Feeding Fondant

[Gscot]

Just to give peace of mind I want to give some fondant for extra feed."Is the fondant in the supermarkets suitable?"It has sugar,glucose, vegetable oil ,glycarine and water as the main ingredients but has a few trace ingredients

[Jon]

The best stuff to get is bakers fondant as sold by the likes of Bako.
It's sold in 12.5k boxes which cost around ten quid depending upon how many you buy.
Check with your local baker and you can probably get a box.

[Pete L]

I agree,same as Jon....Bako if you have a depot near you,you can find this out from there website,or from BFP Wholsale,but many local bakeries can be helpful in getting some for you. Contains just sugar glucose and water.

[GRIZZLY]

I bought some with vegetable oil in it - the bees wouldn't touch it.

[Gscot]

Bought 4 packets at the weekend at £2.10 a kg. from Tesco.If they do take it "do you think it will do them any harm?"

[Calum]

could do, depends on what is in there with the rest that is below the x% of total weight that have to be listed (along the lines of may contin nuts). It only takes a very little of something toxic to kill a whole colony - that may well be of no concequence for human consumtion.
I just read about some guy that killed all his colonies by accident as he used grass from his garden to give the bees something to walk on in his liquid feed buckets.. It seems there was a poisonus plant in there with the grass that the sugar solution soaked up...
Cant be too careful. Also on the german forums there is talk of another guy that got sugar from a confectionary company that killed all his bees..

[Gscot]

Managed to make my own fondant using glucose and sugar . Its in the hives now and they seem to be taking it o.k.
No point in taking chances. So far even after the extreme weather the bees are surviving.

[Calum]

feeding already? Dire straits! something not right there..

[POPZ]

feeding already? Dire straits! something not right there..

Oh Calum sounds like a bit of doom and gloom there!!! Maybe better to play safe than very sorry later - say March??

[Calum]

nope not at all.
If there are enough stores why unnaturally stimulate the bees ?
My worry would be that feeding now could encourage early brood (and varroa) production at totally the wrong time of year.
Also the bees use up their energy (and longevity) processing and storing fondant.
No there is nothing natural at all about additional feeding now, and if there is no need it is just additional stress on the colony.

I would try to avoid feeding fondant in March too, I'd prefer to hang full food frames from a colony with sufficient stores in a 'light' hive.
If I am informed correctly the bees require water to process fondant - so feeding fondant increases the flying time of the last remaining bees that need their energy for raising the next generation. And if feeding is done to promote brood production this is nought without enough pollen flow.
If you need to feed now (ie they are starving) you did a very poor job in August / Sept feeding. Or skimped on feed - which is frankly stupid - the bees give so much to us in honey and enjoyment- I remember my fellow scots as always being generous. & one could say that skimping on feeding is borderline cruelty.
ok rant over...
Doing less with (or too) the bees is often much more. They know what they are doing, I think a really good beekeeper observes and steps in at the right time to give a helping hand. I am trying to be a good beekeeper.

[Rosie]

If I am informed correctly the bees require water to process fondant - so feeding fondant increases the flying time of the last remaining bees that need their energy for raising the next generation. And if feeding is done to promote brood production this is nought without enough pollen flow.
If you need to feed now (ie they are starving) you did a very poor job in August / Sept feeding. Or skimped on feed - which is frankly stupid -

I think you are being a bit hard there Calum. I'm sure bees need water to process fondant but they also need it to process stored honey. Furthermore they would not store fondant at this time of year - they will just consume what they need and when they are out of reach of honey.

I weigh my hives in the Autumn and just feed the light ones and feed just enough to get them through the winter. This year though they had such a poor late summer and Autumn that they had no young bees when I fed them and they used most of the feed converting it to young winter bees. I ran out of time and couldn't get enough weight into some of them so they have been given fondant in the last few days in plenty of time to feed them when they start laying again.

It's easy to criticise from afar but every colony is different and every location is different and every season is different. It's up to the beeekeeper to adjust his management to suit prevailing conditions and if that means feeding fondant at Christmas then that's what you must do.

Rosie

[POPZ]

Calum all you say sounds pretty good and I think that nowadays many of us also reckon to be keepers as opposed to farmers. Leaving enough winter stores for the colony is essential but if they are clustering too hard and cannot reach some of those stores they may well starve whilst surrounded by honey. And as Rosie has just said, if they have sufficient stores and can use them, they are unlikely to go for fondant.

I use open mesh floors with a board below on the ground underneath. A daily inspection shows where and the amount, that the ladies are eating by the position and quantity of crumbs that drop through. Plenty of crumbs so far this year, so not eating the fondant yet.

I think adding fondant at this time of the year is 'keeping', it is trying to cover all eventualaties (can't spell it!). Time will tell!

[Calum]

Hi Rosie,
you are maybe right there I may be being a bit hard, but I really do believe that there is alot of faffing about that does the bees no good at all.

