todays news

[alancooper]

saw red pollen this afternoon
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5273/14266380747_9b5be69ec2_m.jpg
I have been looking at pollen loads from my hives for a couple of years to get some idea of what by bees are using throughout the year. For comparison I have collected directly from the main plant species in the local flora.
I have never seen red pollen at this time of year (we do not have Field scabious in Fermanagh) but I do know that you can get strange colours from mixed loads brought in by the bees. Rose-bay willowherb (fire-weed) has purple pollen and is still being brought in here - if was mixed with a light-grey coloured pollen could it give a reddish hue? Another possibility is a garden plant.

[Calluna4u]

I have been looking at pollen loads from my hives for a couple of years to get some idea of what by bees are using throughout the year. For comparison I have collected directly from the main plant species in the local flora.
I have never seen red pollen at this time of year (we do not have Field scabious in Fermanagh) but I do know that you can get strange colours from mixed loads brought in by the bees. Rose-bay willowherb (fire-weed) has purple pollen and is still being brought in here - if was mixed with a light-grey coloured pollen could it give a reddish hue? Another possibility is a garden plant.

Not a garden plant for sure, it has been coming in in several locations, indeed ALL the lowland locations. Willowherb here is finished, and here the pollen from it is a dull blue colour. Not been getting any of that for some time. Scabious is a common plant around here, but it is also largely finished, and in any case not enough of it for hundreds of pollen loads daily into each of up to 84 nucs on a site. Its has noticeably sharply tailed off and today I have not seen any of the red stuff. It was a deep rich red, not dissimilar to the pollen load on the scabious bee illustrated by Gavin, and the loads were totally uniform in shade. If it IS scabious I am amazed at the amount they were getting. Must be a lot more of it about than I thought. Gavin: lol...Jolanta is being kept very busy with serious work, and has not been given time by her cruel boss to go messing around with microscopes!

Was feeding some of the mature colonies at a place near Glamis this morning and the distinctive phacelia pollen greatly in evidence. Saw the farmer on the way out and he was very proud of his phacelia field, part of which he had mown, and it all came up again and maybe a quarter of the filed in flower again now. Did not have the heart to tell him there had been no bees there for the main flowering as they were all away at the heather wasting their time. Still nectar coming in today. Will try to upload a picture later of what the bees had done to the foundation.

[Calluna4u]

Here at the southern end of the Spey the heather is still in bloom, patches of it still quite strong and the bees are still working hard bringing in pollen as well, mainly yellow not red.

Nice to hear. Our bees at Ralia and further down near Ruthven Barracks are also bringing yellow pollen. I thought it late for tormentil but sure, there is still some around, also ragwort in abundance, plus hawkweed(?) in most places. The cream/off white coloured heather pollen also still coming in plentifully. Some parts at Rothiemurchus the heather is still very vibrant and not far past peak flower.

As for your bees in July being 'a bit nippy'..... this was commonplace this year as they conditions were so much against them and all the nectar sources were running terribly late. No doubt a flow sorted that little problem out.

[Bridget]

Nice to hear. Our bees at Ralia and further down near Ruthven Barracks are also bringing yellow pollen. I thought it late for tormentil but sure, there is still some around, also ragwort in abundance, plus hawkweed(?) in most places. The cream/off white coloured heather pollen also still coming in plentifully. Some parts at Rothiemurchus the heather is still very vibrant and not far past peak flower.
Are they your bees on the moor before the Tromie Bridge? That's about a mile from us as the crow flys.
I planted some free meadow seeds early in the summer and some of those have been flowering like mad for about 6 weeks and that's where the yellow pollen is coming from. I must look up tormentil and hawkweed. There are still lots of little flowers around like little cornflowers and some small white forest flowers. although this area is late to get started in spring, once it does there is masses with the Insh marshes, clovers etc and the trees. I don't seem to get a gap in forage at all.
I want to move on and get the supers off but if the heather is still so in flower next weekend I might have to delay. I wondered if the lack of rain might now be hindering the nectar flow from the heather blossom?



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[Calluna4u]

Are they your bees on the moor before the Tromie Bridge? That's about a mile from us as the crow flys.
I planted some free meadow seeds early in the summer and some of those have been flowering like mad for about 6 weeks and that's where the yellow pollen is coming from. I must look up tormentil and hawkweed. There are still lots of little flowers around like little cornflowers and some small white forest flowers. although this area is late to get started in spring, once it does there is masses with the Insh marshes, clovers etc and the trees. I don't seem to get a gap in forage at all.
I want to move on and get the supers off but if the heather is still so in flower next weekend I might have to delay. I wondered if the lack of rain might now be hindering the nectar flow from the heather blossom?
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Yes indeed. We have a smallish group there every year, and there is a bigger group about half a mile from there up in the forest.

For the last two weeks at least the bees have only been 'filling in down' due to lack of bee power remaining.

Those bees have done ok (ish) this year, but further back down the A9 nearer to Dalwhinnie, the heather was even later, and the bees had nothing much at all when I last looked at them a couple of weeks back, and I do not expect to see any change in that. This has been a weird year.

I appreciate that there is a lot of minor flora up there and at low densities colonies can self maintain in the gap times, but this year the weather was so dire, and the heather so late, that the bees that went up for the bell heather got nil for 7 weeks, which plays havoc with their welfare.

The nectar coming in today I referred to is balsam on the low ground. I will ask my team who are working up near Braemar today if there is any nectar, but they will be working up the A9 from some time later on this coming week.

ps...It is not too dry....but sun elevation allied to cold mornings and short day length mean a lot less heather nectar will be available than three or four weeks back. NEVER seen any significant nectar from heather this late.

[Emma]

Mine have been bringing in mid-blue pollen for the last week or two. Lots of it, big round loads, don't think I've ever seen it before. After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?

[gavin]

After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?

C4U's bees near Glamis have been - see the post above. It has been such a dismal summer that lots of plants have been flowering later than normal, or maybe a farmer cut his Phacelia and the regrowth is flowering as in the example above.

[Calluna4u]

Mine have been bringing in mid-blue pollen for the last week or two. Lots of it, big round loads, don't think I've ever seen it before. After a brief google, I think there must be a field of phacelia nearby - is anyone else getting that just now?

Sounds like some late willowherb to me, or perhaps a minor pollen source of local significance. Phacelia is more a purple, depending on how the light strikes it it can look vivid dark purple to almost a slate purple, close to black. Once you see it in the combs you never forget it or mistake it for anything else of any importance.

[fatshark]

United two colonies last weekend. One super-strong, queenright and hunky dory, one with a failed queen. She was present but far from correct, with no sign of eggs, larvae or brood. She was removed and I did a standard uniting over newspaper. This Saturday I checked them. About 80% of the newspaper had gone and pollen was being taken in. The Q was in the bottom box and laying well. The bees in the top box had raised a single fat queen cell they were in the process of capping. The weather had been stunning all week, but we're expecting rain and low temps from tomorrow.

Firstly, there's not a drone to be seen in this colony and far too late to expect the Q to get mated. Secondly, they must have 'pinched' an egg from the bottom box within a day or so after uniting (no sign of laying workers and the Q hasn't ventured upstairs).

I ripped the cell down. I assume that they'd have done the same thing if the weather turned, but didn't want to risk it. What were they thinking?

[greengumbo]

Hives back from heather on Sunday - 3 hives and 4 supers of ling in total.

What next ! I cant extract it for a wee while so pondering whether to remove to a warm room and store or to leave it on the hives until I need it. Only downside I would like to get feeding these hives ASAP now the weather is about to change.

I think removal but any advice ?

[fatshark]

No experience here with heather honey greengumbo ... however, I regularly remove supers and keep them warm before extracting. Works a treat. This year they were stacked on my warming cabinet for nearly a fortnight.

What d'you mean "about to change" ... it's horrible and wet here already. I fear the himalayan balsam party is over :(

[Calluna4u]

Will try to upload a picture later of what the bees had done to the foundation.

2439

Langstroth comb built from foundation last week....picture taken 2nd October.......You can see the open patch in the centre, that is full of eggs. This was a sheet of foundation when last seen about 20th September.

[Emma]

Sounds like some late willowherb to me, or perhaps a minor pollen source of local significance. Phacelia is more a purple, depending on how the light strikes it it can look vivid dark purple to almost a slate purple, close to black. Once you see it in the combs you never forget it or mistake it for anything else of any importance.

Definitely not as dark as that.
There's a deep bluey turquoise pollen with a distinctive hint of glitter to it that I see every year. I've always thought that that was willowherb. Willowherb used to be a major late nectar source around my Aberdeenshire out apiary - one of the few things flowering in the agri-desert, and I saw a lot of loads of that pollen there.
Of course I could be wrong! Either way, this blue stuff is very different, and I've not seen it before. Doesn't sound at all like phacelia, from your description. Another beekeeping mystery :-)

[Calluna4u]

24402441

To illustrate the practice (that surprises some as it is against all the text books) of September/October comb replacement.

This colony was left with 5 old combs and 6 of foundation when it came off the moors last week. It was one of 84 in the wintering site, and most are the similar (maybe 25% are smaller) having 4 to 7 of foundation added. They were fed on 30th September at which time they were sitting with the foundation more or less untouched and the cluster looking ok and on about 7 bars (you get a lot of bees in a small space on foundation). This picture was taken on 4th October.

You can see the bees are now right across the box, and the single frame shown was the extreme right one as you look at the hive, so against the side wall. Note that there is zero drone comb drawn. All 6 of foundation are fully drawn, all perfect. As you can see it works a treat. The feed is 10 litres of invert syrup and is enough to see them through to spring.

Still got about 10 days of a window yet in the wooden hives for this job, but most of the rest of the month in poly.

[Calluna4u]

Definitely not as dark as that.
There's a deep bluey turquoise pollen with a distinctive hint of glitter to it that I see every year. I've always thought that that was willowherb. Willowherb used to be a major late nectar source around my Aberdeenshire out apiary - one of the few things flowering in the agri-desert, and I saw a lot of loads of that pollen there.
Of course I could be wrong! Either way, this blue stuff is very different, and I've not seen it before. Doesn't sound at all like phacelia, from your description. Another beekeeping mystery :-)

Love the 'hint of glitter' image, but apart from that you are spot on with the deep turquoise description. Sounds like another ID job for Gavin.

[gavin]

Langstroth comb built from foundation last week....picture taken 2nd October.......You can see the open patch in the centre, that is full of eggs. This was a sheet of foundation when last seen about 20th September.

That comb has amber nectar/honey. Doesn't look like balsam - could it be Japanese knotweed? Or is it heather getting mixed in?

[gavin]

Love the 'hint of glitter' image, but apart from that you are spot on with the deep turquoise description. Sounds like another ID job for Gavin.


Yup, rosebay willowherb has that coarse surface that comes from having gigantic pollen grains.

Emma's blue pollen. I'm sure that I've posted this cracking picture before - Phacelia pollen showing the vivid Royal blue colour. From this blog:
http://trogtrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/borage-for-forage.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mIJfdLwUYvM/U9F3kR_SzjI/AAAAAAAAAds/OnRXGds02XE/s1600/IMG_1330.JPG

[gavin]

Recently back from tonight's East of Scotland Beekeepers meeting (OK, I've been doing a tax return for an hour and a half) where Magnus entertained us with tales from the CSI Pollen project. Tony, one of our beginners, brought in a sample of some honey he's just harvested. He obtained one of these cracking ESBA 5-frame nuclei in late July, put it in a Swienty National, fed it as instructed, and once it had filled its box put on a super. The super is now stuffed with bees and pretty much full of capped honey.

It isn't heather, it isn't Himalayan balsam. Could it be Japanese knotweed? A mid amber colour, pleasant taste, maybe a bit nutty or with a hint of molasses, rather thick consistency but not jelly-like. The bees were flying down the hill towards the edge of the estuary and had no particular pollen patterns.

[Calluna4u]

Might be just an artifact of the photo. I do not recall it being amber. More a straw colour. Only Japanese knotweed honey I have seen was a very deep colour, similar to classic bell heather, though maybe a bit redder.

Ditto your phacelia shot.....it is more blue and less purple than any I have seen, though it is very variable depending a lot on how the light strikes it.


Correction to the above...day after posting this message. The problem in not the phacelia photo, it is the colour settings on my laptop. Today on my office desktop the colours are just fine, very typical phacelia photo.

As regards the other photo having amber honey? Well I have decided after a further check and seeing the surprising area of young brood in the hive, that it was caused by them opening up the centre combs of stores they were left with and moving honey around, hence it will be a balsam/syrup/ling mixture you are seeing in the picture.

Gavin....your last post about the mid amber honey? We were getting a small yet noticeable flow of honeydew at Star Inn and Mains of Gray before the bees went off to the heather, and sounds a bit like your sample described. Some was treacly in taste, other hives it was more a butterscotch taste. So tasty in fact my staff were bringing combs back to base.........grrrr. lol. There was even more of it in the Hereford area.

[Emma]

Yup, rosebay willowherb has that coarse surface that comes from having gigantic pollen grains.

Emma's blue pollen. I'm sure that I've posted this cracking picture before - Phacelia pollen showing the vivid Royal blue colour. From this blog:
http://trogtrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/borage-for-forage.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mIJfdLwUYvM/U9F3kR_SzjI/AAAAAAAAAds/OnRXGds02XE/s1600/IMG_1330.JPG

Royal blue. Yes, that's the phrase I was hunting for. And the photo looks like what I was seeing on the varroa boards...

...until it had lain in the rain for a while, by which time it had turned darker and more purple. So now I'm pretty confident it's phacelia, from both descriptions. Thanks!

Academic question at the moment, of course. Rain over Fife, bees staying indoors, woodwork soaked :-(

[gavin]

They'll be back out today though! My experiences yesterday in Fife are recounted below :). Thanks C4U, I hadn't considered honeydew as the stuff I have seen has been darker. OK, I'll ask Tony for a sample and I *will* get the microscope out some time over winter to see if that helps. Glad to have the colour issue explained though.

Yesterday was the day to reclaim the last of the hives at the heather. An early start, then a tour round to drop them back at the three sites they came from. A soaking wet, slippy, greasy autumn day and with a challenging schedule to get to Ayr in time to give a talk at the beekeeping association there. Thankfully I had a retired engineer with me, a man who knows a thing or two about getting vehicles out of tricky situations. At site two there was a relatively simple manoevre to drive forward then reverse into a lane behind a walled garden. Hmmn, it was squelchy and I was losing grip. OK, reverse, reverse!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD-fPb87mVA

Let's try to crash on through the verge to get back up this lane. Bad move. There was a brick-lined hole in the grass I hadn't noticed before and the back offside wheel dropped down into it leaving the van resting on the chassis with no chance of any traction at all. Bugger! Still, Jeff knows how to sort things. We commandeered (thanks Alan) a mini-tractor and driver but it couldn't lift the back of Vera the Van (blame my nieces for the name) on its own. However Jeff isn't a man to be defeated easily and constructed a lever using a piece of timber borrowed from builders nearby and a pile of bricks. One lever up, I slipped a brick under the wheel, down went the lever and a brick went on the pivot point. Another lever and another brick under the wheel. Off with the lever and another brick on the pivot point. Magic! Before long I was able to drive out of the hole whilst Alan used the mini-tractor to give me the necessary helping push. I don't think the Ayr beekeepers knew how close they were to losing the evening's entertainment.

Will I do it again? Probably! I have a habit of repeating my mistakes.

[Greengage]

Talking of diferent colours I came across this article, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/nyregion/30bigcity.html?_r=2

[Adam]

I have a rope in the back of my car so I can pull my (19 year old) son's car out of a field (again) when I need to. I've taught him how to tie a bowline - he says that it's something that he should have been taught at school for such an eventuality! Practical education for a teenage boy. Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.

