Winter feeding and hive design

[Mellifera Crofter]

I'm a bit baffled about bees' winter feeding: I understand that the cluster of bees moves upwards as the winter progresses, which is why I have been taught to leave candy on the frames above the cluster. I also understand that we should leave them as much honey as possible as honey is a better food for bees than candy - so I left them a super-full of honey.

My question is, as they move upwards, what happens to the frames full of honey on the left and right of the cluster? Do they ever manage to get to them? And if the cluster started off in the middle of the hive and then moved, say, left, how do they then get to the honey on the right? It means they have to cross a vast desert of empty frames where they've already eaten all the food in order to get to the other side.

In a vertical hive the cluster can move to the sides by walking across the tops of the frames and avoid the colder sides of the hive - but what happens in a top bar hive where the top bars are close together? If they want to move left or right, the whole cluster has to move to the side of the hive where it is colder to get round the frames. Do they do that?

This question touches on my thoughts about hive dimensions. I'm still trying to figure out what I want - but if I think about winter feeding, then I think the best hive would be vertical with the boxes perhaps smaller than a National and more cube-like with length, width and height more equal so that the bees need only to move up and up - and they'll get to all their food with ease. (Or perhaps I could get a similar effect by using two supers instead of one, but reduce their size with follower boards?)

This is only my second winter with bees. Apologies if I'm asking dumb questions.

Kitta

[Neils]

I'd say interesting rather than dumb :)


I don't have any concrete "fact" to offer up in reply, but thoughts similar to your own were part of why I switched to 14x12 brood boxes this season. I don't personally like leaving supers on hives for a number of reasons and I thought that for my bees that a standard national was a bit small as I ended up with a lot of pollen in the first super which suggested to me that a national wasn't big enough to accommodate a natural brood nest, where I am and with my bees at least.

I wanted to be able to take off honey without having to feed syrup to the bees and so far my impression is that a 14x12 gives the bees the space they need, in a single box, to raise brood and store sufficient pollen and honey that I can regard the supers as being mine. I guess that means that I probably disagree with you that a brood box should be smaller than a current national, if only because I think (without any evidence whatsoever) that the fewer obstacles the cluster has to negotiate to get to stores the better.

Perhaps your question about the cluster moving through winter ties in nicely with a thread about frame orientation on the BBKA (http://www.britishbee.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4790) site.

[chris]

Hi MC. The first point is that the winter doesn't consist of one long freezing spell (that's autumn right now:confused:). So the cluster will have problems moving sideways only when it's extra cold during a good moment. It also depends on whether they have started a little brood rearing before the cold spell, and don't want to leave it.
Your point about hive design is very important. A brood box that fits the cluster of your particular bees is the best. That's easily said. I'll say more later but have a little look into the theory behind a Warré hive. A 1 ft. square section, 8 ins. deep. 2 boxes with the cluster in the bottom box and stores in the top, a third box added for the spring take off on top of that cold windy hill..................;)

[gavin]

I think that you win the 2010 SBAi Prize for asking smart questions, Kitta!

Chris has said much of it, although going Warré means that you lose options for swarm control and control over queens (and so breeding!).

As Chris said bees find it easier to move upwards when they are cold, as then there is warmth above the cluster, but when it is warmer then they can either form a looser cluster over a bigger area or just disperse and access all corners of the hive. That warmth can be from warmer days (maybe today in some places), and is helped by insulation and keeping hives in sunny sheltered spots.

So, food is needed over their heads when it is cold and especially when they are burning stores to keep brood warm which also obliges them to cluster on that spot. At other times they can raid stores elsewhere. Those with native bees in normal Nationals or Smiths and especially with a bit of insulation are OK if single brood boxes have plenty of stores. One super or fondant overhead would be insurance for those colonies that haven't packed their brood nest with stores and retreated downwards in autumn as they did so. Two supers or a second brood box should not be necessary, especially in Aberdeenshire with Aberdeenshire bees.

