Is concern over residues in foundation warranted?

[Neils]

Just having spotted Ron Hoskins (of Swindon Bee fame) in an article in this month's BBKA news firmly link chemical residues in wax with Drone sterility/queen supersedure I thought it a pertinent question.

Last year I stopped using foundation completely in my supers and I'm still mulling over the practically on 14x12 frames of phasing out foundation in the brood boxes. Chemical residues do play a large part in considering this although just letting the bees draw the combs the want is also a factor.

I don't personally use pyrethoid or similar chemical/pesticide treatments, thymol aside if people want to get picky, as part of my varroa IPM and so I don't really want to introduce it back into my hives through foundation.

Am I worrying over nothing? once drawn to comb is the quantity of wax in foundation likely to mean that concentrations are now going to be so low as to make no difference and/or am I just buying into the pesticide "scare" through the back door? I don't seem to be able to find anything conclusive linking anything in wax with wider bee health problems.

[EmsE]

Hi Nellie, does your LA have the facility to make foundation? At least then you know the wax is from a trusted source.

[chris]

Nellie, the 2007 study by Chauzat & Faucon on pesticides in wax has this phrase at the end

"Therefore, the authors strongly encourage beekeepers
to make foundation wax from their own virgin wax."

I'm not going to argue with that.

[Jon]

from their own virgin wax..

That's the tricky bit.
Like Nellie, I am suspicious of chemical build up in the Wax.
We have a guy in our bka who presses wax for all the rest of us at a reasonable price.
Members give him lumps of wax and you get back a proportional number of sheets in various sizes, drone or worker whatever you ask for.
The problem is that most of the chemical contamination is still going to be in there.
I don't use Apistan any more but nearly everyone else in my BKA does so if I use this wax I get recycled Apistan.

I believe a lot of wax is imported from other sources such as China so if you buy wax from a commercial supplier the problem could even be worse.
Does anyone happen to know where the various suppliers such as Thorne source their product.

[EmsE]

Is there also a risk of the wax from an unknown source to carry AFB or is it speculation? Our LA is encouraging us to make our own foundation from our own wax.

[chris]

Jon, can't you work it so the foundation you get back is from your own wax?.
My beekeeping supplier also provides wax from organic sources. It costs about 50 % more. I bought it once, to start off,and now use my bees' own, but in starter strips, letting them build their own comb within frames.

[Neils]

I'm in two minds (gives me someone to talk to if nothing else). I'm still seriously considering ditching foundation completely in the brood boxes, but I'm on 14x12s which can be wobbly in terms of not having the combs fall out when not handled correctly at the best of times and in some respects I think I'd prefer to go that route over pressing my own foundation simply because I lack the space for yet more beekeeping gear in the house as it is.

As I mentioned above I stopped using foundation in the supers last year with no problems whatosever putting them through a (manual) extractor and I can't see me changing that this year. But in terms of brood frames I do wonder whether I've backed myself into a corner a little with 14x12s. I was considering putting a brace about halfway down the frame with a starter strip there and at the top, but I'm also a little unsure at the moment what the ramifications, if any are, in terms of how that might affect the brood area.

Perhaps I should just experiment and be prepared to go back to foundation in the short term while I figure out a better solution.

[Jon]

starter strips, letting them build their own comb within frames.

I am seriously considering phasing out at least some of the frames with foundation to let them draw their own wax.
has anyone tried alternating drawn frames with frames with a starter strip. If nothing else that should avoid cross combing and the need to move en masse to biobees.com to complain about it.

A couple of people posted about using fishing line to reinforce the frames. Doris does this and Rosie (Steve) used to do this as well.
I think I will try this in some colonies this year. Even using alternate frames it would reduce the chemical load by 50%

Doris posted these pics earlier in the year (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?241-Double-Brood&p=1842&viewfull=1#post1842).

[Neils]

Worked fine with me in the supers. Not sure I'd want to try it with full super of empty frames. in the supers, I started with 13 frames alternated between drawn and starter strip and both shuffled frames around and widened the spacing as the combs were drawn.

One of our old salts here drills a hold about halfway down the frame on a 14x12 and runs wire through it to add an extra bit of stability using the old car battery trick to embed the wire with foundation. Have to admit, on a standard national frame I wouldn't be that bothered about trying to brace it to be honest, but I might live to regret putting that in "print".

[chris]

has anyone tried alternating drawn frames with frames with a starter strip. If nothing else that should avoid cross combing [/URL].

I do this when changing a colony from foundation to none, the first year. Once, I forgot to put in a frame (der) and on next inspection found the bees had built a double comb, attaching a *floater* to another framed comb by a patch of wax in the centre. Amazingly this held out fine, and was parallel to the other combs.I don't use fishing line, I use wire, but I wire vertically. No "strength" problems even in summer .The hives are in full sun, but I leave roof insulation in all year round. In my ignorance, I don't know what 14x 12 is- my hives are Dadants and the insides of brood frames measure 27deep x 42wide cm. (10.8 x 16.8 ins.).

[Neils]

14x12 is basically a national and a half in single box so it's a long thin frame compared to the (relatively) wide short in a commercial/Langstroths/dadant.

Even with wired foundation they're notoriously prone to sagging or falling out completely if not handled carefully.

[chris]

I was considering putting a brace about halfway down the frame with a starter strip there and at the top, but I'm also a little unsure at the moment what the ramifications, if any are, in terms of how that might affect the brood area.
.

Nellie, personally, I'd try an experiment on a few frames. I'd drill holes halfway down the frame sides, and insert a metal rod, about 2 mm. in diameter.I'd then wire vertically,wrapping the wire once around the rod on the way down. Then a starter strip at the top.The vertical wires will guide the comb down, and the rod should thus be incorporated into the comb.I can't see it messing with the brood area- bees are amazingly adaptable.

[Calum]

umm better to put in a wooden rod or strut - makes me shiver thinking of a metal rod conducting all the warmth away in winter!

[Rosie]

I can't see vertical wires working well with BS frames as the bottom bars are so flimsy. I would just put a couple of fishing lines horizontally between the side bars. 14x12s aren't as bad as you think Nellie. I usually keep about 6 or 8 14x12 hives and have not noticed comb problems.

Rosie

[Neils]

Been on them for a year now and I've not had any real problems, but I don't hold the frames flat but I'm still waiting for me to get lazy with them :)

[chris]

I can't see vertical wires working well with BS frames as the bottom bars are so flimsy.