[SDM]

Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.

If he'd applied them he might have known that the field was too soft to support his car.

[gavin]

Logarithums and Archimedes Principle don't work when your car is stuck.

Archimedes worked for me! Although Archimedes wouldn't have invented it, can't see Stonehenge being erected without levers.

https://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Lever/aristotle/moving_lever.gif

[Adam]

I can still recite Archimedes Principle from when I learned it at school.
"Whenever an object is wholly or partially immersed in a fluid ....."

For today's news:- It's dull & cold. Feels like Autumn has arrived.

[Feckless Drone]

Ivy nectar on tap here in Dundee. Great to see and with the good spell of weather then has to be a big plus for the winter. Now - the only question is how well were those Qs mated?

[gavin]

To the extent of putting something into supers, or just toppping up brood box stores? One year I was enticed into putting a super on a colony working ivy but the flow stopped before they used it. That was in the countryside to the west of you, perhaps the prospects are better in town. Interesting all the same. Ivy flows used to be a thing found only in the far SW (see Ted Hooper's book for example) but seem to have spread north and east some way.

[Jon]

They can fill a super if they get the weather for a week or so but that rarely happens.
Certainly plenty of pollen and nectar arriving at the moment.
My queens are all laying again and a lot had stopped in September.
Nice to see the bees so active. I was getting worried that there would be a shortage of young bees to overwinter but things look better now.

[Feckless Drone]

To the extent of putting something into supers, or just toppping up brood box stores?

I am not going to do that - supers all tidied away, and Varroa treatments still in play so I'll just leave alone. I was tempted to go through my colonies to see what the Qs are doing but chickened out. I was happy enough to think (delude myself) that they would have started laying again with lots of healthy bees to see them through winter. Jon's just confirmed my delusion. Last year Qs seemed to shut down early and I don't recall such an extended period of good weather in the late summer into autumn.

[greengumbo]

Mine were piling in with pollen on sunday. All hives very busy :)

It was a dirty brown yellow colour so I assume Ivy. Good to see !

[Calluna4u]

Ivy nectar on tap here in Dundee. Great to see and with the good spell of weather then has to be a big plus for the winter. Now - the only question is how well were those Qs mated?

Was out feeding yesterday morning (at the time you were making that post) at Gray house just outside Dundee, a place with relatively abundant ivy (nothing compared to the amounts further south). Only a few plants are in flower, most still in tight bud. Most colonies were clustered and not a lot of bee flight. There was more activity later in the day at Star Inn, but only a minor amount of pollen being carried. Nice to see and a *fairly* reliable indication of queenright status. No smell so no significant ivy nectar. It has a powerful smell so you know if anything significant is going on. Not even close to warm enough, but the next day or two, with a bit of Fohn effect in play especially east of the Highlands, might give things a chance.

[alancooper]

Flowering generally is about two weeks late here. My apiary records over the last five years in Fermanagh, show that ivy can start from the second week in Sept to the first week in October. This year most is currently still in tight bud but there has been a lot of pollen and nectar brought in for about a week now, with forage searching probably helped by the calm weather.

[Calluna4u]

Its a strange old year.

Feeding 86 hives west of Perth yesterday afternoon not far from the River Earn. The bee flight on arrival was remarkable for the time of year and still loads of 'ghost bees' coming in with or without the dusted bodies but abundant cream coloured pollen. Also a significant number with either orange pollen or the dull yellow of ivy (must be going a long way for that, little nearby). It was so intense and so much fanning and dancing going on that I could not resist a look in a couple of the broodboxes. Brood in all stages, though not on more than a couple of frames, but good to see with all the concerns about worked out bees going into winter, but absolutely zero nectar.

Then I got the very odd phone call.

A swarm. Its the 21st of October for heavens sake. It was my son who knows a swarm when he sees one, and this one had landed on the windscreen wipers of a Unimog he was working on, and was splattered all over the windscreen. 'Have you just parked it somewhere daft and the flying bees are getting disorientated?' I asked. 'No, it is 50 yards from the nearest hives, AND I can see the queen,' he replied. It was actually a very small swarm when I checked it later, but yes it has a nice large queen in it.

It was at our mating apiary, where not all the boxes have been tidied away yet and some still have bees in them. Suspect that after the last queen harvest one of the boxes has raised a queen of its own, that she then mated and laid, and has become overcrowded and absconded. Very odd anyway. Did not intend to do anything with it as not really interested in late mated queens produced after all the good stock is drone free, reliant on drones from the 'defectives', but it has been stuck into a Kieller and fed, just to see what happens.

[Jon]

Could it have been one of the events I described on another thread where the queen is out on a mating flight or some activity associated with mating, accompanied by workers? What I have seen involves the queen and workers settling like a mini swarm. What temperature did you have yesterday? Was it warm enough for a mating flight to take place? Some parts of East Scotland were around 20c yesterday.

[Calluna4u]

No idea. I know it was quite warm in sheltered spots yesterday but it was pretty windy. There was no mating sign on the queen and no drones with the swarmlet. Took it away today, as despite a minimal entrance being left it was being attacked by wasps this morning after the syrup in feed compartment.

[gavin]

There is a pleasing level of warmth across two, three or four frames in the Paynes nucs at the moment. Most of them should be good for the winter (if it isn't too severe). Many are slowly using up the deluge of syrup applied recently but a few have had drained it completely. Perhaps those ones are being robbed quietly, when I'm not looking.

One colony free-hanging in a small tree was transferred (with Emma's help, thanks!) on Tuesday into a Paynes nuc box. The whole thing was on one main branch, so we just snipped it to top bar size and put across the frame rests and placed an eke on top to accommodate the bow in the branch. It is now taking feed. Shame on me, I reckon it was a July swarm of mine that I thought had departed into the distance but in fact had set up home in the open on a small tree nearby.

Still pollen coming in, still holding off applying mouse guards to the wooden hives.

Time to go through the notes, work out what went well and what didn't, and dream of how many full colonies I may have next spring when the nucs move up to full boxes.

[fatshark]

Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed ... better late than never.
2442
Being stuffed with stores these colonies were a doddle to move on my own in the dark over a rather rickety bridge ...
Not ;)

[gavin]

Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed ... better late than never.
2442
Being stuffed with stores these colonies were a doddle to move on my own in the dark over a rather rickety bridge ...
Not ;)

Lovely shed :).

Give me a call next time and I'll ..... lend you my sack barrow? Naw! Come and give a hand. Even though that IBC is now completely drained (!) I'm often over your way.

I see that you've upgraded Fife to Finest. Glad you're settling in nicely.

G.

[Feckless Drone]

Finally got my first couple of colonies into my bee shed

It is quite a shed! I'm thinking that the major advantage has to be no more dropping the Q into the grass. My forte.

[fatshark]

It is quite a shed!

I deliberately left the fridge and kettle out of sight to avoid shed-envy ;) There's a bit of space left for the armchair.

Thanks for the offer Gavin ... I used my (t)rusty hivebarrow Buster (https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5180/5398834082_811e0c060a.jpg) (NSFW, or anywhere else) to move the colonies. I'll give you the grand tour once things are settled. The other thing out of sight in the photo is the end of the hose connected to the back of your IBC ;)

[gwizzie]

Very nice David, where's the bracket for the 40" Tv ? LOL. How many hives you planning keeping in there ???

[fatshark]

Up to four full colonies and two nucs. Any more than that and I'd have to move the jacuzzi.

[prakel]

Nice piece @ approx 09:20 on Ron Brown and his (lack of) viruses:

Inside Out South West 26/10/15

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0071mt5

[Mellifera Crofter]

Nice piece @ approx 09:20 on Ron Brown and his (lack of) viruses: ...

Interesting Prakel. It's Ron Hoskins - not Brown.
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Interesting Prakel. It's Ron Hoskins - not Brown.
Kitta

Yes unfortunately Ron Brown is gone now but his books live on
He was one of the first to discover varroa in the UK

[prakel]

I wouldn't worry too much about a slip by a less than well prakel, it's the content of the video which is interesting and really does deserve to be watched before iplayer takes it down. Should probably have posted it in Jon's grooming thread but chose not to as it is a transient link which won't be available in a month's time.

[Wmfd]

I wouldn't worry too much about a slip by a less than well prakel, it's the content of the video which is interesting and really does deserve to be watched before iplayer takes it down. Should probably have posted it in Jon's grooming thread but chose not to as it is a transient link which won't be available in a month's time.

Thanks Prakel, very interesting. It wasn't clear to me why the presence of one virus would crowd out another, but then I can't claim to be a virologist. The balance of one virus against another, if that is what is going on, might explain why varroa resistance has sometimes struggled to be retained, as presumably treatment and other movements might disrupt any balance that does exist.

[Wmfd]

Checked around the hives today, removed feeders and set things ready for the winter. I've even managed to move the swarm that moved into a horrible old brood box I'd been using as a wax melter - box and all moved to an out apiary.

Very picturesque mist as we drove up to drop off that colony. Mist laying to a depth of about 5-6ft across the fens, with just the trees sticking out above it.

All the hives look like they have a good number of bees, so fingers crossed for better wintering than last year. I've dropped the most exposed site and so all bees are at sites where I've had successful overwintering in the past. These are all sites with some protection from the wind.

Not a lot else I can do now!

David

[gavin]

Not a lot else I can do now!


Keep reading SBAi? :p

The virus work in the video cited by Prakel has been published here:

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015186a.html

Very interesting. The mechanism favoured by the authors seems to be direct exclusion of one (the virulent) form by the other (a non-virulent form) at the cellular level. However there could be other explanations based on population dynamics in this three-way relationship of bee-mite-virus.

Maybe I should wait until a *real* virologist comments?!

Good on Chris Packham for saving Ron's blushes by saying that his work is still valid. Keeping mite numbers down by these hygienic and grooming traits may be part of the story, perhaps allowing colonies to get by which then permits changes in viral populations.

I wonder whether the Scottish Ron is still maintaining non-treated colonies? Heard he'd been poorly.

[Wmfd]

Keep reading SBAi? :p

Of course, if it's like last winter, then I'll read lots and plan all manner of things for next year that in reality will be overtaken by life, work etc!

I think I need to retire ;)


The virus work in the video cited by Prakel has been published here:

http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015186a.html

Very interesting. The mechanism favoured by the authors seems to be direct exclusion of one (the virulent) form by the other (a non-virulent form) at the cellular level. However there could be other explanations based on population dynamics in this three-way relationship of bee-mite-virus.

Maybe I should wait until a *real* virologist comments?!

Good on Chris Packham for saving Ron's blushes by saying that his work is still valid. Keeping mite numbers down by these hygienic and grooming traits may be part of the story, perhaps allowing colonies to get by which then permits changes in viral populations.

I wonder whether the Scottish Ron is still maintaining non-treated colonies? Heard he'd been poorly.

Thanks Gavin, there is certainly a lot of detail in there, one for a proper read.

I agree, Chris Packham was very balanced on the mechanisms involved, and it could well be that the pulling out of infected larvae etc is contributing to the mix. I thought that Ron had selected for evidence of varroa damage and larvae removal, so presumably those are still occuring.

What I couldn't tell from a quick skim was whether the type A/B split was the cause of the varroa resistance or a result. Especially given the comment that Type B dominance on Big Island came before what was expected to be a die off as a result of varroa. :confused:

All very confusing, we need someone who understands these sort of analyses to help us through it, someone who has written scientific papers perhaps ....!

David

[nemphlar]

Can it be that instead of a queen from Ron we need some of his varroa to inoculate our bees strange turn, enjoyed the programme thanks P

[The Drone Ranger]

Took a chicken to the vet (green poo digestive infection) and he gave the bird a treatment administered orally
Not designed to kill the bad bacteria but to displace it with healthy bacteria in the gut

p.s. Not the same as pro-biotic yoghurt which is just a marketing scam to sell you poo extract mixed with yoghurt in a tiny bottle and a high price

[Feckless Drone]

Well, yesterday's news. 1 Nov was a better forage day than anything in June. Checked out some eucalyptus - covered with bees. Pollen, tad more yellow than Ivy. Both going into my hives. Although the gum trees in Dundee always flower in autumn this is the first time I've actually seen bees working them.

2444

[Kate Atchley]

Glorious day yesterday and pollen being taken into the hives, lots of bees flying. There's eucalyptus and ivy for them down at Glenborrodale. Such a relief to see the colonies strong again after *those months* of running on empty.

[Jon]

Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.

[Calluna4u]

Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.

Not seen brood in any quantity in the main hives for weeks now, though we had it in the nucs that had never been on the high ground.

A lot of brood now would, superficially at least, give good young bees to help the colony through to spring, but I would also find it worrying, both for the stores consumption reason you give, and for the implications regarding the varroa population going into winter. I have seen them just tear out and dump really late brood when weather turns against them, so it can also end up just wasted effort that actually sets them back a bit.

Bees carrying quite a lot of pollen yesterday, and all that are in the position of still getting their winter feed are taking it down fine unless they are undersize in which case it is getting a bit late now. Still got about 600 to bring in off the hill (all cleared now, so its just bring and feed) but hope to be done by weekend. They look generally in better condition than I feared in September, but it is not yet clear how much 'age' the late heather flow has put onto the wintering bees. Still quite concerned.

Should have all the winter feeding completed in wooden hives (with a poly feeder for warmth) by Wednesday, and the poly hives by the end of next week. from past experience its only the likely duds that fai8l to take surup in a poly hive before mid Nov. so we should still be fine.


Also, been asked for a resume of the heather season by a few people. We are still extracting and will be for some time yet but we have a good idea of performance by area.
Deeside and adjacent glens were very poor east of Ballater. West of Ballater it got gradually better on Ling sites but remained poor on the high bell locations. First two weeks 0f September brought honey in the range between Ballater and Braemar but side glens remained very patchy.
Up the A9 it was ok really north of Newtonmore, but very poor south of that down to Dalwhinnie. Some places off the main valley did quite well in the context of the season and brought a near normal crop albeit every scrap of it after 27th August and mostly from 5th to 20th September.
West Perthshire stayed poor with only two locations from 7 getting much at all, again all was in September. This area was seriously hurt by the dearth in July and August and the colonies declined terribly so our experience there may not match that of others who kept their bees on the low ground and fed them, only bringing them up once flowering began.

No Bell heather honey at all this year, its all ling of a very high purity. Overall crop on the heather is going to end up at 60 to 65% of long term average, varying from 25% of normal around Dinnet and Amulree to about 80% of normal around Braemar, Kingussie and Aviemore.

[The Drone Ranger]

Most of my colonies are full of brood again.
I pulled a frame from a colony yesterday and it had been laid up with eggs.
It will be great to have those young bees going into winter but will need to keep an eye on the stores.
If the weather turns colder and they stop foraging shortly there will be a lot of mouths to feed.

You need bees to reduce the water content in stores though so it might be a good thing
When they get all the feed at the same time and end up with no broodnest that might be worse

[Jon]

Mine were largely broodless in September but the ivy and the mild weather has kick started them again.
I have a dozen or so queens in apideas and those ones are still laying as well.
The mites levels are always a worry but I got shot of most of them in August and September with Apiguard treatment.
Mite levels in some of my colonies were dangerously high when I sampled in July.

[Feckless Drone]

Should have all the winter feeding completed in wooden hives (with a poly feeder for warmth) by Wednesday, and the poly hives by the end of next week. and resume of the heather season

C4U - interesting for many reasons. You are feeding much later than I am, I completed that by end Sept for some, start of Oct for the rest. My feeding is carried out over 2-3 weeks, not all in one go but with a small quantity followed by a couple of large feeds, but I still suspect I run the risk of clogging up the hive and maybe not leaving enough room for late brood rearing.

