Senior scientific question equations???

[Greengage]

Describe the reproductive system of the queen honeybee and the production of eggs.
[10 marks]
(b) The length of life of a worker honeybee (L) has been described by the equation

where P is the amount of pollen consumed, B is amount of brood reared, G is the CO2 level in the hive and K1 and K2 are constants.
Give reasons why this equation would be reasonable.
Any ideas what part B of this question is about or is there an equation missing. Why would I even need to know this stuff.

[Jane S]

You need the equation.
Presumably you want to pass the senior exams, to do that you need to know this stuff!

[Adam]

There must be such an equation published somewhere?

here's a starter...

A K - say K1 - must be a constant - say 3 weeks minimum life.
Brood reared reduces the life of the bee - inversely proportional. i.e. 1/B.
If P is greater then the bee will live longer.

Can anyone else add to this?

[Calluna4u]

Why would I even need to know this stuff.

You don't...not to be a beekeeper anyway.

If you want the piece of paper to call yourself an 'expert' you need it.............but some of the 'experts' I have seen are little more than a hazard around bees.

Could I answers these questions satisfactorily?..................for the exam most definitely not. Does it matter for general beekeeping? Also definitely not.

[fatshark]

You want mathematical equations and bees?
Sharpen your pencils class ... check it out (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130966).
And if you can't be bothered to read the entire thing (like me) then here's a taste of what you're missing:
2917
FFS.

[Calluna4u]

You want mathematical equations and bees?
Sharpen your pencils class ... check it out (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130966).
And if you can't be bothered to read the entire thing (like me) then here's a taste of what you're missing:
2917
FFS.

Blimey Fatshark. That's one hell of a report with some serious practical applications. You were missing out not reading it all.

Uses include.......1. The permanent treatment of insomnia. 2.The scientifically based solution to the 'shoogly table' problem. 3. In the case of 'site conflict' this could be used to initiate blunt force trauma of the cranial parts of the rival. 4. A very suitable alternative product to Triple Velvet, combining the benefits of that product with the Spartan properties of Izal. I am sure there are many more.....

[Thymallus]

2917
FFS.

Its possibly erroneous as it lumps the drones in with the workers as "only a small proportion of the hive caste". I'd be inclined to debate that point as they are drain on hive resources, a negative influence....plus no factor for bad weather.
And who cares...:)

[Greengage]

The fat bodies and the Hypopharyngeal glands can be physically examined, however there is a further difference which cannot be seen and that is the respiration of the colony. Corkins and Gilbert (1932) measured the respiration rate by the amount of CO2 produced in March and July in two virtually identical clusters of 12,000 worker bes each with a queen but with no brood. With the clusters at the same temperature the CO2 output of the summer cluster was X2 that of the winter cluster. Here it is noted that anaesthetisation of workers or queens with nithrgen or carbon dioxide shortens their lives. Thus, conversely the reduction of CO2 level in the winter cluster lengthens the life of the queen and her workers. This now enables us to make the formula for the life of the bee more complete as follows:
The life of the worker bee =L a Pollen consumed(P) /(brood reared (B) X CO2 level)
Or L= (K, P / B.CO2) +K2 where K1 and K2 are constants.
Beekeeping notes study book orange page 54.

[Greengage]

(b) The length of life of a worker honeybee (L) has been described by the equation
where P is the amount of pollen consumed, B is amount of brood reared, G is the CO2 level in the hive and K1 and K2 are constants.
Give reasons why this equation would be reasonable.