Which just goes to show how there's always something I don't know when dishing out advice:o

[chris]

umm better to put in a wooden rod or strut - makes me shiver thinking of a metal rod conducting all the warmth away in winter!

Hi Calum. I don't really understand this. If the rod is embedded in the comb, where will the warmth go to? Perhaps I'm just being dim, but the idea came to me from these frames ,used by a beefarmer in the Vosges .549

The topbar is wood, but the side and bottom bars are metal rods:confused:

[Calum]

Hi,
maybe I missunderstood I thought you were wanting to strengthen the frame with a rod through the middle. Even on the sides I would not use metal. Metal conducts warmth and dissapates it, I thought a rod through the winter nest would just conduct the warmth energy out to the ends (or cold into the brood) - increasing stores consumption. Its some law of thermal dynamics or other. Metal edges to frames - I'd think bees traversing them in winter to get food from other frames would cool down much quicker than on wood. Was just a thought. I know I don't like our tiled kitchen floor in the morning without slippers.

[chris]

Rosie, why do you use fishing line instead of wire?

[Rosie]

Chris

Fishing line is standard practice amongst those of us who regularly use starter strips in the brood box. I haven't tried wire with starter strips but to me fishing line has a few advantages.

A) they stretch a bit so both lines remain taught even though the sides may flex a bit.
B) they are easy and cheap to fit
C) they are warmer than steel
D) the bees draw comb over them as if they were not there. I am not sure if they would with steel.
E) when you come to remove the wax it's easy to cut through them or if you melt the combs out the lines stay in place and remain tight.
F) they will not harm cutting tools such as those used for cell punching

They do, however, have a disadvantage in that the bees sometimes chew through them. I think Dave Cushman recommends 20lb line but my bees cut through that too often so I use 30lb. I once used multifilament line and the bees turned it to felt in a couple of days so monofilament is a must.

Rosie

[Neils]

All useful stuff. At the moment I'm thinking of doing the following:

1) Put the frames together in the usual way minus the "Wedge" on the top bar.

2) Drill holes approx 1/3 and 2/3 down on the sidebars

3) Run 30lb fishing line through these (horizontal support)

4) I'm currently thinking that some small screws that won't go right through the sidebars are possibly the easiest way to tension and fix the line. i.e. wrap the line once around the screw and screw it into the sidebar, tension and repeat on the other side.

5) I've got my cappings wax which I'm intending to use to make starter strips. In the supers last year I had some wireless foundation left over and I fixed 1/2 of the length of the foundation and maybe 4-5 cells deep to the middle of the frame, simply push fixing it onto the top bar.

So about 2 inches wide by half an inch deep.

I want to bailey change a double brood national onto 14x12s in the spring so I'm thinking that alternating foundation with frames with strips will hopefully minimise the chance that I'll get comb in all sorts of wierd and wonderful shapes and I can then start to shuffle things around accordingly. I might start off sticking all the foundation in the middle and then moving drawn frames to accomodate starter strips.

I know that's kind of a halfway house to start, but I'm lacking in 14x12 combs at the moment but figure once I've got one brood box going I use that as a "factory" to get some comb to use in any subsequent brood boxes.

[Jon]

I have much the same plan.
Would a drawing pin not be simpler for holding the line tight?
You could use scraps of brace comb for the starter strips. I do this with my Apideas.
Use a blow torch to melt a spoonful of wax and stick a bit of brace comb to the underside of the top bar with the wax.

[Neils]

A drawing pin might well be sufficient, some testing needed methinks.

If I'd kept brace comb separate it might well do, I've got best part of a pound of cappings wax though which should be more than enough for the brood boxes and supers this year. I might try using a spare OA syringe to do a nice line of wax along the top bars rather than use strips.

[chris]

Rosie, thanks for your reply. Your point C is probably true at cold moments, probably not when it's hot.Wire is used for foundation, so it must be o.k.. However as nylon is thermally more neutral it is probably better. Point D- I've never had a problem with the bees incorporating the wire in the comb. But then again , that doesn't mean that they don't do it more easily with nylon. Anyway, you've convinced me to try nylon line this year. I'll still work vertically though, as I've always found it guides the bees down. I can even put just a *blob* of wax at the beginning of a wire rather than a starter strip and there is never a problem of alignment of comb.
Regards.

[Kate Atchley]

Aesthetically, I LIKE wooden frames with sweet-scented wax foundation - old fashioned and unhealthy as the wax is now being labelled. Have always bought in the foundation as I use the beeswax from my own colonies for dipped candles. Wonderful Christmas presents!

Went looking for plastic frames and comments on these but, in the UK, for Nationals, found only plastic frames and plastic sheet foundation. The composite frames used so much now in the US seem not to have crossed the pond?

Is this right?
Has anyone tried them?
How difficult is it to coat them in molten wax before using?

Kate

[Neils]

There is a thread on the BBKA forums discussing plastic frames, I'll try and dig up a link for you. I don't really like the idea of using plastics myself. I know it's a bit wooly and in the case of polystyrene hives perhaps a bit of cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I do love the smell and feel of wood and part of me can't help but feel that as a building material, it does, well, grow on trees.

That's perhaps a bit rich typing this on my plastic keyed laptop in front of the plastic bodied TV etc etc etc.

Back on topic. I was too lazy to find a fishing shop supplier in the end so just ordered some frame wire and some tool I have no idea how to use but thought might be handy:
http://www.bees-online.co.uk/saleitems/1180.jpg

So today is where I get to annoy the neighbours by hammering stuff all day long. I've still got 2 hive stands, 3 hives and 10 supers to make up plus all the frames to go in them.

I did take a pragmatic approach and buy another pack of 14x12 foundation. I had 6 sheets left from last year and another 10 will cover the other two hives an I'll just alternate foundation with foundationless and see how they get on.

[Kate Atchley]

Good luck with all that hammering Nellie! Perhaps I'll do the same, but less to make up.

Recently made a couple of Horsley boards and will try them this Summer, for increase. (You can buy pieces of acrylic cut to size for the "slide" and they're cheap and easier for me to get hold of than metal sheet - suppliers easy to find on the web.)

I think the BBKA discussion Nellie refers to is at http://www.britishbee.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4691&highlight=plastic+frames and confirms, I think, what I have found out ... that all-plastic frames for nationals seem not to be available. Can't say I am very disappointed!

So back to the frame hammering!

