What makes a beekeeper - a special beekeeper?

[Eric McArthur]

Hi All
Google "Gloria Havenhand and be inspired

Eric

[chris]

Hi Eric. Any particular link in mind? I don't have the time to read all that google offered!!

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Eric. Any particular link in mind? I don't have the time to read all that google offered!!

Hi Chris
You'll find the lady here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-1312562/Gloria-Havenhand-Meet-beekeeper-whos-championing-healing-power-pure-honey.html

Regards

Eric

[Mellifera Crofter]

Eric,

I followed the link from the article you mentioned to Gloria's own website and I just wonder - why does she call her honey 'bio-active antibacterial honey'? Is her honey any different from honey produced by any of us who cold-filter our honey? Isn't that title a bit of a con? I think it would have been better, and more honest, if she had just said that her honey is cold-filtered and explained why that is preferable. Also, what exactly does 'bio-active' mean?

Kitta

[gavin]

She need to be careful with the health claims she is making. Prostate troubles, psoraisis - really?! One you get to the 'Einstein' bit you know you are dealing with hyperbole and lazy journalism ... but I suppose it is the Daily Mail after all.

Gavin

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Gavin

Don't give up your day job!

She need to be careful with the health claims she is making. Prostate troubles, psoraisis - really?! One you get to the 'Einstein' bit you know you are dealing with hyperbole and lazy journalism ... but I suppose it is the Daily Mail after all.
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She (needs) to be careful with the health claims she is making. Prostate troubles, psoraisis (psoriasis) - really?! (Once) you get to the 'Einstein' bit you know you are dealing with hyperbole and lazy journalism ... but I suppose it is the Daily Mail after all.
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Throwing stones and glass houses springs to mind!

Regards

Eric

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Kitta

Don't shoot the messenger! Write and tell her to get her act together!

Eric

[gavin]

So you are saying now that she (Gloria Havenhand) is both inspirational *and* needs to get her act together? You were more than just a messenger, you were asking us to be inspired by drivel, and a claiming that she was a 'special beekeeper'!

[Trog]

Apparently she's so special her bees don't have varroa ... in England???? She has to wear 3 layers of trousers and use gaffer tape anywhere the bees might get in? What on earth sorts of bees is she keeping, I wonder? Or is it the way she handles them?

On the other hand, this is a reporter's blurb and I've seen for myself this month what someone who is not into bees can make of what a beekeeper says, so maybe she's not making all the claims the article thinks she is. I hope.

[Calum]

A good beekeeper keeps their bees in good health and alive, they also select and raise good quality queens.
A special beekeeper also inspires people to become beekeepers and inspires beekeepers to become good beekeepers.
Boring answer but its mine.
Must say I was not impressed with the link supplied - at least some of the assertations in the article are BS making the whole message void for me.
A little exaduration I can accept but mixed with crap it is unpalatable.

Gloria, who becomes a veritable bee-whisperer, almost sweet-talking her bees to keep them calm. ‘But I still wear my helmet, three pairs of trousers, three jumpers, with gaffer tape around the tops of my boots and at the edge of my gloves.’
- hahaha lmao cant be very good at stock selection if she has to wear 3 pairs of trousers. And must be really special if she is so afraid of the benifits of bee venom that she uses gaffer tape- great advertisement for the gentle art of beekeeping...

Eric I assume you mean special in a special way?

[gavin]

I'd missed that first time round, the don't have Varroa business. Special indeed.

More from her web site, from the 'About us' button ....

'Individual pollen grains - these blighters are responsible for your hayfever .... blue poppy, common daisy, daffodil, larch and cowslip' (those famous hayfever flowers)

'At Medibee where beekeeping and biology are in harmony – and using ancient beekeeping skills and years of experience, we reap the harvest of every beehive at exactly the right time – the integrity of our products is paramount.'

Which is immediately above that picture of 'Ye Olde in Harmonie With Nature Bees' ...... all the way from Slovenia. Check the broad bands on tomentum and the pale hairs around the thorax. Pity, as Derbyshire had a thriving group trying to preserve the native honeybee.

Then there's the 'ancient meadows at Troway Hall' which seem to have Ye Olde Ancient Meadow plants like borage, poppy and oxeye daisy?

Poor lady, what has she done to deserve such scrutiny? I suppose it was being told that she was inspirational that did it.

