Wintering Double Brood Box

[parkyjimbo]

As a beginner I got a Nuc 5 and 4 frames in mid July decanted into two national brood boxes. It has been doing as it should through the last few months. Later in the season , late August a 7 day mite count indicated that action was required. So I placed 2 Apivar strips in brood nest for the prescribed 6 weeks with a scratch of the strips in the third week , this showed a really good observed mite drop. I fed until mid September when they stopped taking down syrup. My question is if wintering a double brood where the stores are on top , hefting the hive left and right it seems heavy , being inexperienced I have also placed a block of fondant (this is slowly being consumed) on a QE on top of the stores (with insulation on top of the fondant ) , to be belts and braces for winter. Been keeping an ear on the hive every week and the hive sounds seems pretty active. Apart from being super cautious does this all like seem overkill? Or is there anything else I should be doing?

Thanks from Jim

[Feckless Drone]

Or is there anything else I should be doing?



Yes! keep worrying, like I do. What you describe look like a well prepared colony for winter. I do a mid-winter oxalic acid treatment when I think the colony is brood less and its at that point that I make sure there is fondant on top of the colony to cover Jan-Feb. I assume that you do not have a queen excluder between the boxes so no risk of Q being trapped below and distant from stores.

[parkyjimbo]

Yes! keep worrying, like I do. What you describe look like a well prepared colony for winter. I do a mid-winter oxalic acid treatment when I think the colony is brood less and its at that point that I make sure there is fondant on top of the colony to cover Jan-Feb. I assume that you do not have a queen excluder between the boxes so no risk of Q being trapped below and distant from stores.

Hi FD , Thanks for your reply , no QEx between boxes only one is on top to support the fondant. As I'm an endless worrier anyway , I have even taken infra-red images (see below) with my thermal camera from below the open mesh floor looking into the hive. I can see the bundle of warm bees at about 21 DegC (was about 3 DegC outside) and even the black strap that passes under the hive floor shows up. Yes that will be the next thing the oxalic acid treatment in mid-winter. Once again thanks for the reply.
Cheers
-Jim

[Mellifera Crofter]

Parkyjimbo, I don't want to alarm you - but be aware that fondant can drip, and if it's severe, a colony can be lost (so I've been told - I've not experienced it). I doubt that a queen excluder will prevent dripping. The usual way of feeding fondant is to cut a few narrow strips in the bag and then place the bag directly on the frames, or to place the fondant in a tub above a feeder hole. Just keep a look-out for excessive dripping - perhaps more so in spring.

Kitta

[parkyjimbo]

Parkyjimbo, I don't want to alarm you - but be aware that fondant can drip, and if it's severe, a colony can be lost (so I've been told - I've not experienced it). I doubt that a queen excluder will prevent dripping. The usual way of feeding fondant is to cut a few narrow strips in the bag and then place the bag directly on the frames, or to place the fondant in a tub above a feeder hole. Just keep a look-out for excessive dripping - perhaps more so in spring.

Kitta

Hi Kitta, thanks for the input , I did check a few times that it wasn't dripping and they have fairly burrowed into the block of fondant , will need replaced in the next week or so. The fondant is still in plastic wrapper with a good number of strips in the plastic opened up running the length and across the width of the block. This should ensure that the bees can access the fondant and also should help with reducing ooze. I have only one hive at the moment , it's worse than having children ;-) , of which I have two all grown up!
Best Wishes.
-Jim

[Mellifera Crofter]

All of that sounds very good, Jim. Best wishes with your colony.
Kitta

[fatshark]

In my experience I've only really ever seen fondant dripping towards the end of the winter season if the colony has expired. A strong and healthy colony appears to be able to cope with any moisture that the fondant absorbs. I use fondant for all my colony feeding in autumn and winter.

[Mellifera Crofter]

That's intresting, Fatshark. So, the colony of the person who told me about the death of his colony by fondant-dripping, was probably already very weak. I think he said it was a strong colony, and it happened in spring - so, perhaps the usual spring dwindle of a strong colony that can't cope anymore?

Do you take any precautions at all against dripping, or do you just put the 12.5kg fondant block, cut in half, straight on the frames?

Kitta

[Adam]

Jim, you have treated for varroa which we can assume has been successful which is an excellent start and your bees have plenty of stores. I can understand that you don't want them to starve and as you are new to this game want to be absolutely sure, however a double brood box hive (in my part of Scotland) if pretty full of stores, shouldn't need fondant added. The bees will work upwards through winter, eating their way through their stores. What helps conserve stores and also helps the colony is to insulate a wooden hive and you are right (in my view) to have insulated them. Shade can be helpful in the summer but sun in the winter warms the hive and allows bees to break cluster and move around - and more importantly move their stores if they need, so a pleasant not wind-swept and not damp and boggy site is also beneficial.

[fatshark]

Do you take any precautions at all against dripping, or do you just put the 12.5kg fondant block, cut in half, straight on the frames?


No precautions at all ... I either open a block (like a book) directly over the top of the frames or - if there's any chance I might need to go into the colony again - I open the block over a rigid wire queen excluder.

[parkyjimbo]

Jim, you have treated for varroa which we can assume has been successful which is an excellent start and your bees have plenty of stores. I can understand that you don't want them to starve and as you are new to this game want to be absolutely sure, however a double brood box hive (in my part of Scotland) if pretty full of stores, shouldn't need fondant added. The bees will work upwards through winter, eating their way through their stores. What helps conserve stores and also helps the colony is to insulate a wooden hive and you are right (in my view) to have insulated them. Shade can be helpful in the summer but sun in the winter warms the hive and allows bees to break cluster and move around - and more importantly move their stores if they need, so a pleasant not wind-swept and not damp and boggy site is also beneficial.

Hi Adam, thanks for your reply , I feel a bit better now after hearing other points of view etc. I still find myself every weekend or so going up to and listening to the hive noise , sticking my ear to the outside of the brood box. It is at least a way of hearing if they are still active without disturbing them , keeping warm maybe ? I'm a bit of a techie and an electronics engineer so I have thought of installing some equipment to be able to log and listen in to the hive noise remotely. We'll see about this but maybe not this year.
Many thanks for all comments.
Regards
-Jim

[Adam]

There are electronic hive monitors available... Or you can buy a stethoscope from eBay for very little and play doctors and nurses with your girls!
With the level of food your colony has; they are not going to drop dead just yet! The crunch time is in spring when the bees are working hard to keep the brood-nest at 35 degrees and rear brood with a small number of bees, and consuming food to give them the calories to do so. However a full National brood box is usually enough for a colony. And you have two boxes! (For my sins I am an electronic engineer too).
I think we all worry about our bees - with experience you will be less-concerned.

[parkyjimbo]

There are electronic hive monitors available... Or you can buy a stethoscope from eBay for very little and play doctors and nurses with your girls!
With the level of food your colony has; they are not going to drop dead just yet! The crunch time is in spring when the bees are working hard to keep the brood-nest at 35 degrees and rear brood with a small number of bees, and consuming food to give them the calories to do so. However a full National brood box is usually enough for a colony. And you have two boxes! (For my sins I am an electronic engineer too).
I think we all worry about our bees - with experience you will be less-concerned.

I have a stethoscope somewhere , will look it out , I have been just bending over and putting ear against the brood box. I suppose this could look quite strange to on-lookers but at least with stethoscope I will look like I'm just listening for woodworm! :)
Regards
Jim