[Neils]

This is how I've wired them: (click for larger image)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/5564023709_3366c28af7_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33552301@N05/5564023709/)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5028/5564022069_998dd272f6_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33552301@N05/5564022069/)

I made sure that the sidebars were a little narrower than the bottom bars when I fixed the wire so that when I attached the bottom bars it properly tensioned the wire.

One box complete, when I've done the rest I'll melt down some wax and try my syringe experiment.

[EmsE]

Nellie,
Do you need to use a lot of force to get the eyelets through the side bars? That's the part that's putting me off trying that.

[Neils]

Emse,

They're no problem at all if you use a 3 mil drill bit first, then they just push in. I was surprised at how straightforward the whole affair was to be honest.

I never did figure out how to use that tool but it wasn't needed. As you don't have to fanny around with foundation and the top wedge it takes about the same amount of time to make up as a frame with foundation.

[EmsE]

Thanks Nellie- Just a visit to the DIY & fishing shop I think I'll try a few frames this year to see how it goes.
Do you need to get the eyelets from Thornes or do they sell them in places like B&Q?

[Neils]

I got mine from Maisemore (and the frame wire, there is a fishing shop around here but it's a fair old trek away so I used standard frame wire in the end), I dare say they're fairly standard bits of kit and I could have saved a pound if I'd bought them from elsewhere but it looks like I've got several years worth of frames to do with what I have.

[chris]

. I think Dave Cushman recommends 20lb line but my bees cut through that too often so I use 30lb.


SOS Rosie. My wife just came back with some 14.5 kg line. She said it came in several diameters and took the 0.5 mm.But then, she knows as little about fishing as I do. Is this o.k.? It seems rather thin to me.
Thanks.

[Rosie]

Hi Chris.

Your 14.5 kg lie sounds just right to em provided it's monfilament. With fishing li eyou don't need ferrules in the holes as teh iniial stretch in the line will keep them tight even if the line beds into the grain a bit. I suspect that you will still get the odd line chewed through but at 14.5kg they should all last long enough for the comb to be drawn and aged enough to support itself.

The fact that it's thin is an advantage in my estimation provided the strength is ok. In fact a thin line is probably made from a tougher plastic than a thick one of the same strength, but I don't know much about fishing either!

Rosie

[chris]

Many thanks Rosie for replying quickly- that avoided me a 2 hr round trip to the shops, and I was able to get a good start on preparing some frames. I was concerned that line might slip more easily than wire, but found that wrapped a couple of times round a carpet tack, it holds fine. And the reusult pleases me.

Nellie, that tool- wire is like us- it tends to sag a bit more each year.You put the wire between the two wheels and run it along and everything sort of crimps and wrinkles and tightens up.

[Neils]

Made up another bunch of frames today, now I just need to do the brood boxes and I'm ready to go. Did point out to the Mrs who was helping me that we've actually still got another 100 super frames to go, but I think I can put those off for a couple of weeks.

The syringe idea worked well for putting a line of wax onto the top bars, now I just need to find out how well they work in anger. The first go should be next week when I'll try and bailey change a National onto the 14x12s.

[Neils]

Notice that Keele university are undertaking a study of what's in UK wax.

I can't make Stoneleigh where they'll have a stand apparently but I did mail them today to ask if I could take part in it. Apparently they want 500 beekeepers to send them wax samples and they'll tell you exactly what they found in your wax. Having just put the first batch of foundationless frames on a colony to Bailey Change them over, it'll be interesting to see what they find.

[EmsE]

Having been intrigued by the idea of wiring frames after all the discussion and tips in this thread, I tried doing some super frames with fishing line (30lb mono-filament)and alternated them with frames with foundation (well, I can't waste them!). After 10 days the bees have begun to build them out, straight through the lines. And what a lovely colour the wax is compared to that built on the bought foundation. Once full, the next test is the extractor;)

Nellie, I'm going to try your method of using a syringe to fill the top bar groove with wax next time. As i didn't have one, it was the teaspoon method which, besides been fiddly, was quite time consuming, particularly when scraping off the excess that had spilt.

If / when my bees decide to swarm, I'm going to be brave and try a few brrod frames too:)

[Neils]

The only hive I'm using the 14x12 frames on Is hanging in the balance a bit but they have started to draw out the foundationless frames. It's make or break fir them this weekend but I'll try and sort some piccies out as what they had drawn was beautiful White drone comb the two frames I did take a quick peak at had just reached the first wire without any apparent issues.

I don't wire the super frames at all so I can extract, crush and strain (where the combs aren't fully drawn) or cut comb as I see fit.

[Neils]

Syringing the wax worked really well. I reckon an ounce block Is more than enough for 15+ frames.

Melt the wax.
Place all your frames upside down in a nice line.
Boil the kettle.
Pour boiling water into a jug and chuck in the syringe to heat it up
Fill the syringe with wax and put it back in the jug to keep it hot. Wax will leak out if you hold the syringe upside down out of the jug!

Syringe a nice line of wax along the top bar. Couple of mil per top bar is fine. If the nozzle starts to clog up pop it back in the jug for a few seconds. You dont need to apply a lot if pressure to the plunger the wax is quite willing to come out on its own.

[Neils]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5148/5672913992_c2ba53fb7c.jpg (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5148/5672913992_c2ba53fb7c_b.jpg)
Is what they've done so far (click for a larger version)

[chris]

Freshly drawn comb like that is something that has always fascinated me. If my eyes aren't getting too old, I seem to notice that Nellie's bees have drawn it all with the hexagon apexes (apices ?) at the top, whereas Emse's bees have done a mix. I've forgotten what Ian Rumsey said about this,:o though I seem to remember it was interesting. If my computer holds out another day, I'll try and dig it out.

Hey Rosie. My bees have chewed through the line on 6 frames already:eek:

[Rosie]

Hey Rosie. My bees have chewed through the line on 6 frames already:eek:

Sorry if that's caused you any nuisance.

Mine often chew line too - that's why I use 30lb line instead of the 20 lb as recommended by Dave Cushman. I find though that at 30lb the majority of the lines survive until I need to recycle the frames and then I just melt out the old comb which leaves the lines in place for the next starter strip. The vast majority of the ones that are chewed last long enough for the combs to have had some brood and hence strengthened naturally with cocoons. I can't remember any instances of both lines being chewed through early enough to cause me any handling problems but with National frames very little extra support is needed in any case.

All the best

Rosie

[Neils]

Slight tweak required methinks, they're drawing out the stores at the top of the frames wider than the frame spacing before moving onto the next frame so I think I'm going to shuffle things around so that all the foundation is together and then start to put the foundationless frames between the two while not splitting the brood nest.