The life of the worker bee =L a Pollen consumed(P) /(brood reared (B) X (G) CO2 level)
This equation relates to a 1932 study by Corkins and Gilbert where the respiration rate of a hive of honey bees was measured in relation to the amount of CO2 produced. Both hives had approx. 12,00 bees with a queen but no brood. Both hives were kept at a constant temperature and it was noted that the summer cluster produced twice the amount of CO2 than that of the winter cluster. During summer with extra ventilation this had no effect on the colony but the extra amounts of CO2 within the hive during the winter appears to shorten the life of the queen and workers. This allowed them to create the formula for the life of a bee as seen above.
The life of the worker bee =L a Pollen consumed(P) /(brood reared (B) X (G) CO2 level)
Or L= (K, P / B.CO2) +K2 where K1 and K2 are constants.
In the above equation K1 refers to time a bee spends inside the hive and K2 refers to time spent outside the hive (Foraging) excess CO2 inside the hive slows down bee functions eventually leading to death especially during winter when bees are confined within the hive, therefore this proves the need for ventilation within the hive during times that the bees are confined, this could also affect bees when moved to different locations or confined to the hive during spraying operations.
Pollen is an important source of protein for honey bees early in the season but not all pollen for e.g Dandelion pollen contains all the enzymes required for a worker bee to build protein as some are missing. As brood numbers increase, and some bees may have died from excess CO2 within the hive some workers skip duties and are required to forage this increases the stress on the colony as workers are not building protein and there are not enough bees to keep the brood at a constant temperature leading to dwindling colony numbers.
http://repository.uwyo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1281&context=ag_exp_sta_bulletins

[fatshark]

Is this really what they test you on Greengage? If so, I hope it's after checking for a thorough grounding in apiary hygiene, disease identification, swarm prevention and Varroa management. There's nothing wrong with a bit of theory, but beekeeping is essentially a practical hobby/pastime/occupation.

Having said that, I'm looking forward to Calluna4u's elegant discourse on the theoretical study I cited above ... even if only as a solution to the "shoogly table conundrum" ;)

[Calluna4u]

Actually, I suggest that the powers that be throw another 250K at them. They need to do more experiments and include the results in their report. To borrow a phrase from there report ...the one that make me glaze over without going further 'if we assume...or assuming this'......that I use 70gsm paper in my printer, we need another 11 pages to solve the shoogly table paradox/conundrum/problem/catastrophe (that's the same one as the 'spilled drinks dilemma'). Worthwhile investment if you ask me.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Blimey Fatshark. That's one hell of a report with some serious practical applications. You were missing out not reading it all.

Uses include.......1. The permanent treatment of insomnia. 2.The scientifically based solution to the 'shoogly table' problem. ....

I have a shoogly table! So, now I'll just have to read the paper. That will be bed-time reading: one page per evening, and I'll also benefit from the number one application.
Kitta

[gavin]

Actually, I suggest that the powers that be throw another 250K at them. They need to do more experiments and include the results in their report. .......

Well, they invoke the mythical honey bee decline in the abstract so that must surely be worth a doubling of their research budget to half a million tax dollars, no?!

'Understanding the recent decline in honey bee colonies hinges on understanding the factors that impact each of these different age castes. '

I wonder what proportion of the scientific literature on bees (or anything for that matter) these days is garbage. The quality seems to have declined over the years as people chase funds for topics they don't really understand, maximise their publication rate and make more and more outrageous claims for novelty.

Hurrumph!

I could also hurrumph about the whole beekeeping examination system and its preoccupation with simplistic (or even slightly complex) theoretical models as to why bees do certain things. Most of it is naive and some of it liable to lead to wrong-headed real beekeeping advice. Anyway, good luck on your quest, GG. You have my sympathies.

There is good science out there on the longevity of workers. I had cause to look it up recently when arguing with a highly certificated beekeeper.

These questions do provoke thought and discussion, which is a good thing.

[fatshark]

I wonder what proportion of the scientific literature on bees (or anything for that matter) these days is garbage. The quality seems to have declined over the years as people chase funds for topics they don't really understand, maximise their publication rate and make more and more outrageous claims for novelty.


Where's there a moderator when you need one?

;)

PS You should see some of the stuff that doesn't get published or funded.

[Poly Hive]

I am staggered by this nonsense. Who is setting this sort of stuff in SBA papers? Frankly I would expect that sort of thing on a PHD or Docterate forum discussing the more arcane aspects of beekeping. In my view and I hold an Expert ticket it is so far from reality it is totally out of place. This needs a review.

