Super Frame Choices

[Neils]

Just starting to price up my beekeeping wish list for next year and was just musing on Super frame choices.

Currently I use mainly SN1 frames (7/8inch top bar width) with a couple of SN4 Hoffman type frames I managed to pick up cheap. But was wondering what other people's frame of choice for supers was and why.

[Jimbo]

Hi Nellie,

When I first started I was advised to use Hoffman frames, however I inherited some Manley frames which are good but I am changing all my Hoffman frames to straight SN1's. When they are fitted with foundation I fit a short plastic spacer so the bees can draw out the foundation. Once the foundation is drawn out I change the spacer to a wide spacer. The reason for this is if you have a lot of supers to extract by having wider spacers you need 1 less frame in the super but the bees will draw out the already drawn foundation a little bit further so although you have 1 less frame the amount of honey in the super increases. The other advantage is when you come to uncapping it is a lot easier as the cappings usually stand proud of the frames edge. When you have a lot of supers to extract that 1 less frame per super also makes the job quicker. The worst frames in a super is the Hofmans as it is difficult to upcap the honey. Hoffmans should only be kept for brood boxes in my opinion.

[GRIZZLY]

I tend to use S.N.1's on narrow spacers but have used Manley .When I've got drawn comb I will fit 9 slot castellated runners to the super.This makes extraction quicker as like Jimbo the wider drawn frames are easier to uncap.The advantage of castellated runners over wide spacers is not having to remove the spacers at extraction time then having to replace them after extraction.I only use Hofmans in the brood box. I've had to extract the odd deep and I had to use an uncapping fork on the Hofman frames which is both time consuming and messy.

[Neils]

Good point about spacing, I used Plastic Spacers at the moment. I do still have a couple of supers with castellated spacers but I don't really like them very much so despite plastic ends being fiddlier I actually prefer them.

I haven't use foundation in my supers this year but don't recall a problem with the hoffman frames, can at least just cut those out into cut comb I guess.

Also start out on very narrow spacing when starting off, then increase to "wide" on narrow spacers and then move up to wide spacing. Found that foundationless comb survives an extractor reasonably well if you start off gently so I've got a couple of supers worth of existing comb to start off with next year.

[EmsE]

Hi Nellie,

I've heard others say they're not keen on the castellated spacers either. I haven't had chance to use mine yet as I only had foundation to work from this year but would be interested in what it is you don't like about them. (weighing up options when I put my next hive together from santa).

[Neils]

Couple of things really. Inevitably you'll have the wrong ones on the super for the frames that you have. 8,9 and even 10 frame spacers don't work very well with foundation in my experience as they leave far too much room for the bees to draw so you can end up with one frame drawn out loads at the expense of others. if you start off with 11 frame spacers then you have to take the super off and either have a spare with 10,9,8 frame spacers on or stick the frames somewhere to replace the spacer that's on the super.

With plastic spacers I can start off with 13-14 frames on narrow plastic spacers set narrow and then widen them out as the bees draw wax before moving on to wide spacers and doing the same thing.

There's also the small matter that I find frames in castellated spacers fiddly to get out especially once the bees start to propolise around them.

The main advantage as already noted is when you come to putting frames in extractors you don't have to fanny around getting the plastic ends off the frames first.

[GRIZZLY]

You DON'T use castellated spacers with foundation.You wait until the bees have drawn out the supers on NARROW spacers first.After extraction you can then put the frames back either on wide plastic spacers which limits you to 10 frames per super OR on castellated spacers which means you can reduce to 9 frames per super.This saves frames but gives a greater weight of honey per super.Also makes uncapping easier and, as I use a 9 frame radial extractor,I can extract a complete super at a time and don't have a few frames left to finish extracting the box.You don't need to move super frames about when on the hive unlike the brood box where it is necessary to shuffle frames sideways during routine examinations.

[Neils]

That's probably part of why I don't like them, was advised to use them with foundation. Even using comb I still don't like them very much. The time I save not having to remove plastic ends is taken up trying to get the frames out of the castellated spacers.

They're beekeeping marmite as far as I'm concerned, you either love them or hate them and I fall into the latter camp. When you're in a position of having limited kit in your first couple of years they're a royal PITA.

There is also a point to be made that precise spacing in supers isn't that important compared to the brood chamber so if you want to reduce to 9 or even 8 frames without castellated spacers (or plastic ends for that matter) then it isn't that hard to achieve once you've got drawn comb in the supers.

[EmsE]

Divided opinion :D It's probably better then to wait until I have some drawn comb to give them a try before deciding how to make up any new supers. If this year is anything to go by I won't be in any rush for them anyway. Would it be difficult to change the castellated spacers to runners in supers already built?

[Neils]

It's a couple of minutes to swap over normal runners to spacers and vice versa.

try em out by all means, just because I don't like them doesn't mean that you wont either and for a couple of quid a shot, it's hardly the most expensive experiment in the world :)

[Rosie]

Would it be difficult to change the castellated spacers to runners in supers already built?

