Best scanner for morphometry

[Jon]

My current scanner is ancient and only scans at 600dpi.

I have seen the Epson v330 mentioned several times as being up to the job for morphometry and that currently costs around £80 delivered. It will also scan transparancies and negatives which is something I need to do from time to time.

Is there anything else in this price bracket, or any other scanner substantially better, if I spend a few quid more?

[Jimbo]

Hi Jon,

I use an Epson Perfection V100 which I bought on e-Bay for £50. It is the same scanner as Peter Edwards used when he demonstrated DrawWing to me. If you look at the instructions posted by Gavin I have noted the minimum requirement for a scanner.

[AlexJ]

Jon
I'm a beginner to both beekeeping and morphometry and like you noticed the V330 being mentioned as suitable for wing analysis; I bought the machine through Amazon.

Albeit I've only sampled 50 wings using DrawWing the scanner appears to have performed as described and the software analysed the wings as expected. It doesn't come with a great instructions but never-the-less is simple to use once the correct settings are applied for scanning wings (thanks to Jim/Jimbo for the advice at the Scotlandwell workshop at the weekend) it works well. If needed I can send copies of the images taken and their analysis for you to compare with other devices.

I haven't used it as yet to scan transparencies or slides. I hope this assists.

Alex

[Jon]

Thanks Jim and Alex.
I found Amazon to be cheapest as well.
At £78.20 I don't think I would save much by bidding on a second hand model and you get the 12 month guarantee as well.
I need a new scanner anyway so just want to make sure the one I get is good enough for scanning bee wings.
Talk about priorities!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0040ZP3ZI

[Jimbo]

Hi Jon,

Had a look at the Amazon scanner and it looks like a newer version of mine. The main thing is the dpi it needs to be at least 2400.

[Jon]

Hi Jim
Just ordered the v330.

There is a cheaper one, the v33 which scans at 4800 dpi but it does not have the insert for transparancy scanning which I would use.

If you just want it for bee wings (how sad is that!) it's only £60.82 delivered.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Epson-Perfection-V33-4800dpi-Scanner/dp/B0043VLLVY/ref=sr_1_4?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1291114892&sr=1-4

[Jon]

The scanner arrived this morning so I anticipate hours of fun messing around with bee wings.
Jim, those notes of yours on Drawwing made up of the screen shots are brilliant.
I set the thing up later today and do a dummy run with a few wings I have lying about.

I'll report back if I have any problems.

[Jon]

I collected a few bees today from two colonies which had been previously had wings assessed by Roger Patterson, one of them back in March and the other more recently in October. I scraped out a few dead bees from the floor of each colony.

There seems to be a good correlation between the earlier samples and the current ones independently of the scanner or the operator.
the same queen is in residence in each case.

I decided not to use 34 as a breeder colony on the basis of the earlier results due to the degree of hybridization and this is confirmed by the sample I took today.


march 489 october 487

October 488 December 486

You can see the correlations quite clearly.
In both samples colony 34 has bees with a high CI value and in both scattergrams of colony 48 there is a very negative DS value.

[Jimbo]

Hi Jon,

I hope you have lots of fun with your new scanner. The Morphplot default is set at 2.000 for CI for Amm (In the box at the bottom left of the printout). At the BIBBA morph course it was agreed this value should be changed to 2.100. When you change to 2.100 more of your plots will be in range and the %Amm will increase but the red box will remain at 2.000 I think there is an explaination in Peters notes on how to change the size of the box. I noticed in one of the plots it has been changed

[EmsE]

At long last, I've finally got round to ordering my scanner but can't seem to find any projector slides. Where is the best place to get them from?

[Neils]

Projector Slides?

If you have a projector, just plug the computer into it, no slides needed. If you've still got one of those overhead projector things that need printed acetate I think you need to smile at the treasurer and suggest that 1990 called and want their equipment back.

[gavin]

Was about to offer you a share of the half-box I have left over from the morphometry workshop, but they are quite cheap so maybe you'd rather have a full box of your own?

Gepe Glass Slide Mounts 36x24mm Anti-Newton (something to do with the laws of motion?!)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gepe-Glass-Slide-Mounts-Newton/dp/B000L9PM9Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1325287470&sr=8-2

G.

PS Nellie - I'm assuming that Ems wants to put wings in a slide mount to scan them, then process a digital image with MorphPlot or similar?

[EmsE]

Thanks Gavin, It's so much easier when you know what to look for- now ordered so need to get some bees in the freezer. The weather is really mild here so it should be ok to collect some.