G.

[Calum]

she does make some statements about beekeeping, but she does almost as much self and product promotion:
the worker bees, who live in hundreds of bright red wooden hives dotted across two beautiful, wildlife-rich sites within flying distance of the Chatsworth estate and Derbyshire’s moorland. Every year, Gloria’s bees produce many tons of honey, bee pollen and propolis – ‘magic for cold sores, Jo, absolutely magic’


To listen to Gloria, there is nothing that her antibacterial bee products can’t help with: from burns to prostate problems, coughs to eczema and psoriasis, mouth ulcers to hay fever. Anecdotally, bee stings can be helpful for multiple sclerosis, and also arthritis, ‘In some countries, “apitherapy” is registered as a medicine, and the US is trying to create regulations for its use.’ Honey has been used to treat infected surgical wounds in hospitals, overpowering even MRSA.


MediBee honey, which differs greatly from what you’ll find on a supermarket shelf. ‘That’s been blasted and overheated and diluted till it’s wishy-washy

‘There’s a neurotransmitter in honey called acetylcholine, and if you take one or two teaspoons at bedtime, it’ll regularise your heartbeat and make it easier to sleep,’ she says.

Gloria confides a useful tip for bee stings: ‘Immediately swipe the side of a credit card firmly in one direction over the area of the sting. It helps get rid of the venom, whereas squeezing pushes it further into the flesh.’

‘I don’t believe anyone should own a hive until they’ve apprenticed themselves to an existing beekeeper, for at least a year – there’s so much
to learn about hive hygiene, about safety, about simply getting the best out of your bees.’


‘Bees play an essential role in putting the food on our plates – and the clothes on our backs’
One reason Gloria is so delighted to put bees in the spotlight is that without them, we could face a tremendous food crisis. ‘One in three mouthfuls of the food we eat is pollinated by bees,’ says Gloria. ‘They play an essential role in putting the food on our plates – and the clothes on our backs; where would we be without cotton…?’

‘We have swathes of oilseed rape now, which are not about biodiversity or high nutrition,’ declares Gloria. ‘We’ve ripped out millions of miles of hedgerow and ploughed up 90 per cent of old meadows. We drench our crops with pesticides – it’s no wonder crisis looms!’

By contrast, the French, she points out, are planting nectar-rich wild flowers at the edge of motorways. Although Gloria has suffered some occasional bee losses, there’s been no sign of colony collapse disorder, which has devastated the world’s bee population, or of the varroa mite, a parasite which sucks the life-blood from bees.
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It probably says all you need to know about Gloria that she collects memorabilia of Scott of the Antarctic and Margaret Thatcher.
Yes says enough, goes down a treat at the daily mail that. Scott was no Shackleton nor was he a Amundsen, and Margret Thatcher - I would not even bother the list is so long.

[Trog]

I was under the impression that it was grass pollen that caused a lot of hayfever. My dad, though, always sneezed when he was near honeysuckle. Can't see that the pollen in yer average honey will help with those particular triggers, though I'm all for promoting honey as a healthy food for all its other benefits.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Guys

What a bunch of fuddy duddies!
Gavin, the lady’s special quality is ENTHUSIASM. She is doing for English hive produce what that clever New Zealand boffin some years ago did for Manuka, when he extolled the virtues of this unique honey and caught the public imagination.
Manuka is no better nor worse than English, Scottish or Irish honey as an antiseptic, or as a burn treatment or as a food supplement for a healthy diet. It however is rather an acquired taste – unlike lime, willowherb, hawthorn, Himalayan balsam, bell heather, ling to name but a few of our own special and delicious honies.
Incidently, the lady, according to the link article appears to be allergic to bee venom. More credit to her, for overcoming this drawback and persevering, due to her obvious love for this furry little creature which is the catalyst for this forum and many organisations through-out the world.
Regards

Eric

[Mellifera Crofter]

Hi Kitta

Don't shoot the messenger! Write and tell her to get her act together!

Eric

Sorry, Eric! I did not mean to shoot the messenger - I'm just perplexed by the message.

I am curious to know what you found inspiring about the article. Is it the abundance of bee food on her farm and the fact that it is an organic farm? Those are two plus points (even though the bees might decide to forage outside the farm boundaries). Have I missed something?