It would suprise me though if the fondant is closer to the bees than the feed on the frames they are sitting on. Also there is a danger of fondant attracting moisture/ evaporation in the hive and dripping on the winter bunch which is really unhealthy for them.
Sure if your bees are starving feed them, if not leave them be. Or let a weak one go and use its stores to strengthen others.

I appreciate your point about every area being different, here was a poor year aswell. Every one of my colonies got between 12 and 18kg of feed, some took 28kg providing me with spares for emergancies. A good colony will take the feed they need for the winter in two days. If a colony were so far behind as you describe I'd consider combining.

On saturday I'll be visiting two local beekeepers here that have 480 and 320 carnica colonies. The latter overwinters all his colonies on 6 Zander frames (477 mm x 220 mm)- and where his bees are -20°C over extended periods is quite normal. They dont need much to get by on.

You may be right I may be wrong, foremost I want to make people stop and think before they do something that they might otherwise assume without question is a good thing for their bees.

[Calum]

Leaving enough winter stores for the colony is essential but if they are clustering too hard and cannot reach some of those stores they may well starve whilst surrounded by honey.
mmm how does fondant above the frames help against this - unless the bee space between two brood boxes on top of each other too great and the fondant is placed inbetween? If the cluster is too small to move around between frames, is not starvation in this case is a secondary cause and not the root cause of the loss?


I think adding fondant at this time of the year is farming, it is trying to cover all eventualaties (can't spell it!). Time will tell!
I understand but I think it carries its own risks and may not be helpful or needed in most cases. As a last resort fine, but otherwise a practice that can be harmful.

Here in Germany the prevailing thinking on winter and spring feeding to 'stimulate' colonies is viewed as counterproductive by the bee insitutes.

[Rosie]

Here in Germany the prevailing thinking on winter and spring feeding to 'stimulate' colonies is viewed as counterproductive by the bee insitutes.

I have always believed that thin syrup stimulated egg laying because is simulates a nectar flow. I've never heard of fondant being used to stimulate anything - apart from survival. I agree with you that in an ideal world you would not need fondant or even syrup in the Autumn. In fact if the bees had no excuse for not being able to look after themselves it could be argued that they should be allowed to die but the deal I have with my bees is that I help them in the occasional bad year and they give me a surplus in good ones. On the whole I do best out of the deal.

Rosie

[Calum]

Hallo Rosie,
yes I agree that syrup is more likely to start of laying, that is why I was careful to just say feeding rather than specifying what was being fed (so no to winter feeding and no to spring stimulation).
Colonies that are well prepared in late august or early september should need no feed just now in any form. Even if one colony was slow on the uptake or put the feed straight into brood production it could have been helped out with frames of stores from a stronger colony (assuming the stronger colony would be fed more). Of course this relies on feeding the colonies before the summer surplus begins to die off (and lare aug and early sept has to be adjusted for latitude and seasonal variations).

As said I would always try to save a starving colony preferably with a frame of food or with fondant as a last resort.

I want to provoke thought and dicussion about the need to give fondant especially during a period when the bees need their peace and quiet.
Also if they really need it now then feeding fondant only addresses the symptom not the cause.

[Rosie]

Hi Calum
I would not take issue with much of that but I weigh all my colonies at intervals during the winter and have quite a good idea of how much they need. I knew that I had failed to get enough stores into a few of them in the Autumn so took the opportunity of slapping on 3kg of fondant while I had the hives open for oxalic acid treatment. They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years.

People often try to tell me that cold weather causes stores to be consumed more quickly but I never see that. I think stores are mainly consumed when there is brood around and cold weather reduces egg laying and hence makes the food go further.

Rosie

[Gscot]

Being an novice beekeeper and trying to do the right thing and getting most of my information via. the internet
Jobs to do for January...... Check bees have enough feed and if on the top frames feed fondant... I got this from a scottish beekeeping tip.My bees were on the top frames.
I fed them in Sep,Oct. with as much sugar syrup as they would take and the super was full.
With my inexpierance as a beekeeper and not being able to tell from lifting the hive for weight and been told not to open the hive and remove frames in cold conditions It was just to give pease of mind. Number 1 reason for loosing bees.....Starving to death....I got this from another beekeeping tip.
The hive was choking with bees and I thought The more bees in the hive the more feed they will eat.

[Calum]

Hi Gscot,
it is really tough to judge the state of your hives when you start out, I remember well.
I'd suggest weighing empty equipment to work out the weight of your hives and frames.
Once you have done that you can use a spring scale (http://www1.halsun.net/product/scale/pull-spring-scale/original/PK-100.jpg) to work out the weight of your (full) hives.
The difference is the weight of stores and bees in your colony give or take.
Dont forget lifting one side up only gives half the weight!

Larger winter nests use less feed as they are more efficient at keeping themselves warm apparently. But they rapidly use up stores in spring though as they can produce more brood due to their numbers (something to watch in March).
If you have not put the fondant on yet I would weigh your colonies, or just try lifting one end up - if they are about the same weight or more than a case of beer they are fine for now (you can always feed in Feb.) - unless your gear is really heavy.