If you've still got one of those overhead projector things that need printed acetate I think you need to smile at the treasurer and suggest that 1990 called and want their equipment back.
lol:D They've gone high tech in our LA now and use a computer for the presentations:)

[Jimbo]

Hi EmsE,

You mentioned scanner. Are you scanning the wings onto a computer and using DrawWing? If you are then you will require microscope slides (I can send you some if required). If you are mounting wings into projector slides you can either project them onto a wall or scan them and use the BeeMorph software. For the older BeeMorph software I just placed the wings between two photocopy acetate sheets (I can also send a few of these if required). I would not open your bee cluster at this time of year but if you need some bees to set up your scanner I would pick some dead ones from the floors. I usually sample my bees in the spring when they are building up and again in the autumn. If you require any assistance or help in setting up of scanning your wings just PM me

[gavin]

Yeah, I should have said DrawWing as Morphplot is just to plot the data.

Jimbo, are you saying that DrawWing can't take scans from slide mounts, or is it just that you find it easier to use two microscope slides? As long as your scanner works at the appropriate resolution (2400x2400dpi?) it should be fine I reckon - but I could see that micrsocope slides would be easier on a flat-bed scanner.

[Jimbo]

Hi Gavin,

I have never used slide mounts for DrawWing but Ben has tried and he had problems. I find that you need the type of scanner that can scan positive and negative slides eg I use an Epson V100 but Enid has used the newer Epson V300 that costs about £80. I find it easier to place the wings in a row along the microscope slide. I place 8 wings per slide and cover with another slide to keep them in place. I usually scan about 24 wings (3 slides) at a time and save each scan in the same folder. I have found that if there are too many wings in each scan some computers struggle to process all the images. Bens computer is like this and all he does is reduce the number of wings in each scan. If you don't have a slide scanner any scanner with the resolution you stated should work. I have a brother printer/scanner and can scan up to 50 wings by placing them between two A4 photocopy actetate sheets but DrawWing won't work with this method. I then have to use BeeMorph. I much prefer the DrawWing software as the results are more reproducable and also quicker.

[Rosie]

I put my wings directly on the platten and cover them with a microscope slide. I can get 18 wings under each slide and scan 2 slides at a time. When using DrawWing I think it's important to use step-by-step mode because the automatic mode does a poor job of placing the cross hairs. I used to use 2400DPI but recently switched to 4800DPI but haven't noticed much improvement.

My scanner is an epson perfection V330. I used to use a V300 until I tripped over a lead and dragged it off the bench. I can't see any difference between the 2 scanners apart from a small amount of silvering on V300 casing.

Rosie

[Peter]

Hi everyone

My (fairly comprehensive) notes on using DrawWing and MorphPlot are detailed on the instructions page on MorphPlot which you can download from here: http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.homecall.co.uk/
Like Rosie, I put the wings on the bed of the scanner and cover them with a microscope slide - 15 wings per slide. I see no point in sandwiching them between two slides - just increases the amount of glass that the light has to travel through.
Same with slide mounts, which I have found very unsatisfactory due to the problems of mounting - you must not use any tape as the wings have to be separate in the image and strips of tape give a shadow that joins them together.
Using a projector will, I think, give very poor accuracy compared to DrawWing as will other programs which just see the vein junction as lines. With DrawWing the magnification is so great that the veins look like converging roads and you can put the landmark where the mini-roundabout would be! If you think that is going OTT for accuracy, just try moving the landmark a minute amount and see what effect it has on CI and DsA - you will be surprised!
Dave Cushman used to berate me for not saving the wings mounted in slides (for the day when new and better technology arrived!); I replied that I would not be going back and re-scanning the wings of long dead queens, but if anyone wanted to save the wings then they could be filed in a small packet - no need to use expensive Gepe mounts.
Agree that 4800dpi seems to give no advantage at all.
Happy New Year to you all!
Peter

[susbees]

Got the V330 here....still in the box after rather more months than I'll admit to. Must take you up on your kind offer of a "workshop" before much longer Rosie.

[Rosie]

Hi Susbees

I have been booked to speak to your people in April so we could use that to drum up some interest in a workshop.

All the best

Rosie

[Jon]

I place 18-20 wings on to a microscope slide then set another slide carefully on top before placing it in the scanner.
You have to be careful not to move the slides while setting them on the scanner as you will end up with wings touching which means they will not be scanned.
2400 dpi seems to be plenty.
With AMM a small change in the position of points 0, 1 and 3 can make quite a difference to the value obtained as the distance between point 1 and point 3 tends to be very short in AMM compared to races such as carnica.
Drawwing often places point zero too far to the right which gives an artificially high CI value.