Kitta

[gavin]

Grass is the common allergenic type, but many people are also allergic to birch pollen when it flowers in April/May. Birch allergy is the main one in Scandinavia, and people allergic to it also can react to some other related trees but not larch. In the US and S Europe there is also a lot of allergy to ragweed, a plant in the daisy family, and olive too.

Lots of people believe that taking raw honey helps their hay fever. There could in theory be small quantities of airborne pollen in the honey and that might do the business, but on the other hand the few studies that looked for an effect didn't find anything. So it might help, who knows.

Eric - unbridled enthusiasm without taking care to make sure that you are right is just not good enough. This applies particularly to people making health claims. It should also apply to people making claims about agricultural technologies or beekeeping practices too.

Gavin

[Jon]

Gavin, the lady’s special quality is ENTHUSIASM.

Eric your innocence is touching.

Unfortunately the world we live in is full of new age tripe and drivel and it has nothing to do with enthusiasm or its sister concept passion.
People who make statements like this should be fined if the claims they make are are shown to be false. When you scratch the surface a bit the motivation is often greed rather than enlightenment.

I am sure the Bayer Crop Science shows great enthusiasm for increasing its year on year sales.

Damas y caballeros, disculpen la molestia, les traigo una oferta especial el día de hoy.....

One of the joys of working in Mexico is coming into contact with a never ending stream of snake oil salesmen selling little pots and potions of powders and ointment claiming to cure everything from cancer to flatulence. Often the one product treats both conditions, not to mention aches and pains as well as feelings of anxiety and low self esteem. All this for 20 pesos or special offer today, two jars for 30.

Roll up roll up. Credit cards accepted but cash preferred.

[Eric McArthur]

HI Gavin
Gavin wrote:
"Lots of people believe that taking raw honey helps their hay fever. There could in theory be small quantities of airborne pollen in the honey and that might do the business, but on the other hand the few studies that looked for an effect didn't find anything. So it might help, who knows".
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Hi Gavin
The statement you made above about pollen in honey – indicates gaps in even your vast knowledge also,of things beekeeping. There is loads of pollen in honey!
Viz: There could in theory be small quantities of airborne pollen in the honey and that might do the business
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Melittopalynology is an applied branch of Palynology dealing with the study of pollen grains in honey samples and its application in Apiculture. This seems to have slipped past you!


In the honey World, three classifications have been proposed. Honeys are deemed to be Under, Normally or Over represented. Under represented is deemed to be nectar sources that produce honeys with less than 20,000 pollen grains per 10 grams of honey. Normally represented are those with 20,000 - 100,000 pollen grains per 10 grams of honey and over represented honeys have more than 100,000 pollen grains per 10 grams. When looking at the percentages of pollen in a honey sample, the classification the various nectar sources fall into has to be taken into account. For a honey to be identified as a monofloral honey type, e.g. "clover", "manuka" etc.

Best Regards

Eric

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon

Beekeeping is an escape from the madness of this unjust world around us! If you get no such pleasure or buzz, perhaps you might try philately. It is good to be young at heart!

Rergards

Eric

[gavin]

The statement you made above about pollen in honey – indicates gaps in even your vast knowledge also,of things beekeeping. There is loads of pollen in honey!


Eric, there is no need for that. I know that there is quite a lot of pollen in honey. I also know that in the pollen loads honeybees bring back there are *some* (a few) airborne pollen grains including grass and nettle. I've seen them and counted them and reported on them. Presumably they get into the honey too.

G.

[Jon]

Hi Jon

Beekeeping is an escape from the madness of this unjust world around us! If you get no such pleasure or buzz, perhaps you might try philately. It is good to be young at heart!

Rergards

Eric

I think you are misunderstanding my point. Of course I am passionate about beekeeping, especially bee breeding and native bees.
But....I think it is important to try and avoid making false claims.
I remember on the bbka forum a couple of years ago Uncle Phil Chandler used to spend his time insulting other posters who didn't agree with him.
His acolytes excused his behaviour due to his 'passion and enthusiasm' for defending bees.
Passion and enthusiasm are great - as long as they are not coupled with a suspension of reality or belief in complete nonsense.