I took my bees up to the heather later then you do, but did not feed. The forage for them was pretty good in early Aug- and I had supers on so frames just got moved over to other colonies and thin foundation put on for the heather-bound hives. Because the forage was good the Qs had picked up laying but I thought a bit late to get lots of bees of a foraging age but they seemed to do OK towards the end of the heather. The heather flow was later than I expected, in one of the Angus glens it came in during the middle of Sept (thankfully - cause I thought I was going to get nada, and once more lose credibility - DR's "hey this is science" line not going to work with gamekeepers). But, I brought mine down and harvested earlier than you do - wanting to get on with feeding and varroa treatments. I might need to rethink my timings and be willing to leave them up in the hills a bit longer.

What is your regime for varroa at this point?

[Calluna4u]

C4U - interesting for many reasons. You are feeding much later than I am, I completed that by end Sept for some, start of Oct for the rest. My feeding is carried out over 2-3 weeks, not all in one go but with a small quantity followed by a couple of large feeds, but I still suspect I run the risk of clogging up the hive and maybe not leaving enough room for late brood rearing.

I took my bees up to the heather later then you do, but did not feed. The forage for them was pretty good in early Aug- and I had supers on so frames just got moved over to other colonies and thin foundation put on for the heather-bound hives. Because the forage was good the Qs had picked up laying but I thought a bit late to get lots of bees of a foraging age but they seemed to do OK towards the end of the heather. The heather flow was later than I expected, in one of the Angus glens it came in during the middle of Sept (thankfully - cause I thought I was going to get nada, and once more lose credibility - DR's "hey this is science" line not going to work with gamekeepers). But, I brought mine down and harvested earlier than you do - wanting to get on with feeding and varroa treatments. I might need to rethink my timings and be willing to leave them up in the hills a bit longer.

What is your regime for varroa at this point?

Our timing is actually mainly a logistics matter. I would think it PERFECT if we could have all our bees home and fed for early October but it would cost me a kings ransom and we would get into a very serious bottleneck at home base with the yard all backed up with pallets waiting to go through the extracting room. we have over 60 pallets waiting as it is.....

We are also using invert all the time, only variant is fondant in times when they will not take the syrup, which mostly means December to early March. Nothing wrong with your timings if you do not have other pressures and you are using normal sugar syrup. They can take and store invert safely as sound stores a good bit later than needs to be the case with less concentrated feed.

The old saying that if you are up for the grouse shooting you are up in time held good this year, in fact some people went a lot later than that this year and did fine. On a smaller scale you can afford to wait till you see the whites of its eyes before you go. It takes us 2 to 3 weeks to move everything. The old saying sometimes holds true, but of course it discounts the bell heather. Even though, in 12 of the last 20 years the best flow was past if you waited till the 12th August. Some years there is little ling and the bell is the bulk of what comes in. We start to move in the first week of July, to have everything up in time, bell dominant sites first like Dinnet, and higher ling sites last. Earliest season we had in Deeside had the main ling flow starting in the last days of July, and we cannot afford to miss it, so we get our skates on fairly sharpish knowing we are missing little of commercial value down here. Like you, in late August it was looking catastrophic, maybe 20% of normal overall, but it picked up to merely being a failure (in commercial terms that is).

If we had to treat for varroa now we would wait until the week before Christmas and do an oxalic trickle. Works fine though a bit hard on the small ones which we would probably prefer to leave to take their chance (but never do for fear of them reinfesting their neighbours). We never sublimate as we just cannot deal with the logistics of going round everything for the succession of treatments required, and no chemist/beekeeper I know does it, and was advised very strongly by one of them not to. I have staff welfare and possible litigation to consider if any of them were harmed by it. One of my guys used to do it in Germany and Austria and did not greatly rate the effects and also that it made them feel pretty off colour after doing very large numbers of hives every few days.

You are local, and I have no problem if you were to pop in some time and see what we do and have a chatter. Any who do find out we are not the big bad bogey man, but actually just the same in so many ways, just the numbers are bigger.

[Emma]

Yesterday's news... after many days away, I was able to spend an hour or two loitering in the apiary again. Two hives have now turned space-age: I hid one beneath a neat, shiny insulation-foam cover, and crudely wrapped the other one in even shinier 1970s aluminium foil beer bags. An attempt at weatherproofing: in a few months I'll find out whether I've kept the damp out or in.
There was plenty of pollen going in but I have no idea how much brood there is inside and I'm astonished that so many of you are still checking. My colonies have had their grumpy "Keep Out!" notices up for weeks by now. Aren't yours the same?! Even gently tinkering with hive arrangements for a couple of them yesterday - just lifting parts of their crownboards - led to some angry smells and a very unhappy collective muttering. They didn't sting, but some very spiky little bottoms were raised in my general direction. I'll be on external checks only for the next few months.

[Greengage]

I was getting concerned there for a while so nice to hear im on the same track as Emma, as people were still checking their hives, I have closed mine up for the past two weeks all looks good but time will tell. There are bees still flying bringing in Pollen from Ivy. Here in the centre of Ireland it has been very foggy for the past few days so not much activity. I traveled to the south west last weekend (Kerry) and visited a small apiary like most other places he did not have a very productive year either his bees are still flying and wasps are stilll active around the hive. I had some of his cut comb honey delicious. As I dont own an extractor I think I will collect cut comb rather than extract honey next season, also saw an idea on the net where jars with a little comb were placed above the crown board and bees filled them up looked clever, then I can afford to play around with these ideas as Iam not dependant on it for a living. This is the idea http://removeandreplace.com/2013/05/07/how-to-easily-make-a-beehive-in-a-jar-backyard-project-diy/ would I be silly or would it work.

[Calluna4u]

To the last two posters, you are on the right lines. Even we have finished going into broodnests for the year now. Honey is all off and are on the last few days of carting the hives home from the moors. All being well we will not now 'break comb' at all until warm days in April. Once they are adequately fed, and have taken it, there is not much you can do to benefit them by nosing in at this time of year. From now till spring if we DO enter a broodnest it will be because of a problems of some kind, like a hive damaged by a tree branch or whatever nefarious reason (normally involving kids and rocks) and we need to move it into an undamaged hive.

They will still take syrup in a poly hive or from a poly feeder but even that is nearing an end. If you gave them enough leave the anxiety behind and relax till early spring. They WILL be ok. No need even to break the propolis/wax seal they make. Curiosity killed the cat.

Nothing unusual about the timing. Bonfire night is about our normal finish date. We will be a couple of days late on that this year, but that's not a serious issue considering how late the season ran and we were 10 days to two weeks late starting harvest and migration work, we have actually caught up a bit.

......

'break comb' was an old timers expression for going into the broodnest investigating. Does not apply if all you are doing is looking down from the top bars. However its still advisable not to go lifting feeders or crown boards to look at the cluster in winter. Breaks the carefully applied seal the bees put in place AND its surprising how often the queen is right at the top and if you did not spot her, and carelessly replace the board/ feeder/ whatever it can be crunchy time for the queen and a knackered hive for spring. So easy to do.

[Pete L]

However its still advisable not to go lifting feeders or crown boards to look at the cluster in winter. Breaks the carefully applied seal the bees put in place

When doing the winter oxalic trickle treatment are not all of the carefully applied seals going to be broken, just before what is usually the coldest part of the year.

[Feckless Drone]

Our timing is actually mainly a logistics matter.

Yes, I can appreciate better now that you are juggling a lot re timings, space, staffing, money. Graeme Sharp gave an interesting talk at the ESBA last night on Q rearing and he touched on certain logistics as well with his 100 or so colonies. Anyway, your comments give me some confidence then in my timings.

For Emma - I've not lifted frames since last week in Sept seeing the same "keep away please" signs and only then in one hive to check how supersedure was going - answer is I can't be sure cause new Q was running around (I think), just a few eggs visible, so left with fingers crossed. I don't intend to open hives until applying oxalic acid on a really cold day in late Dec/early Jan. Generally such a quick procedure that should not be too disruptive. Then its just worrying about them until April and trying not to buy stuff I don't need. Actually, this winter I'll try to read some of the really old time books - look for myths and truths!

[Calluna4u]

When doing the winter oxalic trickle treatment are not all of the carefully applied seals going to be broken, just before what is usually the coldest part of the year.

Of course. You have to balance out which you think is more important. Preserve the seal or kill the varroa. Of course its normally the latter. Its just good practice but by no means a rule.

However, not everyone does the mid winter trickle and indeed I would hazard a guess that the way fashions go in beekeeping that the practice is in at least temporary decline. We see no need for it this year as our bees seems to have a negligible mite load after the double whammy (for varroa) of a mid season treatment with Biowar (Apivar equivalent) and a partial brood break in July.

We have the oxalic on hand to use if I change my mind, and I am being strongly pressured by Jolanta to use it, but I favour leaving them alone, especially the smaller colonies.

Sublimation of oxalic seems to have become very fashionable and hopefully all will be finished by now. Also if you have used any of the thymol or formic acid based treatments. If so and finished with them than leave well alone.

[gwizzie]

Just been up to check on my hives and they are flying well, most of the hives has taken all the sugar syrup that I gave it 2 have not touched it. I know I am new to beekeeping but there taking in some amount of pollen, is this normal ? does this mean the queen is still laying or are they just topping up supplies ?

[Pete L]

However, not everyone does the mid winter trickle and indeed I would hazard a guess that the way fashions go in beekeeping that the practice is in at least temporary decline.

I have only ever done a winter treatment using oxalic acid trickle method during two winters, 2007 & 2008, much prefer to sort out the mite problems in late summer early autumn, hopefully before the winter bees are produced, I like some of the thymol treatments and oxalic sublimation, am also using Biowar for the first time on some of the full size colonies this season, and on all of the nucs, plus a third of a strip in all the over wintering mini nucs.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi C4u
Appreciate the point about staff welfare and oxalic sublimation, evaporation, whatever the right description is
It is pretty effective treatment though

I did a bar graph of mites killed in Winter 2008/9 using a varrox vaporiser (after a September/October treatment with Apistan which I think was a waste of money)
It might look pretty ropey here because I can only upload a Jpeg but have a look at the graph it should give the general picture
2445
Thats the drop from 22 hives in a stacked bar graph
In other words the total varroa count in the apiary

I have read on other forums about people doing lots of oxalic treatments one after another
I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would think that was OK or even necessary
Two takes care of almost all the mites

[Mellifera Crofter]

... Two hives have now turned space-age: I hid one beneath a neat, shiny insulation-foam cover, and crudely wrapped the other one in even shinier 1970s aluminium foil beer bags. An attempt at weatherproofing: in a few months I'll find out whether I've kept the damp out or in.

My colonies have had their grumpy "Keep Out!" notices up for weeks by now. Aren't yours the same?! ...

I've had to remove the Apivar strips from the colonies and have been dreading doing so as the weather turned colder and colder - but with today and yesterday's wonderful weather it was easy, and the bees weren't particularly annoyed. They were flying about enjoying the two windless sunny days anyway. Mostly I just tried to pull out the strips without moving frames about, but I did check a couple of colonies that I thought were queenless when I last looked at them about a month ago - and found worker brood! So I'm happy about that.

Emma, I have polystyrene hives and have no experience of wrapping them, but if you have wooden hives, I think you need to leave a small gap between the wood and the wrapping to allow for any water in the wood to evaporate and, I think, avoid dampness. Perhaps somebody can help out and tell us whether I'm right.

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Just been up to check on my hives and they are flying well, most of the hives has taken all the sugar syrup that I gave it 2 have not touched it. I know I am new to beekeeping but there taking in some amount of pollen, is this normal ? does this mean the queen is still laying or are they just topping up supplies ?
Could be a bit of both Graham
It's a good sign though

[fatshark]

Interesting graph DR ... either my eyesight is even worse than I thought or you've not indicated the spacing between the OA sublimation treatments? Can you enlighten me, or send me to SpecSavers?

I did three in a row earlier in September, at 5 day intervals and still had a 'worthwhile' mite drop after the last treatment. Since then, almost nothing.

[Pete L]

Interesting graph DR ... either my eyesight is even worse than I thought or you've not indicated the spacing between the OA sublimation treatments? Can you enlighten me, or send me to SpecSavers?


From reading the paragraph under the chart it looks like the first treatment was on the 30th of October and the second treatment on the 8th of December...i think.

[The Drone Ranger]

From reading the paragraph under the chart it looks like the first treatment was on the 30th of October and the second treatment on the 8th of December...i think.
Yes Pete thats right
Sorry about the quality Fatshark heres a link to a PDF which will let you enlarge the graph and read the text hopefully
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4kmkBxg4pS2bE1Cbm1NQnExQmc/view?usp=sharing

The dates when the counting got done are not all equally spaced but you can take the drop and divide by the intervening number of days and again by 22 hives to get the average drop per hive if you wanted that info

The hive number and its colour key is on the right

I was mainly interested in the whole apiary picture so thats why the stacked bar graph format
I did the same survey/counting of kill rate a couple of years later but I'm not sure where that graph is filed at the moment

[gwizzie]

Could be a bit of both Graham
It's a good sign though

Excellent, they were all flying well today like a mid summers morning. Fingers crossed for a mild winter and a warm spring.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Kitta
Wrapping hives ?
Cedar hives don't need painting
Cheap soft timber needs paint but that's all
Probably do a lot more harm than good wrapping them in anything
But hey it's nearly Christmas so a colourful wrapping paper would look nice

[fatshark]

Thanks DR and Pete (Specsavers here I come). I don't really need convincing about OA vaporisation but the graph is pretty compelling. Presumably the colonies are reasonably brood-free during that period (end-October to early December) so giving the little b'stards nowhere to hide.

There's clearly a lot of interest in sublimation/vaporisation on the forums (fora?) at the moment. I'm sure it's a lot less damaging to bees than trickling (as well as easier to administer). I've used it almost exclusively this year, including some colonies (not for honey production) that were treated regularly in high season. These had very low mite numbers at the last treatment. None of the queens have been lost and I've no evidence of damaged brood (though, in fairness, I've not done a side-by-side comparison with trickling which is reported to damage brood). I've got perspex crownboards and there's a bit of agitation during treatment, but they settle down within minutes afterwards. I've even treated casts and the virgin Q has got out within a day or so and mated without problem.

Perhaps the next 'hot topic' should be how long OA persists in the hive and whether it can be used in season - for example, between spring and summer flows - without contaminating honey?

[The Drone Ranger]

Perhaps the next 'hot topic' should be how long OA persists in the hive and whether it can be used in season - for example, between spring and summer flows - without contaminating honey?

Hi Fatshark
I can't answer that question but I would be fairly confident to say that varroa are still being killed/ damaged 30 days after the treatment because the difference before and after the second treatment isn't huge

I wouldn't use OA in season except in close to broodless circumstances myself

Usually in September or thereabouts there will be a brood break in many hives (people worry their queen has gone)
Also if you use Snelgrove boards the box with the queen and flying bees at split time could be treated
The problem in those cases though is that bees are still coming and going gathering stores etc

The best time is when most flying has stopped for the season but before the cluster is very tight (I think)

It would be simple enough to take the supers off in season because the whole treatment only takes 15mins or so before the vapour has settled as fine crystals in the brood box and on the bees
It probably wouldn't show up in honey but the treatment would likely be less effective ?

[Duncan]

Beekeepers stung by fake Chinese honey:
http://www.euronews.com/2015/10/30/protesting-beekeepers-stung-by-fake-chinese-honey/

When a similar topic was posted last week it was labelled as racist by Admin. I hope that Admin doesn't not view this post as such and come out in support of a country that has been the subject of anti-dumping action in the USA.

[alancooper]

[QUOTE=I was mainly interested in the whole apiary picture [/QUOTE]
I have used oxalic acid sublimation varroa treatment for two years and have found it a very effective treatment. Did you find any Q losses with the sublimation? In my first year I lost one Q (of the 5 hives treated). She stumbled out a few minutes after application and croaked - maybe an unlucky "beginners blast" from the fumes.