I can be if the castellated spacers are fitted to a national box. They are sometimes nailed to the inside surface but others trap them between the outside of the box wall and the hand grip rail. In that case find it's best to hammer them flat unless they can simply be pulled out. If they are nailed in they are really difficult to remove without damaging the woodwork.

Rosie

[gavin]

My beekeeping started off with second hand stuff and - in those dark days long ago before biosecurity was the rage - including super frames. That, plus my general inability to get properly organised before a visit to Thornes, means that I've tried every kind of super frame there is. I've even had honey in some.

Manleys for me, Hoffman is OK. I also use plastic metal ends as they were once called and I can see the appeal, but they are fiddly. What really gets my goat is the assumption by the suppliers in recent years that we are all going to use castellated spacers. They are an abomination. Supers are supposed to have frames pushed together tight when containing foundation, and spaced more widely when built out. You can't do that when you have to drop the frame down a slot. Furthermore frames are supposed to be pushed sideways into space before lifting out to avoid crushing bees.

[EmsE]

What really gets my goat is the assumption by the suppliers in recent years that we are all going to use castellated spacers. .
When I got my first hive it came with castellated spacers for the supers and as a beginner I didn't know any better when I built it up. It wasn't until I went to the classes that winter that I realised I would need some with runners for the following season as i didn't have any drawn comb.

[Pete L]

I like to use hoffman frames in the brood box's and castellated ten spacing in the supers....which is the same spacing as used with manley,these draw nice size combs,which are just right for doing cut comb as well,perfect fit in those little cut comb containers, regards thickness of comb. I only need to to touch these combs once....and thats when i'm removing them to extract,which i have never found any problem with really.

[EmsE]

What are people's views on the Manley frames? I've heard good things about them, nothing negative so far, yet the SN1 frames seem to be more popular.

[Jimbo]

Hi EmsE,

I have experience of all 3 types of super frames. I started with Hoffman spacers which I would not recommend for a super but good for the brood. box. The problem is trying to cut off the cappings from a hoffman. I inherited 6 supers of Manley frames that I like as you get a lot of honey deposited in each frame and are easier to uncap. I also have SN1's which in the first year with foundation and narrow spacers were ok and again easier to uncap. The SN1's that have been drawn out I replace the narrow spacer with a wide spacer which means 1 less frame in the super but you collect more honey and the frames willl be drawn out further. All this is not that important if you only have a few colonies but when you scale up and have a lot of supers to extract it can make a difference. The only difference I have found between the Manley and the SN1 other than the price is the Manley tend to be a tighter fit in the super and sometimes need to be prised out of the super

[EmsE]

Thanks Jimbo, and one day I will get some use ot of my supers to then decide between wide (metal)plastic ends or castellated. One question about brood frames (which may have no bearing on anything but it is bugging me) is why don't they design Hoffman frames to be the same width all the way down and why do they have 1 side pointed & 1 side flat?

[Jon]

why don't they design Hoffman frames to be the same width all the way down and why do they have 1 side pointed & 1 side flat?

It stops the bees sticking them together with propolis the whole way down. I think the pointy and flat business is also to do with minimising the chance to use propolis by reducing the surface areas in contact with each other.

[Bridget]

Manleys for me, Hoffman is OK. I also use plastic metal ends as they were once called and I can see the appeal, but they are fiddly. What really gets my goat is the assumption by the suppliers in recent years that we are all going to use castellated spacers. They are an abomination. Supers are supposed to have frames pushed together tight when containing foundation, and spaced more widely when built out. You can't do that when you have to drop the frame down a slot. Furthermore frames are supposed to be pushed sideways into space before lifting out to avoid crushing bees.

Gavin - have just got some Manleys and foundation to go in them. Do you assemble them the same as frames with wired foundation.
Also can you mix wired and Manleys in the same super to give some honey for extraction and some comb?
Also I noticed that the foundation is being well drawn out in the super. I have the super full with 10 frames. Should I take one or two of the frames out to give them more space. I see a lot of talk about using spacers. I have a National and use BS standard frames as well as the Manleys
Thanks

[gavin]

Hi Bridget

Wired foundation can go in any super frame, just as thin unwired for cut comb can do. Assemble them in the same way.

The spacers (plastic 'metal' ends) are just for the narrow frames which don't have built-in spacers. Those narrow frames can go in castellated supers instead (without the spacers of course).

Sometimes I would take out a frame and space 9 across the super, sometimes not. Doesn't really matter if you are extracting.

cheers

Gavin

[Jon]

You can pretty much mix anything if toy are stuck or have a mixture of frames.
I have mainly Hoffman frames in my brood boxes but there is the odd frame with a plastic spacer in there as well, often a shallow which I have put in so they can draw drone comb below.