[Eric McArthur]

[QUOTE=gavin;3306]Eric, there is no need for that. I know that there is quite a lot of pollen in honey. I also know that in the pollen loads honeybees bring back there are *some* (a few) airborne pollen grains including grass and nettle. I've seen them and counted them and reported on them. Presumably they get into the honey too.
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Hi Gavin
Of course you did! Just that your phraseology in this instance was nearly as bad as the Daily Mail journalese that took such a pounding early on!
This thread was short and sharp and fun! I hope poor Gloria does not get wind of it Despite being much like the rest of us beekeepers – ordinary folk think we are bunch of nuts! Gloria looks too be extremely well qualified, is obviously highly intelligent and has erudite connections – viz: Among her legion of fans is Dr Milton Wainwright, senior lecturer in molecular biology at Sheffield University, author of an acclaimed book on the history of penicillin – and also of the intro to Gloria’s honey tome. (More a eulogy, actually.)
She seems to have been Waxing strong as well Lady Wax Chandler, indeed, and to boot she also donates to childrens’ charities. Some lady!
I have deemed it an honour to have had the task of defending her against the slings and arrows of the dreadful real world mentioned by a few thread contributors.
Bye the bye, did you ever contact Peter about the DVD – to listen to Jeff Pettis and van Engelsdorp’s magic words condemning imidacloprid, after they proved, by repeating the procedures carried out by the French microbiologists work pasted below, in whole colony trials that the substance, at homeopathic(untraceable) levels in conjunction with Nosema killed bee colonies?
Invoking the Precautionary Principle would be good!

Best regards
Eric
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Interactions between Nosema microspores and a neonicotinoid weaken honeybees (Apis mellifera).
Alaux C, Brunet JL, Dussaubat C, Mondet F, Tchamitchan S, Cousin M, Brillard J, Baldy A, Belzunces LP, Le Conte Y.
INRA, UMR 406 Abeilles et Environnement, Laboratoire Biologie et Protection de l'abeille, Site Agroparc, 84914 Avignon, France. cedric.alaux@avignon.inra.fr
Abstract
Global pollinators, like honeybees, are declining in abundance and diversity, which can adversely affect natural ecosystems and agriculture. Therefore, we tested the current hypotheses describing honeybee losses as a multifactorial syndrome, by investigating integrative effects of an infectious organism and an insecticide on honeybee health. We demonstrated that the interaction between the microsporidia Nosema and a neonicotinoid (imidacloprid) significantly weakened honeybees. In the short term, the combination of both agents caused the highest individual mortality rates and energetic stress. By quantifying the strength of immunity at both the individual and social levels, we showed that neither the haemocyte number nor the phenoloxidase activity of individuals was affected by the different treatments. However, the activity of glucose oxidase, enabling bees to sterilize colony and brood food, was significantly decreased only by the combination of both factors compared with control, Nosema or imidacloprid groups, suggesting a synergistic interaction and in the long term a higher susceptibility of the colony to pathogens. This provides the first evidences that interaction between an infectious organism and a chemical can also threaten pollinators, interactions that are widely used to eliminate insect pests in integrative pest management.
PMID: 20050872 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]PMCID: PMC2847190Free PMC Article

[gavin]

I also noted your faulty parenthesis when you were urging us to be inspired at the start of the thread Eric, but I didn't think it worth commenting on.

Eric is now taking this off on one of these tangents which can irritate some people and potentially occupy a lot of space with perhaps a cut-and-paste steeplechase too. For those who want to carry it on I've copied this post to the 'Environment' section and we can discuss it there. Feel free to continue to discuss enthusiastic bee-related human health claims and naive beekeeping together with snake oil salesmen here.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?397-Imidacloprid-and-Nosema (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?397-Imidacloprid-and-Nosema)

G.

[Trog]

Unfortunately the world we live in is full of new age tripe and drivel and it has nothing to do with enthusiasm or its sister concept passion..


Oh, good. I'm glad somebody else said it first :cool:

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Gavin"
As I wrote in a previous thread, in the past tense. "This thread was short and sharp and fun"!
The pesticdes issue will come back again and again, not necesarily on this Forum, and haunt us all!

Eric

[GRIZZLY]

Eric I'm ashamed of you-WHAT A LOAD OF OLD TOSH.