It's not the end of the world but I might take a knife with me and trim down the stores to fit properly on the next inspection.

[Jon]

I made up ten frames with 30lb fishing line at the weekend and will add feedback when they start to draw it out.

[EmsE]

Freshly drawn comb like that is something that has always fascinated me. If my eyes aren't getting too old, I seem to notice that Nellie's bees have drawn it all with the hexagon apexes (apices ?) at the top, whereas Emse's bees have done a mix. I've forgotten what Ian Rumsey said about this,:o though I seem to remember it was interesting. If my computer holds out another day, I'll try and dig it out.
Hi Chris, If you do remember I look forward to hearing about it. I vaguely remember someone once saying that bees moving from foundation to building their comb from scratch tend not to build the cells the right size in the beginning and it takes time for them to adjust. Is that right? I could always take a ruler with me to see what mine are up to.

[chris]

Hi EmsE. My computer has just started working again. Here is the wording that I found. Unfortuneately I couldn't upload the diagrams.Sorry for the strange layout- it comes from trying to copy an Acrobat document.



Horizontal comb is said to occur when the apex of the hexagon cell is at the top. Vertical comb has the apex of the hexagon at the side and is in fact horizontal comb rotated through 90 degrees.

The shape of the hexagon enables it to withstand externally applied tensions and press-ures in contrasting degree, dependent upon the orientation of the apex.
From the diagram below it may be seen that tension applied vertically and pressure applied horizontally would flatten and elongate horizontal comb.

However a reversal of these tensions and pressures would permit the hexagon to more readily retain its shape.

This is due to the horizontal zigzag component of the hexagon matrix being restricted regarding stretching and flattening as the vertical ties prevent the parallel zigzag components moving apart in an opposite direction.
A state of equilibrium is obtained and the hexagon shape is maintained.

It is clear therefore that to avoid cell distortion in natural comb the hexagon cells must be orientated in such a way as to withstand the internal tension exerted within the brood nest area.
Cell Orientation
To understand the finer points concerning natural comb construction, let us consult the master of this art, the designer of the structure, the manufacturer of the actual material, namely the bee, and also compare their knowledge and ability with our own mechanical theory. Two different types of mind may obtain the same solution.
The broodnest area is encircled with stores which supply the circumference with a rigid framework. The shape of the broodnest, with our theory,should decree the distortional stresses and in consequence ,the cell orientation.
Let us take a rope, suspended say between two poles 30 feet apart. It would form a catenary, and the tighter the rope the more shallow the catenary would become. The ro-pe would be under tension in the horizontal plain and there is no need for any immediate vertical support to aid suspe-nsion. We will now envisage the rope as an arrangement of hexagon cells, and to withst-and such tension, the hexagon would require to be orientated with the apex at the top. It would follow that where the broodnest was much wider than it is deep a similar orientat-ion would be required to avoid distortion The bees understand this and build horizontal comb accordingly.
Ropes may be suspended down wells, here the tension in the rope would be vertical and hexagon cells representing the rope would require the apex to be at the side to now wit-hstand the vertical tension. Upon this example bees building natural comb in tall narrow cavities would experience vertical tension and be expected to produce vertical comb. They comply.
May I suggest that bees appreciated the mechanics of hexagon structures before we could count to ten. Wax foundation, being produced as horizontal comb, prevents vertical comb being present within the hive, whereas natural comb in feral colonies very often produces broodnests comprising of vertical co-mb. Feral colonies appear to survive in areas of varroa infestation; colonies containing vertical comb. Per-haps consideration should now be given as to whether vertical comb may be detrimental to varroa reprod-uction.
Comb Betwixt Between
Bees being bees, and nature being nature, there also occurs natural comb which is a variation between the horizontal and vertical arrangement.
As previously explained, vertical comb is just horizontal comb turned through 90 degrees,but in actual factdue to the hexagon shape,the rotation need only be 30 degrees to achieve the same result.If one took thisrotation at one degree at a time there would be a further 29 variations of comb orientation between horiz-ontal and vertical comb.
This third type of comb clearly exists, it occurs quite regularly, and appears to the eye as horizontal comb with a downward slope.
If our theory regarding distortional stresses within the broodnest is valid, then application of this theory should provide a reason for the existence of this comb which is betwixt between.
Consider a broodnest that is not centrally placed within the comb and is altogether over to one side, to the extent that one side of the broodnest directly abuts the frame or cavity wall.There are no cells cont-aining sealed stores on this side, the rigid framework surrounding the broodnest has been broken. The st-resses now inside this area are neither totally vertical or horizontal but somewhere in between.
To compensate for this, bees reorientated their cell construction to the alignment of the revised direction of tension.
So, why should bees build a broodnest not centrally placed within the comb but over to one side? May I suggest temperature variation. When comb is placed so that a temperature gradient occurs across its surface, the broodnest may well be positioned towards the warmest edge. This theory is easily proved by observing the presence of comb with such a slope and noting whether the slope is down toward the warmer position within the hive, and that the broodnest is in fact offset also in this direction.
Even with these structural variations being available, the queen cannot afford to lay her eggs in total disregard to the loading of the broodnest area. An example of the queen's balanced method of brood expansion may be seen in HerrodHempsall's book 'Beekeeping New and Old' pages 429/430 which includes 17 photographs clearly showing this careful management. As one might expect with these structural considerations in mind, the larger and heavier drone cells are placed along the underside of the broodnest area thus again minimizing possible cell distortion. Has there been a lot of thought put into the manufacture of feral colony comb which takes all these factors into consideration?
Is this thought undertaken prior to actual commencement of comb construction? Does the comb construct-ion reflect the unique environmental conditions for each feral colony?and become a permanent record of joint information that has been collected and acted upon by a group of individuals?
The evidence is there, unbelievable, or unacceptable, as it may be.
The final chapter of T.W.Cowen’s book “ The Honey Bee ” is entitled “ Wax and Comb Construction” which is concluded by a quotation by Lord Brougham. The second sentence of this quotation reads – Not a step can we take in any direction without perceiving the most extraordinary traces of design. This I feel includes the construction of natural comb.
Ian Rumsey

[Neils]

Thanks for that Chris, really interesting, will have another read later and let it sink in a bit more.