[alancooper]

Hi Fatshark
I wouldn't use OA in season except in close to broodless circumstances myself.
Usually in September or thereabouts there will be a brood break in many hives (people worry their queen has gone)

I considered a treatment by OA sublimation in September, when I had a three week "no eggs" break in all my hives this year - but because my varroa numbers were so very low, I did not do it. Have you ever sublimated in September?

[Kate Atchley]

I've bought one of the inexpensive vaporisers sold on eBay and planned to use with OA in December. I had assumed one treatment was sufficient but is it best to do two or three? Varroa has only just been detected in the hives concerned (sadly ... on the move) and mite levels are low.

[The Drone Ranger]

I've bought one of the inexpensive vaporisers sold on eBay and planned to use with OA in December. I had assumed one treatment was sufficient but is it best to do two or three? Varroa has only just been detected in the hives concerned (sadly ... on the move) and mite levels are low.
Kate I would say two is plenty
I would see what drops in the first 4 weeks or so after treatment one and decide whether to do another

[The Drone Ranger]

I considered a treatment by OA sublimation in September, when I had a three week "no eggs" break in all my hives this year - but because my varroa numbers were so very low, I did not do it. Have you ever sublimated in September?

Hi Alan
No I don't think I ever have used Oxalic in Sept (can't remember without going back over all notes)

Some years ago I think it was Alan Teale who gave me his recipe for DIY thymol treatment
Anyway it started me off making my own which probably is nothing like his original (apologies for that)

The recipe I use is pretty simple
Dissolve 500grms thymol in 1ltr of surgical spirit
Put 2 small flat sponges under the crown board and add 20ml to each one
Wait 2 weeks and put another 20ml on each sponge
Leave 2 weeks and remove sponges

Regards the queen croaking
I haven't had any bees die but I don't just poke the varrox in the hive and hope for the best
Ian Craig had some drawings for his varroa floor on the SBA website
It's basically a solid standard floor with another mesh floor perched on top
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/TDS%20number%208%20varroa%20floors.pdf
That's pretty much what I use myself

The space between solid and mesh floors where the varroa tray slides out is where I put the varrox (and use foam to plug the gap)
So the rising heated oxalic passes into the hive through the epoxy coated mesh floor spreading it more evenly
This saves accidentally cooking any bees

This year I have a few Paynes polynucs so will need to make something to sit them on as the vapour goes through the bottom mesh

[GRIZZLY]

Watch you dont touch the plastic with vapouriser D.R. The foam plastic will melt very quickly and is difficult to repair satisfactorily.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Grizzly
I melted a hole in my beesuit face mesh with just a slight senior moment and a hot smoker :)

[busybeephilip]

>The recipe I use is pretty simple
>Dissolve 500grms thymol in 1ltr of surgical spirit
>Put 2 small flat sponges under the crown board and add 20ml to each one
>Wait 2 weeks and put another 20ml on each sponge
>Leave 2 weeks and remove sponges


That's 10 grams / sponge. given that an api life var tablet has 8 gram of thymol then that method should be quite effective !

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Phillip
It is pretty effective in the reasonable temperatures at the start and finish of the season
and if you need to take care of varroa urgently
The surgical spirit evaporates faster than an apilife var tablet would but the bees are not harmed
When the thymol is all dissolved in the Surgical Spirit you have about 1.4 ltrs of liquid most of which goes back in the two 500ml spirit bottles
Once the bottles are are closed up the solution will be good for a couple of years at least
I have plenty spare empty bottles from previous years to put the extra bit in but a honey jar would do

[fatshark]

Have you ever sublimated in September?

Yes. No obvious problems (other than for the mites)*. I like to get my mite treatments done early to allow the Q to continue laying as late as possible. I've previously added Apiguard in late August as soon as the honey supers are off (and, since Apiguard regularly stops the Q from laying, this is one of the reasons to start treatment pronto). This year the supers didn't come off until early/mid-Sept and I then treated by sublimation, though using three treatments 5 days apart as there was lots of brood in the colonies (I think it was Hivemaker on BKF who has conducted some tests optimising treatments with brood present).

* I've only been into the colonies once since the last treatment and all were queenright though one had stopped laying. I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt I'm afraid :( but united the colony with a strong one. The rest had good amounts of brood for mid-October suggesting the mid/late September vaporisation hadn't caused too many problems.

I've got photos of all the trays but am ashamed to say haven't got round to counting them all yet.

The beauty of the vaporiser I've got is you just push the nozzle through a 8mm hole in the side of the floor and let 'em have it. For poly hives I've made a block of wood with an 8mm hole I hold across the entrance.

[Kate Atchley]

... I haven't had any bees die but I don't just poke the varrox in the hive and hope for the best...The space between solid and mesh floors where the varroa tray slides out is where I put the varrox (and use foam to plug the gap)
So the rising heated oxalic passes into the hive through the epoxy coated mesh floor spreading it more evenly. This saves accidentally cooking any bees

Many thanks DR. Very helpful. I'll be able to vaporise from below the mesh floor on most of the hives but the polyhives and Paynes nucs present more of a challenge. Will probably use the entrances of the Swienty hives but with a thin slate or similar beneath the metal parts to protect the foam from the heat. Might end up trickling for the nucs.

[Kate Atchley]

... The beauty of the vaporiser I've got is you just push the nozzle through a 8mm hole in the side of the floor and let 'em have it. For poly hives I've made a block of wood with an 8mm hole I hold across the entrance.

The block of wood fills the entrance either side of the nozzle, yes? Do you need to protect the polystyrene from the heat of the nozzle as it goes in/out or simply hold it off the surface until its over the mesh part of the floor. The rod through the entrance must get pretty hot too? (You can tell I haven't done this yet!)

[gavin]

The block of wood fills the entrance either side of the nozzle, yes? Do you need to protect the polystyrene from the heat of the nozzle as it goes in/out or simply hold it off the surface until its over the mesh part of the floor. The rod through the entrance must get pretty hot too? (You can tell I haven't done this yet!)

Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling? I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.

[The Drone Ranger]

Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling? I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.

Hear what you say Gavin I have never measured the results of trickling
I'm pretty sure there will be some data on results

I always like to test things for myself and measure the results before I commit to a method
I would encourage everybody to do the same not just take my word for it

I was collecting the dead varroa and putting some under the microscope looking for crystals on their bodies and feet
Once I started to see less of that I did the second oxalic treatment

If you have the Ian Craig type floor it's very simple to do evaporation

Poly hives are a bit more challenging and I have no real ideas how to approach that
Fatshark might have the best way to get that done have to think it over

[GRIZZLY]

Never had any problems with trickling - even in frosty conditions ,. everything takes place so quickly that the heat loss is minimal. I think sublimation is too risky, if you get O.A liquid on you it can be washed off - if you inadvertently inhale the sublimated stuff its off to medical care and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection - they just risk it.

[Kate Atchley]

Are the risks to the operator and to the polystyrene worthwhile compared to trickling? I don't see the need to use heat and vapours.

I've trickled often enough but the research suggests OA sublimation knocks down more mites and harms fewer bees. Repeat treatments can be applied if necessary.

I can't find the research findings I was reading last week but here's a FB entry which explains: http://www.facebook.com/indianastatebeekeepers/posts/10153288520369206?fref=nf.

Maybe someone else can offer sources on this?

[The Drone Ranger]

Never had any problems with trickling - even in frosty conditions ,. everything takes place so quickly that the heat loss is minimal. I think sublimation is too risky, if you get O.A liquid on you it can be washed off - if you inadvertently inhale the sublimated stuff its off to medical care and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection - they just risk it.

Hi Grizzly
Well I'm a bit of a coward round some things, so I have several bottles of Formic acid quietly aging in the chemical cupboard (old larder fridge)
Most times there is always a slight breeze so the trick here is to stay upwind of the hive (opposite of deer stalking I suppose)
Even a dilapidated old wreck like me can hold his breath for a few seconds (never go in water if you can't do this)
Plus the lead on my varrox is very long (boasting again) :)
It's the method I have always used and I'm still above ground

I think Kate is right that the sublimation method is more effective because you have a very fine mist which reaches all the bees and areas of the hive
I haven't measured or tested how effective trickling is it's probably pretty good and I might have to use it on the polynucs
If I do I might examine the dead mites to see what the effect of the trickle is in them

I once had two mites on a microscope slide and sprayed them with lactic acid
An hour later they were fine so I put some drops of the stuff on and let them swim in it
Couple of hours later they were still alive and kicking so the lactic acid spray (Thornes) went in the bin

I do take your and Gavin's point and that trickle is very simple to apply

[Calluna4u]

Poly hives are a bit more challenging and I have no real ideas how to approach that
Fatshark might have the best way to get that done have to think it over

As seen abroad....
Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.

[fatshark]

... and don't kid me that all operators wear full breathing protection - they just risk it.

They should. It's unpleasant stuff. And that's after reading up on it, not personal experience. I use an approved 3M particle mask and enclosing goggles. I also stand upwind and try to ensure the hive is sealed so all the 'goodness' goes to the mites, not the operator.

There's data on effectiveness in papers cited by Randy Oliver on scientificbeekeeping.com (perhaps here (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/)).

Re. poly hives ... my vaporiser has a narrow nozzle (7-8mm diameter and about an inch long ... stop that Fnarr, Fnarr in the back row DR) and the OA vapour is blown out through it. It's not like the Varrox-type which is more of a passive vaporiser. Hence mine stays outside the hive, with only the nozzle pushed through a hole in the floor or - in the case of poly hives - through a block of wood held against the entrance. None of the vaporiser actually contacts the poly so nothing melts.

[fatshark]

As seen abroad....
Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.

That'll do ... but not for a Varrox-type.

[gavin]

As seen abroad....
Drill a hole in the front of the hive the diameter of a piece of domestic water pipe (seen both copper and plastic used), cut a short length of the pipe and glue it into the hole. Using the sublimator pipe blow it in through the hole. Plug the hole with bit of cork or wood to await next round.

I'm impressed! With the typing I mean ... poor C4U has been in the wars and by rights we should expect fairly monosyllabic posts for the time being.

[Kate Atchley]

They should. It's unpleasant stuff... I use an approved 3M particle mask and enclosing goggles. I also stand upwind and try to ensure the hive is sealed so all the 'goodness' goes to the mites, not the operator.

There's data on effectiveness in papers cited by Randy Oliver on scientificbeekeeping.com (perhaps here (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/))...

Thanks for this fatshark. I will use my protective mask, goggles, gloves and clothing (why would you not) but passive vaporising of the Varrox type (heating acid inside the hive) has less risks than using a vaporiser with a fan which blows the mist from a tube (from outside the hive). Quoting fatshark's useful reference: "The passive models are inherently safer, since no vapors are blown outside the hive."

So I'll continue to puzzle out ways to use without damage to any of the polynucs or polyhives.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Kate
I have a Scott Pro2 facemask with suitable filters something like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCOTT-respirator-mask-filters-1pair-paints-dust-vapour-ammonia-liquid-gas-/171875713853?hash=item280497433d:g:Ef8AAOSwT6pVulg A
I'm not recommending this seller or anything just an illustration

They make them in large,medium and small and the filters are replaceable
For anyone reading the thread please note though the sort of facemask sold in B&Q for plastering or carpentry dust is useless for the job
you need filters which are for vapour and gas from acids A1B1E1K1 in this case

Always being upwind is best though unless you want to look like an extra on a Doctor Who set

[alclosier]

So I'll continue to puzzle out ways to use without damage to any of the polynucs or polyhives.

I've not used a sublimator, but if I was to and on a polyhive I think I would create some form of wooden sub floor/stand from wood to go under the varroa floor. Or adapt the hive stand to facilitate usage of the sublimator.


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

[fatshark]

Thanks for this fatshark. I will use my protective mask, goggles, gloves and clothing (why would you not) but passive vaporising of the Varrox type (heating acid inside the hive) has less risks than using a vaporiser with a fan which blows the mist from a tube (from outside the hive). Quoting fatshark's useful reference: "The passive models are inherently safer, since no vapors are blown outside the hive."

Hmmm ... although I gave that reference I'm not entirely in agreement with the statement. Both active and passive vaporisers will produce a 'fog' of OA crystals inside the hive. The 'active' model I've got (Sublimox) is inserted into the hive before inverting it. The inversion drops the OA (oops, I meant Api-Bioxal ;) ) into the heating pan. If used correctly, this type of active vaporiser does not blow vapours outside the hive, though a few wisps inevitably escape from poor seals.

So still best to take care.

[GRIZZLY]

What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.

[Kate Atchley]

youtube has many videos of OA vaporising some of which are alarming in their neglect of safety – this one for instance using a Varrox vaporiser (from England?): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOlHJO4VgQ. Curiously, the explanation of why he's not wearing a mask (or gloves or eye protection) has been cut or he stopped talking at that point.

This one shows a vaporiser which pumps the vapour into the hive but with more care being taken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NoYE2FA6_U

I enjoy watching Don The Fat Man who is here doing his customary unprotected beekeeping: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo. He makes strong claims for the treatment.

Loads more there to explore but few where folk are taking sufficient precautions.

[The Drone Ranger]

Curiously, the explanation of why he's not wearing a mask (or gloves or eye protection) has been cut or he stopped talking at that point.

.

reading this I fell about laughing, with a mental picture of him being carried off the set :)

[gavin]

What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.

Api-Bioxal is pre-weighed, legal and *very* expensive .... whereas a packet of oxalic acid crystals is very much cheaper and is illegal if used to treat Varroa. That's about it. From their website it looks like Thorne have stopped selling generic oxalic acid but most of us have a packet or two to last a lifetime in the cupboard.

[Pete L]

From their website it looks like Thorne have stopped selling generic oxalic acid but most of us have a packet or two to last a lifetime in the cupboard.

Maisimore are still selling it and some other ready made oxalic liquid treatment...plus Api-bioxal.

http://www.bees-online.co.uk/categories.asp?Sector_ID=7

[The Drone Ranger]

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/intridl4.html
Just some toxicity stuff
Really nothing much seems to have been done since the 1930's
You would conclude that acetic and formic are worse than oxalic
It falls somewhere between Isopropranol and something like toluene which you will have used with your microscope
These are figures of 30min exposure levels where there is no lasting effects or damage
If I read it right, once they calculate the safe exposure they divide the no harm calculated dosage by 10 to arrive at their recommended maximum exposure level for 30mins

Stand upwind then thats my advice :)

Ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500g-Oxalic-acid-/191731441130?hash=item2ca4159dea:g:bNAAAOSwo6lWN1Q 3

[Pete L]

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/intridl4.html
Just some toxicity stuff


There is some further info in the link below about the safety of oxalic sublimation.

Scroll to bottom of page and open the link headed... Evaporation of oxalic acid—a safe method for the user.

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en

[The Drone Ranger]

There is some further info in the link below about the safety of oxalic sublimation.

Scroll to bottom of page and open the link headed... Evaporation of oxalic acid—a safe method for the user.

http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkerei/00316/00329/02081/index.html?lang=en

Thanks Pete thats a fairly clear recent study which gives reassurance to me as I stand upwind looking like Darth Vader :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Finally dug up the sequel to the first graph
This is Summer 2009 through to Spring 2010
Used a lot of different treatments trying to get caparisons of effectiveness
Unfortunately I didn't keep enough notes so its largely just WYSIWYG
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4kmkBxg4pS2VjBYR291Um9PMlU/view?usp=sharing

Apologies for the link it's a PDF and I cant display that here but it can be enlarged and read more easily

The hive numbers are at the top and not all consecutive but there are still 22 hives
2448

Thats a screenshot which may not be readable by comparison

I think you might agree that the Oxalic acid treatment gets to the varroa that other cleaners just don't manage
Bit like Fairy Liquid used to claim :)

Actually when there is brood present I think the Apiguard or Thymol Sponges (recipe in earlier post) are better bet (as you would expect)

[fatshark]

What is difference between API-BIOXOL and O.A apart from the HUGELY inflated price ?.