[Jon]

It probably says all you need to know about Gloria that she collects memorabilia of Scott of the Antarctic and Margaret Thatcher.
Yes says enough, goes down a treat at the daily mail that. Scott was no Shackleton nor was he a Amundsen, and Margret Thatcher - I would not even bother the list is so long.

Perhaps we could encourage Mrs. T and the arms dealing members of her family to do the decent thing and emulate captain Oates.

Sorry in advance Eric if she is one of your heroes but you did bring the Daily Mail into the equation!!
You will be telling me next that Jeremy Clarkson has a good sense of humour.

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Grizzly
Nice to hear from you! No two folk see the world in the same way. We all have our agendas and we are, all of us flawed. Even Gavin and I!
Gloria is in my opinion dong a marvellous PR job for the bee and doing good honest business from their products. Who knows she may have Varroa tolerant bees as well! The “Mail” is not my paper – I read the “Scots Independent” and live for the day! Despite our differing views on this subject I hope we may still remain friends.
I have done the unforgiveable and pasted stuff – sorry Gav!
Gloria does appear to have done her homework after all! See under!
Yours in the Craft
Eric
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Salient quotes:
With a degree in botany, zoology and genetics from Leicester University, Gloria initially went into teaching, before moving on to the Ministry of Agriculture.
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With her scientific background Gloria takes none of this at face value, digging deep for the research to back up what she sees for herself.
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Recently, Gloria was inducted into the City of London livery company the Worshipful Company of Wax Chandlers, one of only a handful of women to be admitted.
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ARTHRITIS: Arthritis patients may take daily, morning and night, one cup of hot water with two spoons of honey and one small teaspoon of cinnamon powder. If taken regularly even chronic arthritis can be cured.
http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/honeyandcinnamon.html
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Multiple Sclerosis
Ctiflex Plus with active manuka honey, bee venom and ginger may be a natural multiple sclerosis treatment many people are looking for. Actiflex plus seems to help relieve multiple sclerosis symptoms and pain to help increase movement and flexibility with less or no pain.
http://www.manukahoneyusa.com/multiple-sclerosis.htm
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There’s a neurotransmitter in honey called acetylcholine,
genome.cshlp.org
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AK Jones, V Raymond-Delpech, SH Thany, M Gauthier, DB Sattelle
Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) mediate fast cholinergic synaptic transmission and play roles in many cognitive processes. They are under intense research as potential targets of drugs used to treat neurodegenerative diseases and neurological disorders such as Alzheimer's disease and schizophrenia. Invertebrate nAChRs are targets of anthelmintics as well as a major group of insecticides, the neonicotinoids. The honey bee, Apis mellifera, is one of the most beneficial insects worldwide, playing an important role in crop pollination, and is also a valuable model system for studies on social interaction, sensory processing, learning, and memory. We have used the A. mellifera genome information to characterize the complete honey bee nAChR gene family. Comparison with the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster and the malaria mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows that the honey bee possesses the largest family of insect nAChR subunits to date (11 members). As with Drosophila and Anopheles, alternative splicing of conserved exons increases receptor diversity. Also, we show that in one honey bee nAChR subunit, six adenosine residues are targeted for RNA A-to-I editing, two of which are evolutionarily conserved in Drosophila melanogaster and Heliothis virescens orthologs, and that the extent of editing increases as the honey bee lifecycle progresses, serving to maximize receptor diversity at the adult stage. These findings on Apis mellifera enhance our understanding of nAChR functional genomics and provide a useful basis for the development of improved insecticides that spare a major beneficial insect species.

genome.cshlp.org
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Eczema and psoriasis
Current Research Publication: The new study investigated the use of a topical application of honey, olive oil, and beeswax for the treatment of eczema and psoriasis. Twenty-one people with eczema and 18 people with psoriasis took part in the trial. Eleven of the participants with eczema and ten of those with psoriasis were using topical steroid creams before the study.
All participants were assessed for signs of redness, scaling, skin thickening, itchiness, and oozing. Among the participants with eczema who had used no prior treatment, 80% had a significant improvement using the honey mixture; the amounts of itching, scaling, and oozing had the most profound improvements. Among those participants with eczema who had used a steroid cream prior to the study, a combination of the honey mixture and steroid cream led to substantial reductions in steroid doses in almost half of the participants. The honey mixture resulted in a marked improvement in 63% of the participants with psoriasis who had had no prior treatment. Steroid doses were reduced by up to 75% in half of the participants with psoriasis previously using steroid creams, with no deterioration in symptoms.

http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/honeyandeczema.html
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[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon

I think we are both in deep trouble here - we are both in agreement! My favourite comedian is/was Victor Borg, the Swedish classical pianist turned funny man. in the late 50s. My all time favourite funny man is Tony Blair – when he tries to come across as sincere I have to roll about on the carpet! Mrs T I can hardly bear to mouth her name!