Edit for clarity - CI is calculated by dividing the distance between point 1 and point 3 by the distance between point 0 and point 1 so moving zero nearer to 1 raises the CI

[gavin]

Isn't it great to have such expertise on tap? Thanks everyone.

My scanner is an old HP slide scanner which purportedly works at 2400 x 2400 (and needs these Gepe slides) but I have to say that my few forays into morphometry have been a bit frustrating as DrawWing didn't really work as it should. Hope to try again in the next few days.

[susbees]

Yup, I heard Rosie. Got to get through the AGM....could be Sec by April. Be good. MS is so neckdeep in the intricacies of the Improvement Group we're on self-learn atm and I'm trying to fit in (badly) cramming for Module 7 along with everything else.

[EmsE]

Hi EmsE,

You mentioned scanner. Are you scanning the wings onto a computer and using DrawWing? If you are then you will require microscope slides (I can send you some if required). If you are mounting wings into projector slides you can either project them onto a wall or scan them and use the BeeMorph software. For the older BeeMorph software I just placed the wings between two photocopy acetate sheets (I can also send a few of these if required). I would not open your bee cluster at this time of year but if you need some bees to set up your scanner I would pick some dead ones from the floors. I usually sample my bees in the spring when they are building up and again in the autumn. If you require any assistance or help in setting up of scanning your wings just PM me
Thanks Jimbo,

Which programme was used in Scotlandwell or did we see both? I think I should be using the one where I mark the points on the wing (rather than the computer doing it for me) so that I can practise getting the points in the right place.
I'll give the projector slides a try first as the wings would be secure if I was disturbed whilst in the middle of trying to prepare them. If it doesn't work I'll raid the kids microscope set (They'll enjoy looking at the wings on the computer anyway).

I'm hoping that when I move the bees on Saturday, a few (well >30) will come out of the entrance when I take the foam out for me to collect.

[Jimbo]

Hi EmsE,

There was 3 methods demonstrated. 1.placing wings on slides and projecting onto a wall. 2. BeeMorph was demonstrated by John D and 3. DrawWing demonstrated by myself.
With DrawWing you have the option of the computer placing the points or using the step by step mode where the computer places the points but you can move them if the computer fails to place them correctly. When I scan wings I use the step to step mode. In my opinion DrawWing is the easier software to use and takes out some of the operator error

[neilr]

I recently purchased a second hand epson v330 on eBay. I mounted neat rows of ten wings times three directly onto the glass bed of scanner then placed microscope slides carefully on top of them. I scanned with scanner auto mode and got dismal results. For one, it thought the wings were a colour document and the scan itself was of poor quality and had shadows on each wing. DrawWing program didn't accept the scan so it looks like I will set the scan manually to black & white and at it's highest dpi resolution. I now think from reading the other posts that thirty on one scan may be too much for the program to handle so I will try three sets of ten individually. Hopefully my next post will tell of my success! Great thread this, Neil

[Rosie]

Neil,

It should handled 30 wings with ease. Did you have the scanner set to transparency mode?

Rosie

[The Drone Ranger]

Morphometry ??

I'd recommend a brain scanner

[Jimbo]

Tried that, also our MRI scanner and the scanners at the Tesco self service. Nothing else worked except the Epson V100 or Epson V330. Good to see you posting again DR.

[gavin]

LOL! And at 6:22 in the morning too ....

[The Drone Ranger]

I have an Epson V500 that has a film scanner attachment for slides
Also a Film scanner made by Silverline that's really small and easy to store and use that was LIDL I think
they both work
Anybody recommend a good freezer for killing things they they just fly out after a spell in ours
Also the same is happening with the bats (they are a real challenge to morphometry)
Can anybody recommend a good glue for sticking the wings back on around 1000 bees sampled from my 20 hives
Don't know if the RSPCA recommend one or not
Beekeeping was getting boring till I discovered wing collecting

[gavin]

I love the way folk are just winging it on this thread.

Effect of pesticides on wing morphometry anyone? Must be the great overlooked factor for bee losses, don't you think?

[Jimbo]

Has Jon and Rosie not covered that in the post on finding extra bits added on or missing from some wing patterns at points 18, 0 and 3.
May as well blame pesticides for changing the vein patterns.

[The Drone Ranger]

I love the way folk are just winging it on this thread.

Effect of pesticides on wing morphometry anyone? Must be the great overlooked factor for bee losses, don't you think?