You can't buy Api-Bioxal at a yacht chandlers in 25kg buckets ;)

More seriously, much of the the OA offered by a popular online auction house is 99+% pure, but the paperwork for the Api-Bioxal states that 88% is OA.Not sure what the remainder is, though I read a suggestion somewhere that it might be glucose.

[The Drone Ranger]

You can't buy Api-Bioxal at a yacht chandlers in 25kg buckets ;)

More seriously, much of the the OA offered by a popular online auction house is 99+% pure, but the paperwork for the Api-Bioxal states that 88% is OA.Not sure what the remainder is, though I read a suggestion somewhere that it might be glucose.

got my slogans crossed earlier

"Refreshes the parts that other beers cannot reach"
Heineken not fairy liquid

I suppose fairy might have a good a head on it though

[GRIZZLY]

I've also just read that it might contain an amount of glucose together with an anti-clog agent, I don't think I would like to sublimate that lot - just think of the toxic residues.

[gavin]

I've also just read that it might contain an amount of glucose together with an anti-clog agent, I don't think I would like to sublimate that lot - just think of the toxic residues.

Quite right, John. The burning sugar will not be pleasant and I wouldn't want the colloidal silica hydrate blowing about either though it may get stuck in the goo from burning sugar.

You post has encouraged me to look into this. Following their recipe for trickling gives this solution:

- about 6.0% (weight/volume) of oxalic acid dihydrate in 1:1 syrup. 'About' as I'm guessing at the volume increase when you add 35g powder to 500ml 1:1 sugar syrup.

- they claim this as '4.2%' on the basis of anhydrous equivalent of oxalic added to the solution.

If I remember correctly the usual recipe (1l water + 1kg sugar + 75g OA dihydrate) most of us use gives:

- 4.5% (w/v of real dihydrate crystals in 1:1 syrup), aka
- 3.2% (w/v equivalent of anhydrous OA)

Some of us use even weaker solutions.

In other words ApiBioxal made up as they recommend is 100*(6/4.5) = 33% stronger than we (and our bees) are used to. It is the method developed for Italy long ago not the more cautious one developed in Switzerland.

I guess that I should ask the VMD to comment. I'm supposed to be on their bee committee as the SBA representative but haven't heard from them for a while.

One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal). Be very careful and don't neglect proper breathing protection. I've had experience of eddies bringing dust containing nasties back to me in a lab setting using a fume hood and outside the same with eddying smoke from bonfires.

Thank goodness one beekeeping forum poster in particular isn't here or we'd be straight into arguments about 40-year old degrees and the means of describing solid in liquid concentrations :).

[Pete L]

I guess that I should ask the VMD to comment. I'm supposed to be on their bee committee as the SBA representative but haven't heard from them for a while.

One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal).


They also state when using Api-bioxal for sublimation that the vaporizer be washed/cleaned after every treatment, no doubt because of the extra ingredients gumming it up, that is fine for vaporizers like the
Varrox, but what about the continuous type vaporizers, some that take enough oxalic to treat say 40 colonies none stop, is the equipment going to be ruined or just gummed up solid with toffee i wonder.

[gavin]

Good question, I'll ask it for you. Though you may have the answer before officialdom comes up with one.

Slightly rhubarby toffee? Could be a new sideline .....

[The Drone Ranger]

I think I might make a little timer box with a 30 second delay followed by 2.5 mins of regulated 12V ,automatic switch off and then a 15 min further delay before an all clear horn sounds
That should let me retreat to a safe distance and have a cup of tea without the expense of a stopwatch, gas mask, and anxiety therapy that the people who don't use one deem essential :)

[gavin]

Excellent idea! Sounds like a great topic for the next shed (or kitchen) project ;).

I'll keep dribbling though .....

I could put to good use an automatic call to keep me productive after a 17.5 min tea break.

[GRIZZLY]

Thanks for your response Gavin. It's nice to know I'm not just spouting a load ot old tosh.

[The Drone Ranger]

I'll get right on it Gavin
This time next year we could be millionaires
A 4060B would make a good starting point
http://www.doctronics.co.uk/4060.htm
I have loads of them here :)

[fatshark]

You're right about the quantities Gavin ... the pre-mix from Thorne's is 3.2% w/v if I remember correctly and that's also the lower figure quoted in the Managing Varroa booklet from FERA. As an aside, I note that this has been recently updated to indicate that Api-Bioxal is licensed in the UK and that generic oxalic acid is not (in any EU country) but is 'tolerated in many countries'.



One comment on 'standing upwind' when you sublimate OA if that is what you want to do (which now seems to be legal with ApiBioxal). Be very careful and don't neglect proper breathing protection. I've had experience of eddies bringing dust containing nasties back to me in a lab setting using a fume hood and outside the same with eddying smoke from bonfires.

I think a point that is largely missed with the discussion of the danger of sublimating/vaporising OA is that the stuff should stay in the hive. If the hive is correctly sealed, with a sponge across the entrance, with the OMF 'closed' somehow and with the usual level of midwinter propolis gumming up all the little cracks, then the beekeeper shouldn't be exposed to evil-smelling clouds of OA ... and if they are, then the bees and mites aren't. This in no way negates the need for both considerable caution AND the correct personal protection equipment.

If it's like standing next to a bonfire on a windy day then you're doing it wrong ;)

[Jimbo]

Hi Drone you need to get into the 21st century. What you need is an app for your iPhone or iPad that triggers your timer so that you can do your sublimation from the house while drinking the tea.
It can be done I as am currently getting my phone to talk to my camera remotely to take photos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kate Atchley]

For those who enjoy chuckling at my endeavours and talking to the bees: I've learned a few tricks with iMovie (as well as raising Qs this Summer) and the results are on Vimeo!

This is one ... there's another three there, two very short: http://vimeo.com/145290438 Enjoy!!

[gavin]

Moidart's own answer to the Fatbeeman! (the slim bee lady?).

Yup, FS, you are right. The right kind of vaporiser, all the sponging and sealing and whatnot ... and you should be fine. The trouble is Scottish beekeepers probably still have bent copper pipes and blowtorches kicking about somewhere from a period some years ago when they were widey promoted here.

DR, if your ripple carrying binary oscillator/counter makes cash, it is all yours!

I'm tempted to look out a Chewing the Fat picture ('ooooooh!' with those wiggly fingers at the chin) for Jim's posh camera set-up :).

[Jon]

Thank goodness one beekeeping forum poster in particular isn't here or we'd be straight into arguments about 40-year old degrees and the means of describing solid in liquid concentrations :).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwc3VGvlRY

[gavin]

Thought I'd regret that comment.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Drone you need to get into the 21st century. What you need is an app for your iPhone or iPad that triggers your timer so that you can do your sublimation from the house while drinking the tea.
It can be done I as am currently getting my phone to talk to my camera remotely to take photos


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Jimbo
I know
I'm a dinosaur at heart really :)

[Wmfd]

Hi Jimbo
I know
I'm a dinosaur at heart really :)

In which case, the Victorian teasmade here (http://www.inoutfield.com/2013/02/18/bringing-the-victorian-teasmade-up-to-date/) is probably ideally suited to a quick modification to make it also trigger your sublimator as it brews you a cuppa.

Of course, I'm not sure if it is safer by the hive, or by the clockwork and meths powered beast! ;)

[The Drone Ranger]

In which case, the Victorian teasmade here (http://www.inoutfield.com/2013/02/18/bringing-the-victorian-teasmade-up-to-date/) is probably ideally suited to a quick modification to make it also trigger your sublimator as it brews you a cuppa.

Of course, I'm not sure if it is safer by the hive, or by the clockwork and meths powered beast! ;)

Look at the quality of workmanship in that teasmaid
I want one :)
God forbid we ever see a Chinese version being produced

[fatshark]

2458
Bee research makes the front cover of Nature (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7577/full/nature15757.html) yesterday ... with evidence that beekeepers have been irritating their spouses for thousands of years by leaving wax residues all over the kitchen.

Actually, it catalogues the evidence for wax residues in pottery shards from archeological sites and demonstrates that humans have exploited bee products for at least 9000 years (i.e. the beginning of agriculture). The absence of residues from anywhere in Britain other than Southern/Eastern England suggests the presence of an ecological limit for honeybees at that time. Nothing in Finland either, though Denmark is well represented. The sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago, suggesting bees were present then (or there were imports ;) ).

[The Drone Ranger]

Look at what has happened to the teasmade its been hybridised with an alarm clock

2461
The Victorians new better that's why they didn't have a buggy whip or some such irrelevance on the original

Re the pottery Fatshark could we blame the Romans or was it too early for them ?

[alancooper]

Fatshark said "sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago" - So without email and a good post office, which tribe would have brought their local bees?

[fatshark]

Re the pottery Fatshark could we blame the Romans or was it too early for them ?

We could blame them. After all, what did they ever do for us? But we'd be wrong ... a few thousand years before then.

[gavin]

The sites in England with detectable beeswax traces date back to 6000 years ago, suggesting bees were present then (or there were imports ;) ).

In Scotland we just turned most of the honey crop into alcoholic beverages, then scraped up as much of the wax as we could find to make candles to light those long dark nights :). None left over for sealing pots and jugs.

Seriously though, folk collected bumble bee nectar on a regular basis. I have a book describing the practice (wee laddies were usually responsible) in Wester Ross in Victorian times. Wax is in there too - are the researchers really sure it is honeybee wax in their pot shards? Same applies to the pollen deposits in containers in archaeological finds, could be bumble bee derived.

[Wmfd]

Look at what has happened to the teasmade its been hybridised with an alarm clock

2461
The Victorians new better that's why they didn't have a buggy whip or some such irrelevance on the original


The Victorian version is a thing of beauty, whereas that's a lump of plastic, probably safer but not an item to take pleasure in.

[Wmfd]

Seriously though, folk collected bumble bee nectar on a regular basis. I have a book describing the practice (wee laddies were usually responsible) in Wester Ross in Victorian times. Wax is in there too - are the researchers really sure it is honeybee wax in their pot shards? Same applies to the pollen deposits in containers in archaeological finds, could be bumble bee derived.

Is there enough nectar in a bumble bee nest to make it worthwhile? I've no idea how much you'd find in one.

Having said that, I would have thought, perhaps wrongly, that robbing a bumble nest would be less likely to end in tears.

[wee willy]

My Ukrainian friend told me, as a child he and his mates would find a bumble bees nest and quietly insert a straw into the honey cell and suck the thin honey out !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GRIZZLY]

We used to do that with dead nettle flowers.

[wee willy]

Interesting !


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[Mellifera Crofter]

I cleaned out a bait hive today, and found this nest. Clearly, they must have had a cosy summer in there:

2467 2468 2469

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Ki Kitta
Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project
Perhaps Keith who was interested in wasp keeping might be taking notes

This is my first poly nuc to be invaded by mice this year
After it had already almost given up the ghost so cant really blame them
The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot
I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)
2470 2471

The finger just got in the way :)

[gavin]

The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot


I know it is a bit of a pain but I think it is always worth painting these boxes inside the feeder and outside the box (where I like to think sometimes).

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Gavin
I think thats what I will have to do in future
Not much better than softwood hives though if you have to paint them
Have you got quite a few going into Winter ?

[Pete L]

Ki Kitta
Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project
Perhaps Keith who was interested in wasp keeping might be taking notes

This is my first poly nuc to be invaded by mice this year
After it had already almost given up the ghost so cant really blame them
The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot
I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)
2470 2471

The finger just got in the way :)

Some leak some don't, it seems that thin syrup is the worst for leaking, but then i suppose it would be, we seal them with beeswax, warm up a saucepan of beeswax and pour into feeder, swirl around and tip surplus wax back into pan, seals them well and fast, plus easier than painting.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Pete
I'm rapidly going off polystyrene :)

[busybeephilip]

Thanks Pete
I'm rapidly going off polystyrene :)

Yes, it looks like one still has to do a paint job with them, i think that paynes recommend they are painted which as you say defeats the handiness of the poly box. Mice are really fond of apideas in storage as they make ideal nesting boxes with an entrance hole of just the correct size which can be easily chewed to enlarge, they even have attacked mine in storage by eating through the back into the feeder. Have invested in more traps and blue mouse/rat blocks

[gavin]

Some leak some don't, it seems that thin syrup is the worst for leaking, but then i suppose it would be, we seal them with beeswax, warm up a saucepan of beeswax and pour into feeder, swirl around and tip surplus wax back into pan, seals them well and fast, plus easier than painting.

Excellent suggestion, thanks Pete. Are there any downsides apart from using up wax? For example, does it encourage them to set up home in the feeder?

I know that folk use paint sprayers to speed up the job of painting the outsides. Will probably do that myself for next season.

[Pete L]

Not really had much of a problem with them building comb in the feed compartment, Gavin, say two that have built a bit of comb out of 50, and they are all strong, so often a lot of bees hanging out in the feed compartment, I just slice off any small bits of comb if it gets in the way and prevents the wooden float from rising with the syrup when filling.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Phil
Aldi had some big plastic boxes so we bought a couple and put all the spare mini nucs inside
Not sure if that will be good enough but the nucs were well scrubbed with bleach first
Mice seem to prefer apideas to keilers if they are given a choice of both which is annoying because they are much dearer to buy
The ones with bees are (mostly) on shelves well above ground


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

[Mellifera Crofter]

Ki Kitta
Somebody used to advertise for wasp paper on here for an art project ...

The picture is of the damage inflicted by the wasps before that on the side with the feeder slot
I think its a bit porous (quality control issues)


I wish I've known about that person, DR. It bothered me to throw away such a beautiful sheets of wasp paper.

Like Gavin said, I think you should paint your poly nucs. They're still a lot better than softwood as far as the bees are concerned.

I realised a few days ago that I did not reduce the entrance holes in my Paynes poly nucs, so I immediately turned the entrance disc to reduce it and just hoped that I've not caught a mouse on the inside. The next day I saw that a mouse had started to nibble at the entrance - but it was on the outside, so trying to get in, rather than out.

Kitta

[Calluna4u]

ALL poly hive feeders MUST be painted internally (where the syrup sits) to seal them. End of story. Its in the care sheets most suppliers give out with them.

Syrup forces its way between the beads in even the best made boxes, and even if it does not entice wasps to bore into the material it causes mildew to develop and they go grey and black. Applies to all makes.

Our preferred paint for the interiors of feeders is the water based acrylic exterior masonry paint. Surfaces should be clean and dry and not primed.

For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.

[alclosier]

For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.

Out of interest, why do you favour gloss on the exterior?

[Calluna4u]

Out of interest, why do you favour gloss on the exterior?

Gloss paint, with the recommended addition of thinners for spraying actually bonds to the surface of the polystyrene and becomes a part of the box. 16 years on from doing the first of them the coat is still absolutely sound.

Water based paints do tend to flake and get very tired in the end when outside in the weather. Apart from rough handling or rodents a poly box will last for life, and not having to repaint them is a bonus, to us at least.

Not painting them at all IS an option, but they do get very old and worn looking. If that does not bother you then fine. We have completely unpainted and unglued poly boxes still in service since our first experiment in 1997 with no losses of boxes at all, but they look way worse than the painted ones introduced in 1999. The bees are fine in them and will be for many years to come, but they do look grotty by comparison.