This will provoke some discussion but number one killer of bees is poor beekeeping, number two varroa (often the result of reason number one).

You'll find that if you get two beekeepers together and ask them a question you will get three answers and an argument. There are many paths to Rome as they say, bees thankfully can be quite robust and put up with alot of interference.

oh and dont beleive anything you read in the internet (unless I wrote it of course :) ). There are so many conflicting opinions you'll end up confused and unsure - better team up with a experienced beekeeper in your area and follow his methods religiously untill you are happy to try out other methods you feel are logical and in line with your ideas for keeping bees.

Rosie,
"They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years."
My point exactly I#d just leave them and give them some feed in Feb or early March on a warm day - only if they need it and then when they need it!

[Rosie]

Rosie,
"They did not need the fondant at that stage but I knew they would before the next nectar flow so it saved me having to disturb them a second time. Just out of interest I can tell you that one apiary of 13 colonies had consumed less than 1kg of stores each during the months of November and December. This was in spite of the coldest December for 100 years."
My point exactly I#d just leave them and give them some feed in Feb or early March on a warm day - only if they need it and then when they need it!

Calum, I fear you are weakening your argument now by getting a wee bit pedantic. The choice between feeding while the hive was open and feeding later in the faint hope that the bees might have an exceptional winter and not need the feed is a matter of personal preference rather than a reasoned argument. By "faint hope" I really mean it as it would be the frst time in about 120 colony winters that they will have got by on such low stores. I would happily concede that I should have fed more in the autumn but we can't all be perfect all the time.

Rosie

[Calum]

Hi Rosie
you might be right there. Today I am visiting a guy that brings his bees through the Bavarian winter (which is probably easier as it is colder) on 9kg of feed per colony held on six frames in polysteyerine boxes out in fields. He has >300 colonies.
If you had been adding frames of food instead of placing fondant on top of the frames I would have been less concerned.
A supplier here came up with an interesting alternative -they supply fondant in thick polythene packaging. These fit exactly in a frame and can be held in place with tape. They are hung in frames, the pothythene is punctured so the feed can be placed right next to the winter nest. And no worries about the fondant sucking up moisture and it dripping on the winter nest. As the package has a limited feeding area the bees don't bother trying to store it in frames - so I am told - I have not tried them out myself.
Whatever happens I hope your bees pull through!

[Jon]

I have lost two small nucs due to isolation starvation.
Each had a slab of fondant immediately above the cluster.
We had a week of temperatures down to -14 at night with maximums of -6 during the day.
Fondant is no help at all in temperatures like this.
If the temperature is + 6-8 degrees they will process it and maybe even store a little in cells.
If it is really cold and the cluster is not in direct contact with liquid honey stores, it will starve.

[Trog]

I put candy on the feed holes only after the temperature climbed to a balmy 3 degrees! This sort of weather is very challenging for bees that are used to mild, wet winters, I suspect. I see the weather's due to warm up again at the end of the week so I'll maybe top up with more fondant if necessary. My lot just aren't used to 'proper' winters so I hope they make it.

[Jon]

Hi Trog.
At the last count I still had 19 colonies alive after the extremely cold spell but I do expect to lose a couple more of the weaker ones.
Isolation starvation happens at times and I don't think there is much you can do about it.
I think it happens more in small colonies where heat generation is a problem and the bees just can't move around.

[Alvearium]

Wintering the bees in this sort of prolonged cold spell needs bees that are able to sit tight for long periods and not needlessly rear brood at the wrong times. I am sure there is an inherited element to this but it also requires an optimum cluster size. Our locally adapted native bees have probably evolved this. Berhard Mobus did quite a bit of work on this aspect of wintering in the 1970s and put it down to problems with water balance within the cluster. He presented a paper to Apimondia on this in 1977, I think. Papers on this can bee found in the BIBBA publication 'Pedigree Bee Breeding in Western Europe'.

After doing a mid-winter Oxalic Acid trickle treatment, if the cluster is close to the top of the frames I place a couple thin sticks across and a block of fondant directly over the cluster. Then I cut a piece of porous membrane (the sort from garden centres used to keep down weeds) cover things up then some insulating material and a crown board with mesh or a travelling screen. It is not good practice to simply place the candy over the feed hole. Free access and movement under the insulation is essential. The membrane material stops bees getting entangled in the kind of insulation I use.

Alvearium

[Trog]

That's interesting, but I'm wary of removing the crown board in winter. My bees have never had any trouble using candy placed over the feed hole though in early spring they did tend to build comb up to it for easy access. I see Thursday's forecast to be warmer so hope they'll be able to get outside for a comfort break. There are moths on the window just now so it's clearly warmer than it's been for many a day. I do worry about the bees in such extremely cold weather, though; Mull bees are adapted to long spells of wet but mild weather (winter and summer alike!!). Minus 9 or even below freezing for a fortnight is not what they're accustomed to!