If you don't like waiting just drop the bees directly into surgical spirit --instant death and the wings are fine.
No pesticides involved just necessary cruelty
AMM to AWM (a wing missing) in no time

[gavin]

Has Jon and Rosie not covered that in the post on finding extra bits added on or missing from some wing patterns at points 18, 0 and 3.
May as well blame pesticides for changing the vein patterns.

The weakened wings obviously mean that they can't find their way back. And the phone mast signals have a short, with sparking and all sorts of trouble.

Jimbo had a strong call for poster of the week there, Drone Ranger crept up rapidly while no-one was looking, but Rosie still has it by a Hantel shift.

Sorry for further diverting the thread. Slapped wrists.

[Jon]

AMM to AWM (a wing missing) in no time

Yea but with the Imidacloprid they mutate so that still leaves 17 wings 2 stomachs and 12 legs per bee. **

**evidence not needed, I can feel it in my bones.

[Wraith]

I have my scanner, I have the software, I need to kill some bees ( sounds odd to do it ) then prepare for a barrage of hopefully not so stupid questions :D

[Jimbo]

Wraith, A wee tip. Don't scoop up the queen! (It has been known) If you check back through the posts I think there is a method to collecting a good sample of young bees for morphometry

[Wraith]

Queens are all marked so no chance of that, Touch wood :) I did the two shake method when collecting some for Rosie, first shake to remove older bees and second shake to collect younger, seemed to of worked I got 3 torn wings out of the 32 sampled

[Beefever]

Hi everyone
Sorry to resurrect this thread at a late stage but I think it’s time I moved away from projecting bee wings on the wall and got a scanner and associated Draw Wing. Is the Epson v330 still the best all round scanner to get? (I’ve noticed other models mentioned but not other makes of scanner) I take it I need a scanner that will scan with incident light for film (rather than reflective light for prints) and at least 2400 or 4800dpi for image quality. Have I grasped that correctly? Also will Draw Wing and Morph Plot work with windows 7 ?
Thanks for any advice.

[Peter]

Yes to all that.

The instruction sheet in MorphPlot should give you all the info that you need both for MorphPot and DrawWing - but do follow all the directions carefully.

[Jon]

I am still using a V330. I scan at 2400 dpi.
For ordinary scanning/photocopying there is a white screen insert which you put in the scanner.

These are the settings I use

1401

[Beefever]

Thanks chaps for your replies. Getting one of these should make things easier. I might even artex the walls now!!!

[Jon]

I see amazon are charging £107 now

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Epson-Perfection-Photo-Scanner-4800dpi/dp/B0040ZP3ZI

I got mine for £78 including delivery from Amazon 2 years ago. Might be better offers elsewhere.

i see the newer version is cheaper

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Perfection-Photo-scanner-ReadyScan-technology/dp/B009EOPQD4/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

[Beefever]

Thanks for the link Jon. PC World list them cheaper but don’t appear to have any and sites such as price runner list cheaper retailers (£80) but when you go into customers feedback……..er…….maybe not!

[Kate Atchley]

I'm new to morphometry and about to buy a scanner. It seems the Epson V370 has replaced the v33/V330 series, though they can still be found. Anyone tried this later model and able to can give feedback?

Both V330 and V370 operate on Mac (my preferred system). Anyone know if Drawwing is Mac compatible? (Have emailed them too.)

I'm trying to avoid having to replace my ancient Windows laptop which I have to use for MemoryMap and leading hillwalks. Perhaps for this too?

I think the bees will make it out today ... patchy sunshine and nearly 7 degrees already.

Kate

[Kate Atchley]

Above: "Anyone know if Drawwing is Mac compatible? (Have emailed them too.)"

Wow, that was quick. DrawWing tell me it doesn't work on Mac. Disappointing but not surprising I guess.

Kate

[Neils]

Depending on your mac, you can install windows on to it using 'boot camp' and/or use something like VMware or parallels to run windows from within OSX which would then let you run drawwing.

I'm a fully paid up member if the Cult of Jobs so if you need any more info let me know.

[Kate Atchley]

Thanks Neils
I'm tempted to take this route ... watch this space!
Kate

[Neils]

If you've got a windows disk setting up bootcamp is very straightforward and lets you choose when your mac starts up whether you want to boot windows or OSX.

Going the VMWare/parallels route can be more flexible because you can run the windows programmes from within OSX so you still have all your mac stuff available, but you do need a reasonable spec mac for it not to run very slowly. Both work well but will cost you an extra £40-50.

How old is your mac and are you running one of the newer versions of OSX?

If you aren't sure, click on the apple icon in the top left of the screen and select 'about this mac' and paste that info into here.