Algae grow on the outside of the unpainted boxes, which in turn gets grazed on by slugs and snails. They have rough tongues and take an imperceptible layer off the surface when they do this. Some UV degradation also takes place which makes the surface even more susceptible to weathering or grazing damage. To get this in proportion however, from the rate of loss of external material it would take many many years, I reckon at least 40 or 50, for this to cause the box to fail. The wear and degradation is thus mainly a cosmetic issue.

The mix of colours we use which can look very odd to some is mainly an anti drifting and orientation strategy. Matt paint (oil based for the outsides) should also be fine but we just chose gloss at the outset and have seen no reason to change.

Most amusing to me was the guy who was very traditional in his ways but tried poly in a 'moment of foolishness'........sadly they did not respond too well to being creosoted. Of course this demonstrated that poly is no good.

[busybeephilip]

For exteriors we prefer a good grade of exterior gloss.

Not sure if it allowed or not on this forum , but, would it be possible to actually name the brand of food grade gloss paint you use for external poly painting ? I recall trying normal gloss on a piece of polystyrene before and it melting the poly beads

[The Drone Ranger]

Most amusing to me was the guy who was very traditional in his ways but tried poly in a 'moment of foolishness'........sadly they did not respond too well to being creosoted. Of course this demonstrated that poly is no good.

Didn't know you could still get creosote Crikey that wasn't a good idea
Still there are lots of interesting compromises that have to be lived with so the benefits of poly hives can be enjoyed
I'm less keen now than when I first bought them

Incidentally the chewed up nuc in the picture sat off the ground on a stand with 8 inch legs
It was bought in Spring this year, used for the first time on 11th July 2015 to make a circle split, and by the start of October three months later looked like it does now

Any box that is designed to house bees you would imagine might be reasonably proof against being chewed by them or their close cousins
Obviously painting is the answer but perhaps it's better to just buy something more solid or make your own since some DIY is going to be called for in any case
Plenty time for most folk to do it now Winter is looming

[prakel]

Still there are lots of interesting compromises that have to be lived with so the benefits of poly hives can be enjoyed
I'm less keen now than when I first bought them

I've tip-toed around the idea for a long time but not (so far) taken the plunge. Common sense (having spent some serious time living rough when I was younger) tells me that any compromises will probably be a good investment in the bees general well being and health in the long run. I don't need any convincing on that score.

However in this location, having watched our permanently established mini-plus hives and the comparably sized boxes built from OSB3/timber for ten years or so, I doubt that there would be much if any added benefit to us during the winter and spring. Where I'm sure we would see a real benefit would be during the honey season, perhaps even catching short flows which we might otherwise miss.

An example from this last summer, having been caught out due to other commitments a few boxes were left without their full compliment of frames, while the OSB ticked over nicely with some wild comb started the poly versions actually flourished.

2473247424752476

compared to the osb in the same time frame:

2477

Which actually suited our purposes better for queen mating but that's another story of compromise.

[Calluna4u]

Any box that is designed to house bees you would imagine might be reasonably proof against being chewed by them or their close cousins
Obviously painting is the answer but perhaps it's better to just buy something more solid or make your own since some DIY is going to be called for in any case
Plenty time for most folk to do it now Winter is looming

Some poly boxes are hopelessly inadequate for purpose and are made with material that is too soft just to get on the bandwagon and extract some cash from the unsuspecting or inexperienced, or even just from sheer ignorance on the manufacturers behalf.

If the material is at all soft don't buy it. Rodents love to chew it up and wasps can just drill through it in no time.

Also responding to prakel.....its precisely in winter that we get a major benefit, with our losses in poly being negligible. Also they outperform the wooden hives at the heather as they carry on breeding full pelt for a little longer than the wooden hives do and we have more bee power in the latter part of a normal heather season. In any given year about 7 of our top 10 places will be poly, and the average at the heather will run at about 8lb per colony higher (Its not that simple either as there will be more colonies in poly above the spring count than in wood, so the truth will be more like 10 or 12 lb more per spring colony than in wood). Even at 8lb in bulk that's an uplift of over £26 per hive, per season, on average........so not long to pay for any perceived failings or lack of durability of poly (not the case anyway). My worst ever rodent damage was a rat attack and they went in through the floors and fronts of wooden hives and ate the whole contents out of over 20 hives, boxes etc all destroyed.

Over the 16 years now of our poly unit I doubt the attrition rate will exceed 3% of all the gear we ever bought. Say 15 years at 25 pounds cash extra per year per colony.....£375.......against about 3% attrition on gear in total.....hive carcase of 4 boxes, roof floor and feeder costs me about 64 pounds......so about £2............its a no brainer. You could lose the lot every 4 years on average and still be ahead, yet they are every bit as durable as the wood.

A bit of rodent damage is a pest for sure, and causes frustration, but it works economically.

and to Philip....sorry...I said GOOD grade...not FOOD grade gloss. Also..if you put too much thinners into the paint and/or use very light and soft poly (like most soft packaging grades) then yes, it can do some poly melting. However, on the correct grade of both poly and paint this is actually the very property that makes the bond. A tiny...microscopic.... amount of the poly does dissolve and mix with the paint and pretty well welds the paint to the material. Done correctly this is not even visible to the naked eye.

[prakel]

...responding to prakel.....its precisely in winter that we get a major benefit, with our losses in poly being negligible.

This doesn't surprise me in the least, even in your Glos and Hereford apiaries (where i grew up and our family has kept bees consistantly since the early 1940s) but this odd little corner where I am at present is a world apart and we're even able to winter some surprisingly small wooden boxes without any special attention at all (other than the extra weight to stop them blowing away which I mentioned previously). Winter losses due to anything other than obvious queen issues from the previous summer/autumn are very rare for us. I do watch what our bees are doing very carefully, year round although that's all I can base my thoughts on until I do invest in some new gear (which may be quite soon*).

edit:* The only thing really stopping me at present is an as yet unresolved decision whether to go with swienty nationals (and make full use of the bs combs we've got already) or do the sensible thing and move over to langstroth (and cut down our dadant frames to fit) and convert the bs into stand alone mating nucs. It's not my decision alone...

[Calluna4u]

edit:* The only thing really stopping me at present is an as yet unresolved decision whether to go with swienty nationals (and make full use of the bs combs we've got already) or do the sensible thing and move over to langstroth (and cut down our dadant frames to fit) and convert the bs into stand alone mating nucs. It's not my decision alone...

LOL...I know exactly where you are coming from on that, and in part its why I never gave up the Smith unit, and probably never will. Remember we run about equal number of poly and wood, and the Smiths represent my roots, and boxes made by my father from wartime tractor packing cases from the USA are still in service today. I came to poly from the position of a sceptic, as I do with almost all new ideas in beekeeping, partly due to 95% of new products or designs of products not actually being an advance or benefit at all.

However....for new gear I would now not go past Langstroth, and standard Langstroth in particular. You can buy fully made up and prewired frames for under a pound apiece if you shop around, even at smallish scales, rendering all kinds of faffing about, which UK beeks seem to love, quite unnecessary and certainly not economic...even if you get the materials free.

As regards wintering small units...against my better judgement, and under pressure from Jolanta, we are trying to overwinter some Keilers this year with some very late mated queens in them. Just an experiment but will see how it goes. I would have had the lot shaken out and stored away in late September myself as we have no real use for very late queens, especially as they have mated at a time when the good colonies had all long since bumped off the drones. Of greater interest are the batch of nucs I made up myself about 7/8 Sept with a bar of brood and bees from each of 3 different hives in each one (so 3 bars of brood and bees) and added queens from the mating unit on 10th Sept.....yet all took and went into winter on 6 frames of bees. Might sharpen my mind about the usefulness of lateish queens if it proves as much of a success as it looks it might be. Ditto some early Oct requeening experiments.

I had a large number of wooden nucs here up until a few years back, and their wintering was very mixed. Yes in some winters we got a lot of them through, in others only a few survived. Deemed it not a viable use of resources and gave the lot away. Poly nucs seem to have been a game changer in that. Now we have 400 of those into winter.....a great safety net in the event of big losses.

Even here the bees in coastal locations do seem to winter better than those inland, though there could be a lot of different reasons for this. I generally think wintering bees up out of valley bottoms and with good air drainage is as important as anything else, but with our number we often end up just having to take what we can get so have a lot of less than optimal spots. I would quite happily try wintering nice strong wooden nucs by the side of the Tay estuary, but know it would be a dubious process 10 miles inland behind the coastal hills that keep the sea air away. In spring however the cold wind off the sea can cause different issues, and our bees there fly less in April and early May than those sheltered. A lot of swings and roundabouts. Wintering small units down where you are, and almost the more south and west you go the better it gets until extremes of wind negate it, should be very possible and to be honest we were at one point thinking of wintering bees in the deep SW to get an early start to spring. Long time ago when fuel and labour were far cheaper.

[prakel]

In spring however the cold wind off the sea can cause different issues, and our bees there fly less in April and early May than those sheltered. A lot of swings and roundabouts.

No different here; I've mentioned the difference which we see between the sites we have which are perched on clifftops and those a few miles inland before. One of the issues here is that most springs we see the early flowers held back on the coast while their cousins are doing well inland. At the far extreme there's the example of Gavin's sycamores which seem to flower a couple of weeks before ours on a regular basis.

[Calluna4u]

No different here; I've mentioned the difference which we see between the sites we have which are perched on clifftops and those a few miles inland before. One of the issues here is that most springs we see the early flowers held back on the coast while their cousins are doing well inland. At the far extreme there's the example of Gavin's sycamores which seem to flower a couple of weeks before ours on a regular basis.

LOl....I don't know where he sees them!

Actually there are always a few of the sycamores that flower way earlier than others, ditto with late ones, the spread of flowering times is wide with some all set and showing keys, other still coming out, well into June. We have a double grove of them on either side of a road a couple of miles out of town, and its always the same tree that comes first, even in leaf and flowering before most of the rest are even breaking bud. However such single tree sporadics are of no real importance unless you have only a couple of Apideas within flying range. Its the main flowering that counts, and the Hereford area is 2 weeks at least ahead of up here, but in Gavins home patch and mines a good bit inland from him. Each year varies however. E or NE winds really slow our area down, yet are good for Hereford.

I am not surprised we see much that is the same.....the more you look at differences the more you see similarities.

[Jon]

As regards wintering small units...against my better judgement, and under pressure from Jolanta, we are trying to overwinter some Keilers this year with some very late mated queens in them.

Keilers should overwinter ok, assuming enough bees in them and a winter which is not exceptionally cold for weeks at a time.
Queens were mating well into October this year. Whether they mated well remains to be seen but I have a few double apideas with late mated queens which seem to be doing ok and still have brood.

[The Drone Ranger]

It won't help now but in another thread I mentioned this already
If you are using Kielers for mating and they get too big you can add an extension box with another set of frames
But
If you are overwintering them it means you don't need to split the boxes looking for queens
So
The best plan overwintering is not to use a second set of frames just let them build long combs down through both boxes
You can lift the top box with combs up to inspect bees with care
You are best not to try and lift the frames out individually unless you are moving them on to a nuc or something in Spring

[Calluna4u]

Not even gone down the route of what we will do with them next if they survive. Its just an experiment at this stage and have no plan about what to do with them in spring. I really don't have a role for any ultra early overwintered queens apart from perhaps adding them to a queenless package of bees. I have a few of our best home bred queens in nucs with a breeder 'in a warmer place' who can supply me back fresh mated queens from early April, all bred from our own best stock, and would prefer those to the ones in the Kielers as I am very dubious about drone quality involved as our own drone mothers here had slaughtered their drones by the time the mating took place so it can only have been with the rag tag and bobtail drones of the local area.....which are generally more narky and swarmy (and less productive) than the stock we are selecting. However there is no saying they WILL be poor.

If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.

[prakel]

If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.

Out of interest, if you don't mind, do you have a preference for the size of nuc your queens mate from? Maybe to be clearer, I should say size of comb. If your breeder is who I think he might be I understand that he's now of the oppinion that larger nucs (standard frames) are better. This is something I'm fast coming to agree with myself for quite a few practical reasons as well as a few observational comparrisons which I've made -but don't have any firm data for... yet. Just a 'gut feeling' at present. Of course a trade off may be the numbers which can be kept, healthily, in one location.

[The Drone Ranger]

If they cannot winter in a single Kieler then I would say it would be a fail, as we cannot be messing about with things too much. For now they look surprisingly good with a sound but very compact cluster.

They will probably get through if their stores hold out

[Calluna4u]

Out of interest, if you don't mind, do you have a preference for the size of nuc your queens mate from? Maybe to be clearer, I should say size of comb. If your breeder is who I think he might be I understand that he's now of the oppinion that larger nucs (standard frames) are better. This is something I'm fast coming to agree with myself for quite a few practical reasons as well as a few observational comparrisons which I've made -but don't have any firm data for... yet. Just a 'gut feeling' at present. Of course a trade off may be the numbers which can be kept, healthily, in one location.

Firstly...its not the breeder you are thinking of, and the one it is works a bit closer to home albeit still 1000 miles from me. Not a famous breeder like the one you are thinking of and really only produces for me and one other client. If you saw the 'Penguins on a plane' programme.... Its NOT a yellow bee area btw.

Bigger nucs are more stable for sure.......but we got the fastest turnround in Apideas or Swi-bines, and once they were introduced into the nuclei to develop there was no discernible difference between the little boxes or the medium sized ones like Kielers. It would seem though that the Kielers require less intensive upkeep.

Mini plus, which was recommended to us, are too expensive and too many bits and pieces to damage or get lost to my taste. I can set up a full frames nuc for less. If we are going to overwinter nucs/queens I would actually prefer to do it on full sized combs so spring use or promotion to full hives is simple, not time consuming, and does not require gadgets or convertors.

[Calluna4u]

They will probably get through if their stores hold out

Jolanta last fed them only a couple of weeks back and they took it readily and are showing sealed stores beside the topbars. Although we bought a stack of extra frames for them they are actually still all on the four frame format rather than the 6.

She will give them another jug of invert into the feeder before she goes home for the winter in about three weeks time. We are only attempting it with a couple of dozen or so (I don't know the precise number, thats her job) so to feed them all will not even take an hour.

[Jon]

Mini nucs of whatever hue should never starve over winter as all you have to do is add fondant in an empty box above the cluster if stores are low. What kills them is lack of bees or a really prolonged cold spell. Having enough bees in there at the start of the winter is probably the most critical factor.
I have been overwintering a dozen or so apideas for a few years now as a bit of an experiment.
Last year I started with a dozen and all were still alive in mid March but a couple were queenless.
At the hobby level having a few overwintered queens in March/April is a great idea to replace any drone layers found in spring.

I am not convinced yet by the mini plus although Gavin and Prakel and MBC seem to love them!
Apideas cost less than £15 from Swienty and that includes the vat which could be claimed back.
The mini plus is a double unit but you can get 2 apideas for that price.
A mini plus used as a single unit is more or less the size of a nuc so for overwintering you could just use a Paynes nuc with standard frames.
I don't think there is any problem with queens which mate from small units as I have had loads of queens which live for 3 years which mated from apideas.

[The Drone Ranger]

Jolanta last fed them only a couple of weeks back and they took it readily and are showing sealed stores beside the topbars. Although we bought a stack of extra frames for them they are actually still all on the four frame format rather than the 6.

.

Hi C4u
They are easy to pick up one at a time and gauge the weight (in any weather)
You probably only need only look at the lightest one or two to see what is going on
I only have 10 keilers going in but even if half that come through it's a bonus
Spare laying queens are always handy even just a handful of them in Spring

[The Drone Ranger]

What kills them is lack of bees or a really prolonged cold spell. Having enough bees in there at the start of the winter is probably the most critical factor.