PH

[gavin]

Where's there a moderator when you need one?

;)

PS You should see some of the stuff that doesn't get published or funded.

Yeah, poacher turned gamekeeper or some such phrase I guess :).

And I *have* seen quite a bit of the stuff that doesn't get funded or published! Just not (more than rarely) in the bee world.

Pete, GG is in Ireland so this isn't an SBA exam as far as I know.

[Greengage]

Yes I am Irish and it was one of I think 100 questions that appeared on past papers. We also study Pest and diseases swarm management varroa, Internal structure of the bee etc... We meet every second week on line using Zoom. I was curious as to what the reaction here would be to the question as its mostly educational and you guys always refer to good links except the last one :p. I will have a look see if anything else curious turns up.
The new IBA clg are having an online lecture in April. I am sure anyone can join in if you have zoom and register as I believe it can accommodate 200 people. Its on bee vision.
You are all very welcome to a talk on Bee vision by Dara Kilmartin.

Dara Kilmartin is a hobbyist beekeeper with 8years experience managing 20 colonies in 3apiaries, in suburban Dublin, rural Wexford andon a remote island in Connemara. He wasawarded the CFL qualification of FIBKA in 2016following exam lectures on Beestings and Bee Vision.He is the Bee Health Officer of the County DublinBeekeepers Association and is an active member of the Native IrishHoney Bee Society. He regularly gives pollen microscopy workshopsand bee dissection/disease analysis and has attended most NDB shortcourses.His day job is as a consultant eye surgeon and retinal specialist at theRoyal Victoria Eye and Ear Hospital, Dublin, the largest eye unit inIreland. Following UCD medical graduation, he obtained a first classhonours Masters degree in Physiology and trained in ocularimmunology at the University of Aberdeen, UK. Particular beekeepinginterests include pollen nutrition effects on bee immunity andcomparative bee vision.

Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android: https://zoom.us/j/398213922

Or iPhone one-tap :
Ireland: +35316917488,,398213922#
Or Telephone:
Dial(for higher quality, dial a number based on your current location):
Ireland: +353 (0) 1 691 7488
South Africa: +27 87 551 7702
Meeting ID: 398 213 922
International numbers available: https://zoom.us/u/bmubTra8

[Poly Hive]

Thank goodness we have more sense then.

PH

[fatshark]

Here's a cool study ... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frobt.2018.00035/full
Tracking All Members of a Honey Bee Colony Over Their Lifetime Using Learned Models of Correspondence
No bee-related results yet, it's methodological. They uniquely tagged >2700 bees in a one frame observation hive and photographed them at 3 Hz over ten weeks ... that's a total of something like 67 million frames. They can identify individual bees, and the tracks they follow, with an error rate of ~2%. Considering this accuracy, the lifespan of a worker and the duration of the study, they'll be able to identify every single interaction the bees had in the hive.
Lots of fun to be had with this type of technology and properly understanding worker policing, egg selection for queen rearing and which workers are involved etc.

They used a Cray supercomputer to do the calculations. Further details are available here: Automatic localization and decoding of honeybee markers using deep convolutional neural networks (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.04557.pdf) [PDF download]

Disappointingly, there's only one equation in the latter paper :(

[Adam]

A lot of the beekeepers who do well in the exams seem to be biology teachers or someone with that kind of background. It doesn't necessarily make them a good beekeeper it's just that they can answer the questions The mathsy question in the OP is really a test for mathematics skills rather than test for beekeeping skills so could be considered as somewhat obscure.

[derekm]

You want mathematical equations and bees?
Sharpen your pencils class ... check it out (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130966).
And if you can't be bothered to read the entire thing (like me) then here's a taste of what you're missing:
2917
FFS.

Thanks for that. An interesting read ... I will add that to my collection of honeybee papers
I think I will put the kettle on and read it again over a cup of tea :)

[Calluna4u]

Thanks for that. An interesting read ... I will add that to my collection of honeybee papers
I think I will put the kettle on and read it again over a cup of tea :)

Just tell me when you are going to read it....I will, do my bit by ordering up the big yellow taxi with comfortable walls inside and accommodation thrown in free at the other end. And these Armani jackets with the double length sleeves???? I am outraged ( that's OUTRAGED in the Daily Mail) at the things the taxpayer is forced to stump up for.