Regards
Eric

[GRIZZLY]

Eric its as daft as the myth that bee venom can cure/ease arthrytis.How many arthrytic beekeepers do you know?.My father was a life-long sufferer from psoriasis - the cure--- U.V. - i.e sunshine.No medications worked including honey et. etc. but sunshine would diminish the symptoms to the point of total dissappearance but it would always come back !! A study group of 21 is so small that even 100% success rate doesn't count as the next 21 people could reverse the findings.Sampling should be over as large a sample group as possible - possibly thousands before difinative results can be believed.As for your "siren",she seems to have flooded your brain with positive "endorfines" or whatever you call the things.I think you must have reached that "certain age" Eric.

[Jon]

Hi Jon
I think we are both in deep trouble here - we are both in agreement!
Regards
Eric

Eric I imagine we would agree on a lot of things but I haven't caught pesticide fever yet.
I agree that Blair is a joker but the joke's not funny

[Eric McArthur]

Hi Jon
I’m happy to accept that there is common ground for our views on many aspects of beekeeping. I am reassured with your philosophy on the wicked witch of the South.
The jury is will be debating the pesticides issue at EU level soon.
I see you all you guys are on side with academic thinking. I’d like a look into the Prof’s crystal ball or perhaps he has the mirror in Snow White (see his quote below!) – wicked witches spring to mind!
I’m betting that he will ultimately have to eat the egg on his face. The imidacloprid/Nosema interaction school is gathering momentum.
As is the rebellion which has been simmering for the last three years relative to the BBKA Pesticides Sponsorships. Yorkshire Beekeepers seemingly have had a sea change. The result of the January meeting will be interesting. I’m betting a jar of honey on the result – worth about £100 up here!
A lot of stuff in this – some might even say drivel – Time will tell and as Grizzly so rightly implies I might just not have enough of that left to experience the final positive (for the anti multi school!) outcome!

Regards
Eric
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A discussion paper published by the influential Health and Consumer Policy Commissioner, John Dalli, said strategies in place or being planned included:
"Approve pesticides at EU level only if they are safe for honeybees."
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/farming-news/Clampdown-on-pesticide-use-in.6656982.jp
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Professor Francis Ratnieks of Sussex University is immediately quoted in the EU Observer, and the Malta Independent pooh-poohing the idea that pesticides might be a crucial factor in the current issueglobal bee apocalypse. It is all about habitat loss apparently - pesticides aren't really much of an issue.

[Eric McArthur]

Eric its as daft as the myth that bee venom can cure/ease arthrytis.How many arthrytic beekeepers do you know?.My father was a life-long sufferer from psoriasis - the cure--- U.V. - i.e sunshine.No medications worked including honey et. etc. but sunshine would diminish the symptoms to the point of total dissappearance but it would always come back !! A study group of 21 is so small that even 100% success rate doesn't count as the next 21 people could reverse the findings.Sampling should be over as large a sample group as possible - possibly thousands before difinative results can be believed.As for your "siren",she seems to have flooded your brain with positive "endorfines" or whatever you call the things.I think you must have reached that "certain age" Eric.


Hi Grizzly
We all live in parallel worlds and as I said we are all flawed! Just got to get on with whatever switches us on. Perhaps we could meet on neutral ground next summer and beat the subject (not Gloria!) to an amicable conclusion with a few pints – loser buys! No?
Eric

[GRIZZLY]

Hi Grizzly
We all live in parallel worlds and as I said we are all flawed! Just got to get on with whatever switches us on. Perhaps we could meet on neutral ground next summer and beat the subject (not Gloria!) to an amicable conclusion with a few pints – loser buys! No?
Eric

Now we're talking sense,good idea.

[Eric McArthur]

Now we're talking sense,good idea.

Hi Grizzly

See you in Stranraer in May! Deal!

Eric