[EmsE]

Hi Chris, Thats great & not something to digest in a quick lunch break either. Glad to know that it's not due to my bees being poor at geometry but because they have a healthy respect / appreciation of physics:)

[Beejud]

I am reading this with great interest and think I would like to try the fishing line method for some of my frames in both supers and brood chambers. If this is not a silly question, is there a point when it becomes too late to introduce frames like this to get comb drawn. I ask this because last year I had an older super of undrawn frames where the wax got broken accidentally. I thought I would be smart and cut the wax out leaving a wee strip along the top. They did nothing with it at all. From memory it was a bit later on in the summer and I didn't paint new wax along the top. Would that probably be why?

[chris]

I think the reason would probably be that the bees had no reason to build comb at that moment. My experience is, that when they need to build, they'll build just as quickly without foundation as with it. Even if you put no frames in, they'd build from the crown board.But they won't build just because you want them to;)

[Jon]

One of my colonies drew out an entire frame and the queen had laid it up within a week.
All it had was a tiny piece of brace comb about an inch wide and an inch deep attached to the underside of the top bar.
I must take some pictures as I also find the new drawn white comb to be a wondrous sight.

[Neils]

Bit of a progress update:


First frame, from a 50-50 14x12 (50% foundation, 50% empty frames)

For the first hive, a swarm, the first 4-5 frames were foundation, as they were drawn out I started to move in foundationless frames between the drawn comb at the front and back of the colony. So it'd go Stores, empty frame, comb, comb comb, etc, Empty Frame, drawn comb (no stores at the back of the hive at the moment.

After one week:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/5853309837_93361329fb_b.jpg

Same hive, different frame that's been in there a month or so, believe this is the second generation of brood in that particular frame:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2715/5852104933_e4ec140c73_b.jpg

And slightly closer:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5072/5853862400_5e61dd34b1_b.jpg

Different hive, all Foundation apart from this frame, it's been in there two weeks:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/5853311391_bd0bf6462e_b.jpg
Proper blurry cam on that one I'm afraid. Busy hive of fairly grumpy bees and a glove covered in propolis while trying to take a photo doesn't really mix.

[Rosie]

Interesting pictures Nellie but what did you do for a starter strip? I can't see any sign of one.

Rosie

[Neils]

For all the use they made of it, I syringed a line of wax along the underside of the topbar. The top photo is fairly typical of what I've seen in that they don't start from the wax which is where the wedge would go on a typical frame but from the bottom of the other side of the top bar, i.e. truly the bottom of the top bar.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi

Anyone tried plastic foundation

[Jon]

My bees have taken well to drawing comb supported by fishing line. This is a weeks work in a 5 frame nuc.

689

[chris]

Jon, only the top inch or so of the picture opens up. If possible I'd like to see a bit more.

When the bees chewed through my vertical fishing line, I rewired horizontally. No problems since.

[Jon]

It opens ok for me. Maybe you need to refresh the page or have a browser issue. Open the pic and press CTRL and F5

690

[gavin]

These pictures can be quite heavy on old last-century internet technology. As the picture loads the image gets heavier and so getting the message uphill to small villages high in the Provence countryside can be a bit of a challenge.

:p

[chris]

Donkey delivery brings the pics in 2 unaligned halves but I can now get the gist. I think Nellie has overburdened the page- his pics haven't finished uploading yet.

[Neils]

Lies! I host mine on flickr rather than upload then here so I think someone forgot to wet the string on their network this morning. ;)

[Jon]

Pedal harder on the bike which powers your generator. My picture is only about 150k.

[Neils]

It opens ok for me. Maybe you need to refresh the page or have a browser issue. Open the pic and press CTRL and F5

690

I love the smell of freshly drawn comb in the morning.

Looks pretty good to me. Has that come out of colony with otherwise foundation/Worker cells or is it largely foundation-less already?

[The Drone Ranger]

Nellie,

Going back to your original question about infertility of drones and residues from varroa treatments.
The thing that occurs to me is that infertile drones are mostly reported by people who are involved in some specific breeding program
Sometimes people carrying out Artificial Insemination projects where they are responsible for selecting the drones claim something made them infertile
Sometimes people breeding for resistance or colour etc. report problems with getting their queens mated
Weather aside most people don't have any trouble getting queens mated most years
So residues in the wax might be there but I don't see how it could affect only people involved in breeding programs
No doubt some study or another can be found to say it does matter.
Science suddenly got interested in beekeeping as soon a there was large pots of money to apply for.
If CCD doesn't exist then they will have to invent it
Eat 5 Fruit and veg a day - live forever
Rab C Nesbitt

[Neils]

I think you could also make the point that someone actively involved in bee breeding/queen rearing is in a better position to identify a potential problem than someone who isn't.

I've read a few mutterings along similar lines but freely admit that I've seen no "hard science" showing that, for argument's sake, that tau-fluvalinate causes sterility in drones.

I'm very interested to see how the study keele university is conducting turns out.

If we ignore global conspiracies and completely unproven claims here's my main reasoning right now. I live in a pyrethoid mite resistant area, I don't actually want to go to pyrethoids anyway, but let's ignore that for now. The theory is that by not having used pyrethoids for x number of years resistance will have lowered. I still wonder however how much pyrethoid is still going into the hives via foundation (and what else?) and what effect that has when it comes to both the bees and the mites themselves?

I do have to wonder about the sterility claims. Fluvalinate has been and remains in widescale use yet we don't seen to be seeing massive problems when it comes to queen rearing generally.

Going to stop here as I feel I'm probably starting to meander and very much exceeded the comfort zone for posting from a mobile.

[The Drone Ranger]

Nellie

I believe my own experience which is if your drones are crawling round with no wings they don't mate well

Best watch that mobile phone round the hives or all the bees will become disoriented and fly off :)

[Neils]

Not too sure that it's a simple all or nothing. THere are more than a few around here waiting with baited breath for the day when they can go back to slapping Apistan in the colonies because it's simple compared to this IPM malarky. But I'm yet to be convinced that I want apistan in my colonies whether it kills varroa or not.

[edit]
And as I'm sure there'll be someone along soon to point out that I don't seem to have a problem with Neonicotinoids so why do I baulk at putting pyrethoids in my hives when there's an equally flimsy case that they cause a problem, well that's my choice and I think there's a big difference between what I personally choose to do and what I'm prepared to try and dictate that others must do.

[Rosie]

Dave Cushman used to say that people engaged in II were finding dry drones since Apistan became widespread. Few who rely on open mating would notice that drones were dry provided there were enough fertile ones to serve the virgins in open matings.

