchange of dialogue at the lowest intellectual level”, which seems to be Dr Ramsay’s interpretation of a discussion. It seems he wants a rammay (sorry discussion!) with Dr Connolly as well! It would seem that anyone who says words which Dr Ramsay does not agree with is in deep trouble.
The prose pasted above was ‘vomited’ by Dr Ramsay some years ago.
Long before the Forum was even a glint in his eye.
I have been waiting patiently for his measured rebuttals of my offending prose, which to this day he has never identified in any way, of which there is some 35 years worth, spread over Bee Craft, Glasgow Herald, The Scotsman, Schweizerische Bienen Zeitung, Deutsches Bienen Journal, The Beekeepers’ Quarterly (my work is so rubbishy that I was asked by John Phipps, the editor of BKQ to be one of the contributors to the 100th issue of that magazine, and I felt deeply honoured to have been asked!) and of course the Scottish Beekeeper, which has carried my work constantly since 1969.
As an aside; apart from regurgitated Bee Diseases prose I have only seen one letter by Dr Ramsay in all the years I have been reading the Scottish Beekeeper and sadly he did not even get that right; getting ‘Varroa’’ and ‘bees’ confused. August 2008, Scottish Beekeeper, page 208, left hand column 4th line up from foot of column – he has Varroa affecting its own fertility – instead of the bee. I ask you?
Dr Ramsay further compounds his folly and need to rubbish the writer of the article (no prizes!) by insinuating that article should never have been accepted because Dr Anderson, the researcher concerned, expressed confidence that the pheromone which triggers the mite’s egg laying will be found;
One scientific opinion against another, June 2008, Scottish Beekeeper page 151 right hand column, twelve lines up from foot of page!
Dr Ramsay should be so critical of my prose!! Glass houses and stones come to mind.
Be warned guys and gals don’t ever disagree with the boss! He got a lady who disagreed with him on the Irish forum banned a couple of years ago!

[Jon]

C'mon Eric. You have plenty to contribute, but this spat with Gavin is tedious in the extreme.
Why don't you leave the personal stuff behind and just make your case about beekeeping issues.
I think people are genuinely interested in debate about pesticides, inbreeding and your other hobby horses, but the arguments have to stand on their own merit irrespective of the past editorial policy of the Scottish Beekeeper magazine.
It should be possible to debate the issues without getting so het up.
Anyone who thinks they are so all knowing that they are beyond challenge is kidding himself.

I have seen this all before with the likes of Mike Bispham, Good ol' Graham and Uncle Phil Chandler. As soon as anyone raises an eyebrow re. false logic the toys go straight out of the pram. Stick to the arguments eric and anyone reading this forum will make their own judgement about who knows what they are talking about.

[gavin]

This has to stop. Eric, you're done here. Jon is right that Eric has things to offer us and has a wealth of experience, but we can't have the atmosphere of the forum being dragged down by such bile.

The stuff he quoted above was a private email in 2008 from me to a friend who he had upset, and I was sympathising with him.

The Bee Keepers Quarterly article mentioned was the one in which Eric revealed to the world that the csd locus in 10 colonies would have 160 alleles rather than the usually accepted number of 19 and that a small number of halvings and doublings of the apiary stock would leave the apiary doomed. You can find it here, where, it seems, I was being castigated as a 'dogmatist'.

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/archives/quality.htm

It was nonsense then and it is nonsense now. Jon thought that he had managed to teach Eric the true position, but it seems that was a temporary phenomenon.

Time to move on. Eric will have to find another way to entertain himself now.

[Rosie]

How about a little change in direction?

I have just read a very interesting piece about genetic research in mammals. The research was done with mice but it is expected that the same effect will be shown in humans. Basically it seems that identical genes inherited from the male and female parents work differently depending on the particular parent it came from A gene called Grb10 works on the brain if inherited from the male and on the body when inherited from the female.

The link is here: www.bath.ac.uk/news/2011/01/26/imprinting/ (http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/2011/01/26/imprinting/)

People often say that certain bee traits are inherited from the drone and others are inherited from the female. I have always assumed that this theory was a load of tosh and used as an excuse to blame bad behaviour on drones when exotic races turn nasty after a couple of generations. The same nastiness is seen in a local queen when mated with exotic drones. Perhaps there is more to the theory than I had thought.

All the best

Rosie

[gavin]

How about a little change in direction?


I'm all for that!

Though one line in the article made me wonder ...

> “Asserting your dominance over others in your social group can be risky behaviour, and this gene appears to keep that behaviour in check.

Stop it, Gavin.

Anyway, interesting stuff. Yes, there may well be implications for bee behaviour too. One other possibility that amounts to much the same thing in terms of outcomes is that there could be an interaction between what is in the nucleus and what is in the cytoplasm (mitochondria in particular). Cross female A with male B and you get a hybrid in terms of chromosomes but in a cytoplasm that comes only from the mother. Do the cross the other way and the same nuclear hybrid sits in the cytoplasm of the male parent. These nuclear-cytoplasmic interactions in plants can give male sterility, and that is the basis of some F1 hybrid production systems.

The bottom line is that a cross made one way may behave differently from a cross the other, and for different reasons. In theory, for example, a Carniolan beekeeper might have crosses with local Amm that end up still peaceable, and the local Amm keepers might end up with essentially similar hybrids that end up nasty. In theory. At which point I should ask whether anyone has knowledge of this kind of thing - different outcomes of bee crosses in different directions.

[Jon]

Ruttner did work on the crosses in both directions between bee races and recorded different percentages of increased aggression.
It's in that chapter he edited in Dadant - the hive and the honey bee.

[gavin]

Markedly different? (Don't have Dadant, a sorry state of affairs for one who pretended to be knowledgeable on bee matters .... )

[Jon]

The following refers to increased honey production according to Ruttner

Mellifera * Carnica 31 %
Carnica * mellifera 33% (very aggressive)

Ligustica * carnica 70% (aggresive)
carnica * Ligustica 10% (gentle)

He says : In crossbreeding not all the strains of two races show the same beneficial heterosis effect. The specific combining ability has to be tested in every single case. Another difficulty in crossbreeding lies in the development of unfavourabable characteristics in many cases. The extraordinary vigourous and hardy hybrids (mellifera * carnica) are very aggressive.