Hi Jon
A lot of SBAi folk must have raised a few spare queens for themselves this season
There is normally a flurry of " eeeek! my queen has gone posts" and "don't panic Captain Mainwaring " replies all at the tail end
This year it hasn't happened (probably due to your input)

We should have a poll :)

[prakel]

I am not convinced yet by the mini plus although Gavin and Prakel and MBC seem to love them!
Apideas cost less than £15 from Swienty and that includes the vat which could be claimed back.
The mini plus is a double unit but you can get 2 apideas for that price.
A mini plus used as a single unit is more or less the size of a nuc so for overwintering you could just use a Paynes nuc with standard frames.
I don't think there is any problem with queens which mate from small units as I have had loads of queens which live for 3 years which mated from apideas.

Love them I do, although my habit of tinkering has shown some possible improvements. The first and maybe most important to me is the use of them as single box units (off the top of my head I reckon that they're probably equivalent to two and a bit bs brood combs -but in a much better configuration). Don't get me wrong, I like twin units (when the doors are in the right place) but I've always found the comb fit in the Lyson mps to be a little tight for my liking when used with the division board. But that's just me and I know that others get on OK with them as twin stocks.

Another is the use of deeper frames but of course that then requires an extension to make the box deeper; full depth frames was the main strong point of the little poly twin mating nuc that Maisemore (and now Park) used to sell.

For quick mating and moving the queens on to their permanent homes none of this reallly matters but I try to keep the new queens in their mating boxes a little longer if I can. I also expect the boxes to winter as it saves the work of restocking them the following year. The slightly deeper frames seem to make a more comfortable unit as the bees create a band of stores at the top more readily than in the smaller frames where our new queens invariably lay to the top bars. This urge of newly mated queens to lay a lot of eggs in a short period of time is one of the things I've been mulling over with regard to queens mated from units with larger combs. Something is telling me that I'm wasting a lot of potential bee-power when I see queens filling bs combs as quickly as their sisters are filling miniplus combs.

...Just when I thought that I was getting the hang of this stuff :).

[Calluna4u]

There is normally a flurry of " eeeek! my queen has gone posts" and "don't panic Captain Mainwaring " replies all at the tail end


Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless in Sept especially. I cautioned against it, that there might actually be a queen and in any case the prognosis would be doubtful, but they went ahead anyway. Will no doubt hear in spring if they are still alive.

[Jon]

Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless in Sept especially.

I was still getting lots of enquiries for queens right through October.

[Jon]

Don't get me wrong, I like twin units (when the doors are in the right place)

I use a system of coloured pins in my apideas to let me know what is going on without having to open them every time. yellow pin means it has a queen cell, green pin, has a virgin, white pin, has a mated queen, red pin, has a problem of some sort, blue pin means wrong number of bees. This saves a lot of time when you have checking to do or queens to remove for posting. With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.

[prakel]

With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.

I find that they work well but there are a lot of little tricks which make them work even better!

[Wmfd]

Worrying day today.

I spotted a dustbin lorry with a number of Correx signs in it. Then spent a good bit of time trying to work out whether I could get them home, and how many nuc hives I could knock up from them.

Luckily it drove away before I could disgrace myself.

What have you done to me! 😉

[The Drone Ranger]

Oh there was plenty................sold over 50 queens to people in a panic about their bees being queenless

Well that was a short lived poll of 2 queen breeders
Seems things are still the same :)

[Duncan]

I use the German miniplus, I have about 600 of them. I made my own floors and frames for them as the manufacturers designs are lacking. They work well and I overwinter them with 2 or 3 bodies -these can be built up early in the spring and from each overwintered unit I can make 12 to 15 mating units. So really I only need to overwinter 50 or so. The smaller mating nucs are very efficient, but I prefer the larger miniplus and even more the 5 frame Langstroth nucs as I think the queens produced from them are better.
There are a number of things that make a small difference to queen quality, maybe each of them is only an improvement of 4 or 5% and not easy to measure, but when added up they could mean the difference is a 25 to 30% better quality queen.

[Greengage]

I use a system of coloured pins in my apideas to let me know what is going on without having to open them every time. yellow pin means it has a queen cell, green pin, has a virgin, white pin, has a mated queen, red pin, has a problem of some sort, blue pin means wrong number of bees. This saves a lot of time when you have checking to do or queens to remove for posting. With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.

Thats a good idea think ill adapt this next year, I keep telling people its the simplle ideas that will make you money never mind the big international web companies. ( Whats that got to do with beekeeping I dont know but it sound good in my head :confused:)

[prakel]

I use the German miniplus, I have about 600 of them. I made my own floors and frames for them as the manufacturers designs are lacking.

I imagine that on a small hobby scale some relatively simple tooling and the time to use it would bring those particular boxes below the cost of an apidea... although the time involved would obviously be the biggest factor for some.

[Calluna4u]

With a twin stock they will often be out of sync.

Yes indeed. My main reason for not going down the multi unit box route, despite having seen some really excellent and creative gear in Europe.

Often a nuc will need refilling with bees if it failed or was too small to recell it and still be a viable unit by the time the next queen lays. If only one part of a multi hive unit needs that, and the day or two in the dark, do you take the other one in too or miss out the unity establishing spell in the dark? Singles keeps it a lot more simple.

On the recommendation of someone else on here we will have an experimental lot of mini plus...the German ones, not the Polish, next year. However the 6 frame BS nucs are pretty good and I am rather reluctant to increase the complexity and range of different things. Uniformity is efficient and cost effective. Diversity and individualism costs (unless you have a VERY good reason for it).

ps...I really loved some three unit boxes I saw in Italy, each unit of the three being a three comb one third of a full frame size Langstroth. The three little frames were in a hinged arrangement that, when you needed it, unfolded out into a full standard frame albeit with three panels that you then just placed in a full size box. They were great and worked out at about 15 pounds for the three box unit, including all the frames etc assembled and prewired, painted too ready for use. However, the guy selling them was also a queen breeder on a relatively modest (for Italy) scale. Surprise surprise...he didn't use them..he used single units. Same issue, not all at the same stage, and awkwardness of refilling filed or inadequate units while others carried on fine, and apparently he sometimes ended up with only one of the three doing the business and the others empty.

[Jon]

The Paynes nuc box closed down to 2 frames with an insulated dummy makes a great mating nuc but they are really bulky compared to apideas.
I use a few of these as well as the apideas and they have usually built up enough by the end of the summer to let the last queen overwinter.
In UK conditions I think the target should be 3 queens per unit. Obviously not realistic this year with the summer we just had.

[Jon]

do you take the other one in too or miss out the unity establishing spell in the dark? Singles keeps it a lot more simple.

That's not as critical as some would have you believe.
If I start an apidea with a ripe queen cell I open it as soon as the queen has emerged from the cell. That could be just a few hours as long as the apidea in not on the site where it has been filled.
If I fill the apidea and add a virgin queen at the same time I open it the following evening as I find a lot of bees will abscond if opened any sooner than that.
With the queen cell, I find the 3 days in the dark recommended by most sources is just not necessary.
If opened before the queen is out of the cell, a lot will abscond. If she is out, they stick with her.

[busybeephilip]

Jon, Just if you could clarify for everyone your method.

You fill an apidea,

1) add a cell then keep in the dark 3 days then release on the same site as the original bees
2) Add a virgin at the same time, keep in dark then release at the same site
3)Add cell or virgin then release on same site 24 hours later at same site
4) add cell, wait till hatched then release at same site
5) Add cell or virgin and release at different site

[Jon]

There are 3 main methods:
1. fill an apidea and add the virgin at the same time. The virgin is added first and a scoop of wet bees is placed on top. Apideas are filled via the sliding floor.
You can open this one the following evening, ie closed about 36 hours.
2. fill an apidea and add a ripe queen cell.
This is kept closed until the queen has emerged from the cell.
Check the cell for emergence by removing it and open the door if the queen is out.
3. add a ripe cell to an apidea from which a mated queen has just been removed.
Just add the cell right away. No need for cell protectors. It is very rare for a cell to get torn down.
This one will already be open with free flying bees. You don't get absconding as it has brood present.
You can close it up and move to another site if you want.

[Kate Atchley]

There are 3 main methods:
1. fill an apidea and add the virgin at the same time. The virgin is added first and a scoop of wet bees is placed on top. Apideas are filled via the sliding floor. You can open this one the following evening, ie closed about 36 hours.
2. fill an apidea and add a ripe queen cell. This is kept closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. Check the cell for emergence by removing it and open the door if the queen is out.

Jon your detailed posts are so helpful. I think this is pretty much what I've been doing but is it right to follow 1 and 2 – ie fairly rapid opening of the mating nuc – even if the bees were from a neighbouring or adjacent apiary? Or would more time or putting into dark place be necessary then?

[busybeephilip]

even if the bees were from a neighbouring or adjacent apiary? Or would more time or putting into dark place be necessary then?

Yes, this is my query too

[Jon]

I find it is not necessary to have them in the dark for 3 days.
Where did that all start anyway?
3 days closed up is very stressful for bees.
However, if you open too soon with a virgin queen a lot will abscond even if moved to another apiary.
They go into any hive or mini nuc in the vicinity which has a mated queen in it.
You need some time for the unit to gel but not as long as 3 days.

[Jon]

Yes, this is my query too

Phil
Tim B brought several Kielers to my apiary a few years ago to get queen cells. He had just filled them elsewhere.
I gave him a few queen cells and when my back was turned he set them out and opened them up. 95% of the bees absconded into my apideas which had laying queens in them. This happened within a couple of hours. The key thing is to keep the mini nuc closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. They are a unit once the queen is out of the cell.

[Kate Atchley]

Phil
...The key thing is to keep the mini nuc closed until the queen has emerged from the cell. They are a unit once the queen is out of the cell.
Gotcha! Thanks Jon

[busybeephilip]

So just to clarify, you use bees from site eg A, wiat till queen hatches then release in the same apairy at site A

My concern is bees drifting back to the parent hive, as you know I move my mating units to different sites

[Jon]

It's better if you fill in one apiary and move to another.
You will always lose some bees drifting back to where they came from.
If you look at what we do at Minnowburn, people bring their filled apideas, receive a ripe queen cell then stack the apideas on a pallet.
Someone goes along the next day to set out the apideas and opens each one up at its station after checking that the queen is out of the cell.
If the queen has not emerged the apidea is left another day on the pallet.

[Calluna4u]

I bought my first Apideas over 20 years ago. The 'keeping in the dark' instruction came with them, in a written set of instructions, back in those days (early 1990's). Even then it was not 3 days however. 24 to 48 hours was stated, to make sure the nuc achieved unity. I think it was about small numbers of them because it mentioned that you should see them drawing out the comb by then if all was ok, but bigger users don't have time to go opening them all to see the new wax.

The 'in the same site' question I cannot answer as we fill packages with mixed bees in the field as requested by Jolanta and she soaks the bulk bees and scoops out the correct amount (which is surprisingly small) at the breeding shed then after the VQ or cell has been added she stacks them away behind the shed in a dark compartment and puts them out in place the next day or day after.

Don't go thinking I have 20 odd years Apidea experience however.....they were used sporadically due to being too busy to mess around with them, and for over half that time they were stored away in a shed.

[busybeephilip]

As Jon knows, I'm not a great apidea fan myself as i use a smaller unit, but I wanted to clarify the loss of bees due to drifting back to their own parent hive in a situation where apideas are filled and positioned in the same apairy should i try this next season instead of using a remote site - still not clear on the answer. Do you move or use the same site Jon?

[Jon]

I try and fill in one place and move to another if I can.

[prakel]

With the twin boxes it helps to have a removable division board, that way if one does go wrong they can be united -but allowed to keep using both doors. Divided later they tend to balance out OK but if they don't the entire box can be spun around.

I do think that it pays to have them big enough to overwinter without any special faffing around -even if that means taking the division board out and uniting. Keeping the combs alive for splitting the following season (as Duncan) suits my needs better than having a stack of empty boxes to start from scratch each spring.

[gavin]

Some cracking posts here recently, thanks everyone. Delighted to see the chat between experienced queen rearers of such divergent backgrounds and bee types. I plan shifting this into a new thread under 'Queen rearing' when I've time.

Here's a question. I received a (rather bashed) copy of 'Mating Biology of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera)' today from NBB. Koeniger, Koeniger, Ellis and Connor, 2014. p50 'Weather and timing'

'The minimum temperature for drone flight is around 18C (64F) while for queens it is about 20C (68F). Strong winds, cloudy skies and rain prevent mating flight activity. Warm days with blue or partly cloudy skies offer the optimal environment for honey bee mating activity.'

Does that accord with folk's experience? I know this year we were watching the weather forecasts carefully, hoping for the odd day with semi-decent temperatures and little wind. Does anyone know is these limits apply to all types of bee?

[Kate Atchley]

If these temperatures and conditions apply to Amm it's a wonder ANY of our queens mated this year before September as the weather rarely if ever reached 20º. I saw a queen out on a recce flight on a gently cloudy day with temperature around 18º. Same conditions for mating itself I wonder?

Good plan to relocate this dialogue, Boss. Never tire of rehearsing the nuc-filling scenarios etc etc. Some day it may all be second nature!

[gavin]

C4U and Jolanta had decent queen mating too at times this summer and their stocks don't have a strong Amm component, so I'm just asking. My impression was that there may be little or no difference, but I don't know. Also wondering if the 20C thing isn't right for many bee types, so Duncan may have something to add too.

[nemphlar]

BBP
I do most of my queen rearing in the back garden where they,re handy. I found if I filled the apideas from brood frames and left for 5 mins a lot of the older bees left and what was left stuck around.

[fatshark]

I don't think those temperature minima can apply rigidly ... I've certainly had (local mongrel with a dash of Amm, 2nd generation perhaps) queens mated when the temperature were appreciably less than 20C. Drones also fly below 18C.

[Jon]

Drones will fly and queens can mate at 15c if they have to but higher temperatures are better.
At 17-18c I see plenty of drone activity and mating flights if it is sunny and calm.

[The Drone Ranger]

BBP
I do most of my queen rearing in the back garden where they,re handy. I found if I filled the apideas from brood frames and left for 5 mins a lot of the older bees left and what was left stuck around.
I think that's right because you get the occasional one where a lot (sometimes most ) of bees go back home but usually they nearly all stay if you get them off of brood frames
I have read about people getting them out of the supers but it never seemed right to me so I don't do it



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[Calluna4u]

I have read about people getting them out of the supers but it never seemed right to me so I don't do it

Depends on when. The perfect bees for making packages or nuc filling are taken from the honey supers during a flow, when the correct age bees are up there drawing wax. However, what is often missed out is that they should be from at least 3 different hives, a mix of bees all shaken in together. This disorientates and confuses due to the scents etc being all over the place, and those bees accept cells virgins and mated queens better than those taken from a single colony....unless they are the same colony the cells or queens came from.

Taken from the nest you get older guard bees and very young nurse bees, plus drones too.....not great if you are trying to at least partially control the mating.

[The Drone Ranger]

Depends on when. The perfect bees for making packages or nuc filling are taken from the honey supers during a flow, when the correct age bees are up there drawing wax. However, what is often missed out is that they should be from at least 3 different hives, a mix of bees all shaken in together. This disorientates and confuses due to the scents etc being all over the place, and those bees accept cells virgins and mated queens better than those taken from a single colony....unless they are the same colony the cells or queens came from.

Taken from the nest you get older guard bees and very young nurse bees, plus drones too.....not great if you are trying to at least partially control the mating.
Hi C4u
Almost every article about making up mating nucs will say its essential not to include drones
I think that applies when you are taking your nuc to a remote mating station to be mated by the drones there
For most folk though the mini nuc is staying in the home apiary so it doesn't matter
Because they don't think about that folk get all worried about including a few stray drones for no reason

Wax builders would be ideal as you say I would like to capture just those but I'm not organised enough for that :)

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[prakel]

For most folk though the mini nuc is staying in the home apiary so it doesn't matter
Because they don't think about that folk get all worried about including a few stray drones for no reason

I wonder whether there's also a positive aspect to the general well-being of the nucs if they've got a few drones onboard (even if that means adding select drones from chosen lines)? It certainly mimics, better, the real life of the bee and ultimately I think that's what we should be doing.