I use starter strips for my drone comb and have done for several years but this year I have started casting my own foundation for the remainder of the combs. It's too soon to tell if it makes any difference but the bees seem to draw it mighty quick. My only reservation is that I currently use soapy water as a release agent for my aluminium foundation moulds and wonder if the detergent residue has a significant effect on the bees. I have been considering spraying the moulds with a PTFE spray to avoid the need for detergent. Has anyone else tried PTFE spray?

Rosie

Rosie

[Jon]

Philip Earle in my association who does II says you need at least 30 drones per virgin, maybe more, as so many are firing blanks.

[gavin]

Has anyone ever commented on the blank-firing proportions in different races and their hybrids? A feel a theory coming on ....

[Neils]

Are there any meaningful figures on blank firing drones full stop?

[Jon]

Anyone who does II will have useful data as it is a time consuming process getting the semen from the drones.

[Neils]

I seem to recall Ron Hoskins mentioning that there were some studies done in the US on it, but I don't have any more detail than that in my notes.

[The Drone Ranger]

You began this thread by asking for opinions on whether residues in wax could be responsible for drone infertility
Well as most of the wax probably comes from China and you can't even sit on one of their sofas without all your skin peeling off you have a fair point
Personally I don't feel Apistan should get blamed for everything wrong in the world of beekeeping.
What I do believe is that if one beekeeper has a problem with say drones and his neighbour doesn't then the solution is found in what they do differently
So it's either their practices or their bees health more likely than something they have in common with the rest of the beekeeping community
I wrote this sitting inside a Faraday cage protecting me from the death rays from your phone :)

[Jon]

Looks pretty good to me. Has that come out of colony with otherwise foundation/Worker cells or is it largely foundation-less already?

That is the first comb in the nuc they have drawn out.
I am mainly doing this you get them to make drone comb but I can see this would be a natural way to replace older comb over a few years.

I can see other advantages as well.

I fumigate unused comb over winter to kill nosema spores and other lurking nasties but the acid oxidises any exposed bits of wire. This eliminates that particular problem.
It should also be easy to cull drone brood and reuse the frame as part of an IPM strategy as there are no wires in the way.




I wrote this sitting inside a Faraday cage protecting me from the death rays from your phone :)

You need a larger version of this. You could fill the food chambers with pizza and spuds and eat your way out when the danger has passed.

705

[chris]

As Apistan is considered inefficace (Faucon 2/10/2001 "The use of only this molecule leads to a weakened colony and to the appearance of serious known disorders brought on by a too high parasite pressure." ) perhaps the problems arise not from chemical effects on the bees, but from the lack of them on varroa. And the lingering presence of tau-fluvalinate in the wax does its harm by maintaining the mites' resistance?

[The Drone Ranger]

Jon
Pizza and Spuds !!
I'l have you know i'm a 5 a day man
When they dig me up in 1000 years i'll be as well preserved as the honey in my tomb

[Jimbo]

What is the difference between a drone firing blanks and a sexually immature drone? From my understanding it takes a number of days for a drone to become sexually mature so if you were to pick a drone at random you could be picking an immature drone

[The Drone Ranger]

Jimbo that's an interesting point because if you pick one that looks a bit older (beard, sneakers etc.) He likely as not flew in from somewhere else??

[Jimbo]

As this point Gavin should be posting his picture again of the eye popping drone that checks if your drones are sexually mature

[Jon]

What is the difference between a drone firing blanks and a sexually immature drone? From my understanding it takes a number of days for a drone to become sexually mature so if you were to pick a drone at random you could be picking an immature drone

Are you not supposed to catch them at the entrance rather than off the combs as the ones which have flown are supposed to be sexually mature

[Jimbo]

At the bee breeding course organised by Enid, John and Terry, Terry demonstrated how to pop a drone to check sexual maturity of drones. Gavin took a photo of the Drone which is somewhere on this site

[gavin]

As this point Gavin should be posting his picture again of the eye popping drone that checks if your drones are sexually mature

Your wish is my command. I have a surprisingly large collection of such bee porn. I chose this one for the expression on the face of the well-known onlooker. The hands belong to Santa Claus or someone who looks very like him.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/ouch.jpg

Close-ups can be provided.

[Jimbo]

If I remember right there was a lot of screwed up faces and crossing of legs by the male participants. I missed the point about the colour of the semen. It is either tan coloured if mature or white if not mature. Can anybody clarify which is which?

[gavin]

Wince-tastic it was.

Apparently older drones are a bit risky for queen health (I'm saying nothing) and so light tan is better than dark tan. Read all about it here:

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/criareinas/59_instrumental_inseminacion.pdf

Paper is by John Harbo. I'm afraid that I can't read Dr Harbo's words without getting a mental image (no, sound) of him reading them out. Very soporific. He has a Google Videos film of Varroa that I sometimes use.

Plenty more on this kind of perversion here:

http://www.extension.org/pages/28330/semen-collection-for-artificial-insemination-in-honey-bees

[Neils]

THis week's view:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6068/6037521842_3ddf906f79_b.jpg

14x12 foundationless frames.

Lovely lovely bees.

[The Drone Ranger]

If anyone is planning to do their own frame wiring here's a plan for your own wire embedder

more D.O.A. that D.I.Y I think :)

[Jimbo]

In this day of elf and safety I hope you got it PAT tested!

[The Drone Ranger]

In this day of elf and safety I hope you got it PAT tested!

That sounds like its an Irish standard I'll PM Jon :)

[Neils]

First lot of foundation less super frames successfully extracted, again my only disintegrated frame came from wired foundation. I'm sold on not using foundation in the supers, somewhat less so in the brood boxes truth be told. It's a little hit and miss, even alternating with foundation whether you'll get a reasonable frame or not. If the frame doesn't need a good clean too it is at least much easier to replace the comb, just cut it out and slot the frame back.

I think I'll stick with it for another season as the ones that have worked well worked very well and the ones that were less "perfect" aren't annoying me enough to want to give up on it just yet. Not sure whether I'll bother with a starter strip next year as they seemed to ignore it completely anyway.

[Neils]

I got the results back from my samples....

Pesticides: N/A
Chemicals of interest: N/A
Other Chemicals: Hydrocarbons, Fatty acids, Esters and Alcohols.

The caveat in the letter is that this was looking for 'lethal' levels of pesticides. I think further detailed analysis might turn up some interesting results.

[Jimbo]

Snap! but it would have more meaningful to have listed some of the chemicals/pesticides they checked for. I also got a result from Dundee about Nosemaa few months back and was told none detected. It is good to know that my breeding stock of Amm are nice and healthy. Just need a good breeding season this year

[gavin]

I got the results back from my samples....