Last winter I got some of that wrong and so I'm now doing things I haven't done properly previously in my time as a beekeeper. The insulation and the food-over-the heads thing. Plus better Varroa control, I hope.

In a TBH I suspect that there would be gaps between combs and hive walls so that bees can travel from frame to frame that way. It is quite possible - with the sun on the hive for example - that there will be times when the walls are warmer than other spots outside the cluster. There was a poster on here earlier in the year - Gerry - who had tried TBHs and concluded that they are just too risky in more challenging environments in Scotland. I can imagine that they are a bit drafty and cold.

The bottom line is that the bees shouldn't need lots above their heads, but some. Insulate and keep your hives in the sun and you help them access stores elsewhere. As spring arrives they will still prefer to work upwards as the warmth is really needed for brood production, but by then the other stores ought to be more readily accessed.

The BBKA thread seemed to be the annual 'warm way or cold way' argument which gets a little added to it each time.

Gavin

[chris]

I think that you win the 2010 SBAi Prize for asking smart questions, Kitta!Gavin

If I had asked such dumb questions when I started , I'd have avoided a lot of mistakes!!


In a TBH I suspect that there would be gaps between combs and hive walls so that bees can travel from frame to frame that way.Gavin

The comb is normally attached on about the top third of the sides (is that English?)

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thank you for the replies, Nellie, Chris, and Gavin. It's good to realise that the bees will move apart a bit in search of food on warmer days - although there aren't that many warm days on our hill. I have added insulation, so that may help.

I now understand why people use 14x12, Nellie. I'll continue thinking about hive design, and read up a bit more about Warré hives.

Cheers,
Kitta

[Neils]

The BBKA thread seemed to be the annual 'warm way or cold way' argument which gets a little added to it each time.

Gavin
In the context of this thread there are also some interesting discussions on the possible effects of bees being able to move across frames which I thought relevant.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Nellie or Gavin, can you please give me the thread's name? I can't find it!
Kitta

[gavin]

http://www.britishbee.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4790

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks for the link, Gavin - but I get an error message telling me the thread has moved. I think I still need the thread's name to be able to find it.
K

[gavin]

Hi Kitta

The link works for me - but you have to be registered and your computer has to know your password to get straight there.

Try this way:

>-Intermediate and Advanced
>-A straw poll. Warm way or Cold way?

G.

[chris]

possible effects of bees being able to move across frames

I have heard from experienced beekeepers that the winter cluster won't move across a frame of pollen, and they say to put such frames at the edges. I've never seen it though.

[gavin]

I think that the point being made was that what folk call the cold way (right angles to the entrance) often means that with the bees clustering at the front (which is what mine usually seem to do, perhaps due to them pointing south and the front face being warmer) you have a mix of brood and stores on each frame. It does seem likely that colonies - especially weak ones - may find it easier to access stores on the same frame as on adjacent ones. It isn't an argument I've heard before for the 'cold way' (terrible name, no need to assume that this arrangement is colder), but it does add to the reason I do this, ease of access from either side.

G.

[Neils]

My bad, I forgot that the BBKA likes their forum in a walled garden so secure that even Apple are jealous of it.

I must admit that I don't really see why warm/cold way should make any difference when it comes to accessing or moving across stores, but maybe I'm just not thinking like a bee?

[Trog]

One year we experimented with some hives warm way and some cold. All other factors (location, size of colony) equal. The warm way colonies got off to a much quicker start and seemed to be about 2 weeks ahead of the others when we did our first spring inspection. Last year we were wintering 3 nucs in National brood boxes with full-length dummy boards and polystyrene filling the spaces where frames weren't needed. Naturally, we couldn't do these warm way as the bees would have been shut in, so they were cold way but with insulation. They all came through and were strong in the spring. Did the polystyrene prevent the sun's warmth getting through the sides? If so, the insulation seems to have made up for it.