That said, exclusion of energetic burly drones, determined to get out, might be a positive thing if the boxes are going to be stored for any length of time before release...

[mbc]

A nice surprise to click on here and have pages of interesting posts to read, top work!

One trick worth mentioning regarding bees drifting back at the same apiary is that bees left queenless for a bit tend not to drift when split. I use this when dividing overwintered multiple brood box mini plus hives for their first cells of the season, by harvesting the laying queen a day or so before the split the bees almost all stick to the brood frames they've been put into a new box on, with very few returning to their original site. I'm not sure exactly why it works, but it does and it enables me to spread the brood frames and bees very thinly, starting some new nucs off with just the tiniest patch of brood and adhering bees.

[Jon]

I wonder whether there's also a positive aspect to the general well-being of the nucs if they've got a few drones onboard

Apideas which are made up without drones attract a permanent drone population very quickly.
I have seen loads of apideas which have maybe 50 drones in them after a week which were started with none.
They sniff out those virgin queens very quickly.

You need to make sure to get them out if you are using an excluder after the queen has mated or the apidea gets clogged up with dead drones.

[Jon]

One trick worth mentioning regarding bees drifting back at the same apiary is that bees left queenless for a bit tend not to drift when split.

Never knew that. I'll be giving that a go next year.

[prakel]

Apideas which are made up without drones attract a permanent drone population very quickly.

Which of course shows that there's little point in the initial exclusion unless it's to reduce stress during confinement.

There could be a component of mating control implied in the instructions but that suggests that we're taking the trouble to move them to a select site for mating; in which case I imagine that we'd have enough common sense not to need need to be told to keep undesirable drones out. Anyway isn't that better achieved by the glass sided EWK nucs such as BBP uses?

[Calluna4u]

Which of course shows that there's little point in the initial exclusion unless it's to reduce stress during confinement.


But that's a pretty big point. Overexcited drones are a PITA. Never mind them dying against the small screened areas, they can also void inside the box and if there is a touch of nosema in the gut it will not do the unit any good. Want to buy a queen with an elevated risk (even if marginally) of carrying nosema?

So you have it made up with as few stressed drones as possible, and taking bees from above excluders is reasonably effective at selecting both relatively drone free bees of the right age for establishing the boxes. Even if working in the same apiary. In that scenario it has no impact on the genetics most likely, but its still not best practice.

Jon's point about them pretty soon not being drone free is not really a negative issue, as by the time they start moving in sniffing out a chance the nuc is open and in situ for mating, so these drones come from the drone pool you are targeting anyway, and its just the same if you are mating at source or at a remote selected site.

[The Drone Ranger]

I imagine that we'd have enough common sense not to need need to be told to keep undesirable drones out.
Hi Prakel
I think it is in the instructions for people making up mini nucs to be taken to somewhere like Læsø island in Denmark
So if you have an island mating site or something similar then it makes good sense
Elsewhere you can read posts insisting on how absolutely essential this is not to include drones (on occasion they can get a bit aerated)

http://bibba.com/laesoe-2004/
That's just a link to some info about Læsø I'm not sure of the correct spelling as BIBBA have spelled it differently

[prakel]

But that's a pretty big point.

I don't think that there's any deate about that, not from here at any rate. This chain of thought stemmed from a DR's post querying the standard instructions and their relevance if the mating nucs are staying on site.

Our mini-plus boxes often start with drones already on board at the time when the first cells are introduced; but of course, other than a rare move to another local site there's never any need to close those boxes (or to put an excluder at the entrance post mating) so it's a very different game plan to what many seem to be playing.

[prakel]

Hi Prakel
I think it is in the instructions for people making up mini nucs to be taken to somewhere like Læsø island in Denmark.....

Hi DR, nice link, thanks :).

[prakel]

Slight tangent here, I see that abelo are launching a national poly hive (again!) The interesting point is that it's been designed so that the brood chamber can be split into two nucs -possibly the same set up as the lyson mini-plus.

[Calluna4u]

Be sure you are getting what you expect with the Polish origin product. They are often made using a different process to most makers, I understand its often a type of casting rather than a pressure/vacuum moulding.

Not that its a big issue if you know how to handle both, but the product is a bit more fragile than that of some other makers, even though equally hard. Have had some where the outer surface is hard but when they break it turns out to have been just a skin and the beads in the interior, especially in thick and bulky areas, can just be a lot of loose beads that flow out. More 'biscuity' so need more careful handling. Perfectly functional in most situations though.

[prakel]

Be sure you are getting what you expect with the Polish origin product....

Thanks for that, interesting detail.

For myself, I've already decided that our first poly experiment will be with Swienty gear, I'd also be put off with national kit which didn't share the same footprint as the standard gear -although as I've intimated earlier I'd rather invest in langstroth boxes. ....but, my attention was caught by the possibility of using them as stand-alone twin nucs.

[Duncan]

A word of warning: The Polish miniplus are NOT compatible with the German ones. Only a few millimeters of difference, but if makes it very difficult to use them together. So, use a single supplier only.

[GRIZZLY]

Bees continuing to fly strongly during the warm spells we've been having on a daily basis in the current strong northerly wind stream.I think I might have to start supplementary fondant feeding before christmas this year. I am getting my oxalic acid ready to "bleach the frame tops" - 5ml per frame should do it -nice clean hive ready for 2016 !

[SDM]

Bees continuing to fly strongly during the warm spells we've been having on a daily basis in the current strong northerly wind stream.I think I might have to start supplementary fondant feeding before christmas this year. I am getting my oxalic acid ready to "bleach the frame tops" - 5ml per frame should do it -nice clean hive ready for 2016 !

Just remember not to mention your " hive Cleaning " on any vet meds records.

[madasafish]

No law says you MUST treat for varroa.. So you are treatment free.

[Wmfd]

Nothing much happening today with the bees today, far too windy, wet and generally grotty.

So, a little time spent in the garage, to put another coat on a lift for a WBC I picked up at the association earlier in the year. Just three more lifts, a roof and base to go.

David

[The Drone Ranger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R86DOPiX-3s
This is a little video discussing sugar syrup and invert sugar which was quite interesting
If you don't have time just check 8:53 till 10:53

[Pete L]

I assume you mean the bit where she states that no enzyme-catalyzed invert syrup is made anywhere in Europe, yes?

[The Drone Ranger]

That's the part Pete
I think she is making the case that if feeding has to be done then sugar syrup is the best option
I can't afford the inverted stuff so its the only option in my case [emoji4]
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[Calluna4u]

But its total NONSENSE. Almost ALL invert syrups for bee feeding are made by enzymatic methods, as its a cheaper process nowadays. Acid inversion is old technology. Very old.
I am not trying to sell anything, but if you don't choose to believe me then write to the technical departments at Nordzucker, Sudzucker, or Belgosuc.......other equally good makers exist.

[The Drone Ranger]

Couldn't say on that C4u
She seemed like a serious scientist to me but I can't say if its right or not
I remember one of the first things I was shown by the chap I learned beekeeping from was making fondant with cream of tartar
The rest of the video about the different sugars etc was interesting with the exception of the heckler near the end who was a twit
Could not believe my ears when that woman described boiling old brood combs and feeding the liquid back to the bees

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[The Drone Ranger]

I don't read German but this is the bit in English
http://www.nordicsugar.com/industry/liquid-invert-sugar/

The method used is hydrolysis but it didn't say enzyme so I looked that up and if they use enzymes them its likely this method

"Commercially prepared enzyme-catalyzed solutions are inverted at 60*°C (140*°F). The optimum pH for inversion is 5.0. Invertase is added at a rate of about 0.15% of the syrup's weight, and inversion time will be about 8 hours. When completed the syrup temperature is raised to inactivate the invertase, but the syrup is concentrated in a vacuum evaporator to preserve color.[6]"

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[Calluna4u]

I don't read German but this is the bit in English
http://www.nordicsugar.com/industry/liquid-invert-sugar/

The method used is hydrolysis but it didn't say enzyme so I looked that up and if they use enzymes them its likely this method

"Commercially prepared enzyme-catalyzed solutions are inverted at 60*°C (140*°F). The optimum pH for inversion is 5.0. Invertase is added at a rate of about 0.15% of the syrup's weight, and inversion time will be about 8 hours. When completed the syrup temperature is raised to inactivate the invertase, but the syrup is concentrated in a vacuum evaporator to preserve color.[6]"

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I have been in two of the factories and shown round and spent time with their technical departments.

One...Sudzucker....were very irate at the allegations they would use acid in bee food.

All three companies I mentioned are ethical and go to great lengths to provide a good bee food. Also saw the fondant being made. Fascinating. No chemicals there either, just a huge cold roller to initiate the crystallisation of the correct blend of syrup.

They have all been dogged by people going on about acid inversion. Its a story that will not go away for some reason, never mind how false it is.

Probably no-one remembers the problems over 50 years ago with an acid inverted product called Bee Nite.......... desperate dysentery and bee death followed its use. That killed off most of these products as a bee food.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi C4u
I hear what your saying I'm not sure why she said European plants used acid inversion
When you went round did you notice if the description I copied in about enzyme hydrolysis of sucrose looked right
Apparently the fondant isn't inverted to glucose just straight powdered sugar (somebody told me on the beekeeping forum)
She also says that there is no benefit to the bees from inverting sucrose to glucose and fructose
The reason invert is popular with bakers is it give a shiny finish to icing and tastes sweeter according to wikipedia

[gavin]

Remember what I told you about scientists!

[The Drone Ranger]

Remember what I told you about scientists!

Takes one to know one LOl :)

[fatshark]

Todays news ... off to check how many of my hives relocated to the North Sea in that breeze last night.
2489
And it's going to be windy again tonight ...

[Calluna4u]

Hi C4u
I hear what your saying I'm not sure why she said European plants used acid inversion
When you went round did you notice if the description I copied in about enzyme hydrolysis of sucrose looked right
Apparently the fondant isn't inverted to glucose just straight powdered sugar (somebody told me on the beekeeping forum)
She also says that there is no benefit to the bees from inverting sucrose to glucose and fructose
The reason invert is popular with bakers is it give a shiny finish to icing and tastes sweeter according to wikipedia

Lol...she can say what she likes. If the benefits of good quality invert syrup were not perfectly clear to us....and actually its pretty stark....we would not pay out the extra money.

Also your story about the fondant is also incorrect. Watching it being made was fascinating.

A super saturated syrup is produced at quite a high temperature.....82% sugars. It is then trickled onto a very large and very slow turning very cold roller. It is trickled on via a wide bar, almost as wide as the roller, which I would estimate as being at least 3 metres wide. As the roller turns and takes the trickled on syrup (it does not really run as the cold immediately raises the viscosity to a near non fluid level) and as the temperature drops it starts to form crystals very fast. Low on the roller a scraper blade takes the already crystallising product off the roller and it falls into a hopper that narrows into a spout with a cut off plate at the bottom.

This spout is then used to fill the individual boxes of fondant (the blue liner bag is already inside) to the correct weight. The box is then closed up and sealed (the fondant is still only half crystallised and quite warm and definitely a bit runny for using) and stacked on pallets. It is stored for a period (I think it mentioned one to three days) for the crystallisation to complete, then it was sold on.

Fondant comes in a wide variety of grades, and the high gloss stuff is a slightly different grade from standard white fondant.

In the post manufacturing store they had fondant of several well known brands.....all being made the same way in the same factory. Just different packaging.


Sorry...forgot to add.....the manufacturing guys and the lab teams at Belgosuc were very clear about their process, and were always happy to show clients round and answer any questions. Sudzucker had a small team visited Scotland a few seasons back to answer just those types of misinformation. The fact they even operate a significant trial apiary and test their product constantly against all other feed options and natural honey too, and are happy to publish all their results (which on some occasions have been known to favour competitors product, albeit rarely) and again to answer all questions. The lead syrups are all made enzymatically from sugar beet syrup. They are not starch derived. However even starch derived syrups we have tried have, with one or two notable exceptions, been excellent feeds. The sweetness is not actually a function of it being invert per se. Its the fructose glucose ratio that determines that. Fructose is much sweeter than glucose, so the higher the fructose the higher the sweetness.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thank you C4u for that explanation I'm sure you must be right
Still a bit dear though
You should book into the National Honey show and give a talk on feeds :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Todays news ... off to check how many of my hives relocated to the North Sea in that breeze last night.
2489
And it's going to be windy again tonight ...

Yes same here Fatshark
The hives have shelter from the prevailing or normal wind direction
If it switches though things can get blown over

[prakel]

I find it is not necessary to have them in the dark for 3 days.
Where did that all start anyway?
3 days closed up is very stressful for bees.

Stumbled on this reference in a section dealing with early wooden mini-nucs:


...A ripe queen cell is hung between the frames at the same time and the cover is put in place. The nuclei are then left in the cool, dark room until the third day when they are moved to their locations. The queens will then have emerged from their cells and each nucleus will be a minature swarm wth a virgin queen.

'Queen Rearing' by Laidlaw & Eckert 1950

[Kate Atchley]

Stumbled on this reference in a section dealing with early wooden mini-nucs:
It must have been the prevailing 'best practice' in 1900s it seems. Ron Brown in his 1980 guide Managing Mininucs, with delightful subtitle Honeymoon Flats for Honeybee Queens, explains Apidea stocking and adding a queen cell, then goes on:


"At this stage I put the mininucs in my wine cellar for three or four days, in the dark, in a stable, cool atmosphere .... the back of a garage or garden shed would do (but preferably cool and dark). ... After three or four days the mininucs are taken out of the cellar at dusk, placed on a hive stand with a brick on each and the entrance opened ..."

So this suggests even longer, closed and in the dark.

[prakel]

It was also the practice shown in the iwf video Skep Beekeeping - Work During the Cast Swarm Period with their mini nucs. Although I often wonder how much of their practice was actually traceable back to the 'old days' and how much was added during the mid twentieth century. Just because they continued to keep bees in skeps doesn't necessarily mean that they stopped adding new techniques gleaned from mainstream beekeeping.



https://youtu.be/Ns2HMtFJRaE

[busybeephilip]

Yes same here Fatshark
The hives have shelter from the prevailing or normal wind direction
If it switches though things can get blown over

looks like wed will be a big wind

[Jon]

lots of pollen coming in today. Dull weather but 13c.

[Kate Atchley]

lots of pollen coming in today. Dull weather but 13c.
Jon, I've often noticed distinct differences in our bees's behaviours and guessed that, being nearly 200 miles further north, local conditions must be noticeable different at times. Today the temperatures reached about 9º here though there may be different weather fronts on the move.

[Jon]

It's still 13c here at 7.30pm. Very mild all day.

http://www.forecast.co.uk/belfast.html

There is lots of ivy still in flower so the bees are bringing in the pollen any change they get.
The bees are still flying from the apideas as well.
Most of my colonies still had brood towards the end of November but I would hope the queens have stopped laying now.
It is a double edged sword as the extra winter bees are very welcome but the colonies have been getting lighter quite quickly.
Some of them are also dropping a fair number of mites so the Oxalic treatment is going to be critical this year.
I reckon they reared at least 3 maybe 4 rounds of brood after Apiguard treatment in August.

[prakel]

Not todays news as such, but this comment left on a youtube channel did catch my eye. What an absolute waste of sugar.


to late for my bees.
I killed them with anti varroa chemicals.
And I fed them with sugar....

[gavin]

and bees