Pesticides: N/A
Chemicals of interest: N/A
Other Chemicals: Hydrocarbons, Fatty acids, Esters and Alcohols.

The caveat in the letter is that this was looking for 'lethal' levels of pesticides. I think further detailed analysis might turn up some interesting results.

Don't know what study you are referring to here, but why 'lethal'? Doesn't that imply a very-far-from scientific attitude to whoever did this? How on earth can you define lethal and why were they not interested in sub-lethal or even just present but we don't know what it means yet?

I'm on a rant about poor science and just using that word implies to me that that is what this is too.

[Jimbo]

Hi Gavin,

I got a letter and sample container sent to me via Chris Connelly asking if I would help by providing a sample of brood wax which also contained sealed and unsealed larvae. The return envelope was to Keele University

[EmsE]

My letter said that:
pesticide present - thymol
Chemicals of interest- butyl acted hydroxytoluene
Other chemical classes identified- hydrocarbons, fatty acids, esters and alcohols.

It added that there were no pesticides found within the wax at high enough levels to cause immediate concern. The sample is now being subjected to further tests to determine if lower levels of any pesticides exist.

[Jon]

esters and alcohols

That will teach you not to do a colony inspection the morning after a good night out.

[EmsE]

Lol:D

[gavin]

Oh *that* study! I received a circular asking about the survival of my colonies and a few fairly naive questions in the style of one of those undergraduate surveys.

It seems that they are mostly finding beeswax in the samples so far.

[Neils]

I took part in it specifically because they were looking at residues in Wax. Must admit that telling me there aren't lethal levels of pesticides in my wasx doesn't come as a huge suprise. The lack of dead bees and presence of live ones had already led me to that conclusion.

The letter does say that these were the initial findings and that another, more detailed round was going to be undertaken but the current results strike me as essentially being meaningless.

Though does the presence of hydrocarbons mean I should be more worried about exhaust fumes and less about pesticides in wax?

[gavin]

Yeah, quite right, the lack of dead and dying bees should be a (live) give-away.

I wouldn't assume that hydrocarbons means that your hives are absorbing appreciable amounts of diesel and petrol. All it means is that your wax contains ... errr .... wax. The word meaningless applies. This from Wikipedia:

Wax Content Type Percent hydrocarbons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon) 14% monoesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester) 35% diesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester) 14% triesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester) 3% hydroxy monoesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester) 4% hydroxy polyesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyester) 8% acid esters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester) 1% acid polyesters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyester) 2% free acids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid) 12% free alcohols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_alcohol) 1% unidentified 6%

[Neils]

But... But... I was going to start a campaign to get cars banned off that back of that letter. Having thoroughly mis-interpreted the data I thought it was obligatory.

So at the moment, from our grand sample of three participants, the only chemical of any relevance that's been detected in the wax samples is Thymol and potentially the rest of the stuff being "detected" form the constituent parts of wax to begin with.

Some context on the quantities might have been useful. hydrocarbons at around 14% of the sample and esters at around 32% would seem to suggest that it's simply the chemical breakdown of the wax itself.

To put a more positive spin on what we've seen so far, Thymol's the only chemical showing up in measurable quanitity (at this stage) though some qualification over what levels they're detecting at rather than "Lethal" would be useful.

[gavin]

But... But... I was going to start a campaign to get cars banned off that back of that letter. Having thoroughly mis-interpreted the data I thought it was obligatory.

I can put you in touch with a man with links to major UK broadsheets and who knows how to work not just <cntrl> c and <cntrl <v> but also <cntrl> b and <cntrl> i if you like!

[gavin]

It isn't clear to me why they are doing some sort of preliminary analysis. What folk really want to know is the trace levels and I'm absolutely sure that they will find a wide range of pollutants in the samples. However having spoken to local commercial bee farmers they have to have lab tests done on their honey for a wide range of things and they didn't have detections of imidacloprid (at a sensitivity of 1 ppb if I remember right). In honey, not comb. The reason is that the bees degrade it within hours.

I'd also guess that there will be fewer detections of agricultural chemicals compared with the US commercial beekeeper samples analysed by Maryann Frazier. Partly because the US commercial beekeepers keep their bees on more agricultural land than we do, and partly because I don't believe that UK amateurs in general have the same history of over-medicating their bees with beekeeping chemicals as some of the key players in the States seem to have done.

[Neils]

I think if the preliminary results were accompanied with some better context it might be more useful than at present. I'm still expecting Fluvalinate etc to make an appearence. I suspect you're right when it comes to general prohylactic medication that we won't see similar results to the US studies which was why I was particularly interested in taking part in this one, especially given the title of this very thread.

I think the general reaction to the techniques of Hackenburg et al when the documentaries first came out possibly speaks volumes. At least across the hobbyist forums the reactions were pretty uniform.

[Neils]

Just perusing Thorne's site and notice they're now doing organic foundation but only in National size.

[chris]

Might be interesting to know where they source it.

[prakel]

Where do they source it? I don't know.

Off topic again...

I do know that the small cell foundation which they used to sell was made to order for them by an American company -can't remember which one with enough certainty to mention the name. It was the tightening of restrictions on wax import which stopped them bringing in small cell from the US, at least, that's the way they explained it to me.

[mbc]

Might be interesting to know where they source it.

I have a friend who imports tonnes of organic beeswax from Zambia, google tropical forest honey for more info, an inspiring operation.

[Poly Hive]

Given the minuscule risk of contaminants in wax compared to the serious risk of having combs as per the pics on this thread I have made my mind up.

PH

[Mellifera Crofter]

Given the minuscule risk of contaminants in wax compared to the serious risk of having combs as per the pics on this thread I have made my mind up.
PH

What serious risk could that be, PH?

[Jon]

All the combs on this thread show new drawn wax with at most a couple of generations of brood raised in it.

[Poly Hive]

The combs have at best some 40 % of worker brood. They may be fine for a drone colony for mating purposes but not a comb I would want my brood nests to have in production colonies.

If all the brood combs were like that then the colony would be severely handicapped in my view.

PH

[Neils]

Bear in mind that for my photos at least they were foundationless frames going into colonies previously on foundation and there seems to be an initial tendency for the bees to concentrate on drone cells when you do a piecemeal replacement of foundation based comb.

They did eventually settle into maybe 20% drone cells, not uncommonly packed with stores.

I have ultimately gone back to using 10 frames of foundation to 1 frame of foundationless to keep the drone brood in one place which from an ipm point of view makes life much easier than trying to carve out drone brood from wherever the bees decided to put it.

[Jon]

I like all my colonies to have at least 2 or 3 drone combs as queen rearing is my main beekeeping interest.
I add comb like this to colonies which don't have drone comb in April.

A bee colony likes to have several thousand drones per colony at mid summer.

The other thing is, if you don't give bees somewhere to make drones they will try and modify worker cells or will make wild comb anywhere they can in order to create a few cells to rear drones.

You can stress out a colony by trying to shoehorn it into a very unnatural configuration.

I have seen older beekeepers removing drone comb accompanied by the commentary that 'drones eat honey'
This ignores the fact that drones generate heat and help to keep brood warm.

You never get all the brood combs in a colony drawn as drone comb.
If a colony has 100% worker comb and you remove a couple of frames they will draw out drone comb, especially early in the season.
later on in the season they use the drone comb for honey storage.

[Mellifera Crofter]

The combs have at best some 40 % of worker brood. They may be fine for a drone colony for mating purposes but not a comb I would want my brood nests to have in production colonies.

If all the brood combs were like that then the colony would be severely handicapped in my view.

PH

I read some research somewhere (and I'm terribly sorry - I don't know where) that the the colony adjust drone-laying according to circumstances and need - and that the queen has a say in this decision-making. Remove the drone cells, and they'd want to make up the lost numbers. If you saw a lot of drone cells on those combs, then it probably means that they needed that space and made use of the opportunity to raise drones. The ratio of drone to worker cells might be different on subsequent frames.

I wonder if you're right in thinking it will adversely affect production. Do you know?
Kitta

[Poly Hive]

If you mean know in the sense of producing research links then my answer is no.

If however you mean do I have knowledge then the answer is yes. I manage my drone brood, so as to have the most workers, and keep the hives happy with their drones. A happy hive produces honey. :)

PH

[Jon]

I manage my drone brood, so as to have the most workers, and keep the hives happy with their drones.

How exactly do you do that if you have a problem having drone comb in the hive as in the examples earlier in the thread?

[Poly Hive]

I use a deep floor so the bees can build drone comb along the bottom bars. Keeps the drone levels as the colony needs them and the brood frames for brood. Sorry if it upset anyone but combs like the pics with that level of drones is not a great example for a strong worker population. It may though be a misleading example, but it was put up as an example so that is what I am remarking on.

[Jon]

You must keep a very small drone population then unless the floors are several inches deep.
Would be interesting to see a couple of pics.
The figure I have seen quoted for a natural drone population in a colony is 15-20 percent which would be at least a couple of thousand.
I use shallows in the brood box as well and they invariably draw out drone come below, but I find it easier to have a couple of combs which are almost entirely drone comb.
Without wishing to sound like one of the right on 'natural' beekeeping evangelists, I do think there is something to be gained by letting the bees have a reasonable amount of control over the type of the brood they want to rear.
If they don't want to rear drones they use any spare drone comb for storing honey.
Any stressor in a colony tends to lead to increased levels of nosema and higher winter losses.

[Poly Hive]

In general I agree but the pic posted shows a good 60% drone comb, and at that rate times 11 there ain't a great deal of worker cells is there?

PH

[Mellifera Crofter]

... and at that rate times 11 there ain't a great deal of worker cells is there?

PH

But they will not continue building drone cells at that rate. They adjust their drone laying according to need. That's what I understand.
Kitta

[Jon]

I would never have more than 2 or 3 drone combs in a brood box.
The rest is drawn from worker foundation.
It is convenient to confine it to certain combs.
If I want fresh comb drawn, I remove a frame and replace it with a frame strengthened by a couple of strands of fishing line.
It will often be completely drawn and laid up 48 hours later.
Most of my drone comb is in storage in the shed at the moment and will be reintroduced in April or whenever the colony is strong enough.

[Jon]

But they will not continue building drone cells at that rate. They adjust their drone laying according to need. That's what I understand.
Kitta

That's how it works. A lot of beekeepers use exclusively worker foundation so they always draw drone comb the first chance they get when the have a space to make it somewhere. If you use one of those foundationless frames reinforced by fishing line they can make it 100% drone comb, 100% worker or anything between the two. I have noticed they often make worker comb near the middle and a fringe of drone comb at either side.

A newly housed swarm will never draw drone comb as the priority is to get a fresh batch of workers established.
You can also use shallows like this.

1332

[Dan]

I routinely give my colonies brood frames with 1" starter strips of foundation, placed on the edge of the brood nest to encourage the drawing of whatever they want/need. In a good season it is invariably drone comb in spring and early summer, although this year there was a marked disinclination towards that and much of them were drawn as part or all worker.

My attitude is that they should have the drone numbers they prefer, and having drone comb on a single frame aids with IPM for varroa. I do not find drone comb bad, undesirable, etc., but my preference is for a comb to be predominantly either worker or drone, and I do not get hung up about a line of drone along the bottom edge of comb.

I don't use fishing wire in the starter strip frames, but this is rarely an issue, even on 16x10 frames.

[Jon]

I don't use fishing wire in the starter strip frames, but this is rarely an issue, even on 16x10 frames.

You may be right. Once a couple of generations of brood have been reared in a comb it is pretty tough even when unwired.
If you put a frame in between two which are already drawn you don't even need the starter strip.

[prakel]

Just dipping a toe in here re: drone comb.

Having been away and off line for three weeks I've been catching up with various threads over the last couple of days and this one sparked a little interest.

I've been playing around with using starter strips and squares for a while now and have noticed that in the dadant brood frames the bees have been invariably building what I call a drone buffer at the 'front' of the comb between the worker brood and the hive entrance. I've not seen this behaviour (to any notable extent) in the BS combs which I have so am at a loss -so far- to know whether it's a result of having a larger comb area which in turn allows for greater flexibility in where they can choose to put drone brood or (maybe more probably) a result of the wider dadant frame spacing.

Whatever the reason it does show that there's stuff to be learnt by observing bees doing their own thing.

[gavin]

Fascinating comment on the possible effect of frame spacing. As my bees are on Hoffmans and there are often 12 in a National brood box they must be squeezed together a little tighter than some colonies - does this suppress or delay drone production?

And why drones near the door - do the bees know that they are running out of space in that direction? Does drone brood do better in cooler spots such as the bottom corners of slabs of worker brood and nearer the door? Does the pattern of drone brood change in polyhives?

cheers

Gavin