[fatshark]

Not so much the Daily Mail as the Rio Grande Sun (http://www.riograndesun.com) ... the work was conducted in Espanola, New Mexico. The funding statement (which was about the only part of the paper I understood) is This work was supported by NSF NMSU Alliance for Minority Participation Grant, HRD-1305011. The grant supports faculty mentored student research projects. So, the Daily Mail/Rio Grande Sun readers should take heart that their taxes are being used to educate the great minds of the future ;)

[Thymallus]

Stop being so skeptical you lot....models of honey bee activity are already being used in cloud computing to solve bottleneck problems.
A Modified Approach for Load Balancing in Cloud Computing Using Extended Honey Bee Algorithm....google it....
Way beyond my ken. But for more getting to sleep reading have a look at the Honey bee algorithm (https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1504/1504.05766.pdf).
Seems Seeley's work on swarm democracy has greater implications than was originally thought.

[Greengage]

There was easier questions such as.
Your local Association decides to start microscopy for its more advanced beekeepers. Devise a suitable program, indicating the equipment and reading matter required and the types of preparations and experiments to be covered.

[Jon]

GG
I have been arguing for years that the Fibka exam system is absolute garbage when it gets beyond the preliminary beekeeping course and this sort of stuff absolutely proves my point.

[Jon]

questions clearly set by someone who was at the peak of his powers in the 1970s invigilating a room full of GCSE biology students

[fatshark]

Has matron seen those boils?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiWJWLCoH2M

[Greengage]

What would you suggest as a better way of doing it or ensuring there was a standard.

[Jon]

I would suggest more questions which evaluate the beekeeper skill with regard to practical beekeeping as opposed to a memory test based on diagrams of bee innards and long lists of words related to bee anatomy which anyone could google if they were actually interested.There is no need to learn this stuff by rote and regurgitate it in an exam. The general education system used to be like this about 50 yeas ago but thankfully things have moved on.
I have met far too many beekeepers with qualifications who act like relative beginners when they are in front of a hive.
I also know people who passed the Fibka intermediate level exam before they had even handled bees.

[Adam]

I do share Jon's concerns about learning by rote - partially because I can't retain facts as well as I could when I was at school and partially because I do wonder whether it's relevant to beekeeping. I haven't done BBKA module 5 (done the others apart from 8) as I don't know if I can be bothered to learn the name of all those body parts. Beekeepers that find the modules easy can tend to be those who work in science or have been in education - science teachers seem to whizz through for example. Credit to them for knowing their tibia from their metatarsus but it doesn't necessarily make them able to get to grips with a bunch of colonies. However how do you set an exam without a reasonable degree of factual knowledge?

[Jon]

how do you set an exam without a reasonable degree of factual knowledge?

You could have a series of questions asking how to solve problems you encounter in practical beekeeping or asking for possible explanations for stuff you observe in a hive

[Thymallus]

I haven't done BBKA module 5 (done the others apart from 8) as I don't know if I can be bothered to learn the name of all those body parts.
As an former University Biologist I can tell you that module 5 is a right hemorrhoid. Hardest one of the lot, an almost total rote learning exercise.
It should be renamed as Bee anatomy as that essentially is what it is. Serves very little purpose for any practical side of beekeeping. But many of the modules contain stuff you will never need to know to successfully keep bees. What they do, however, is broaden your knowledge of beekeeping in general and force you into learning about subjects you would never willing venture. I got particularly fascinated by the history of beekeeping (Mod 8) a subject that previously I had no inclination that I would find so interesting.
Also, with the exception of modern genetics (and possibly modern materials), you find how little beekeeping methods have changed in the last 100 years or so. Now that might make a really good exam question/debating point.

[Jon]

Joining IBRA for £35 and getting access to 50 years back copies of the Journal of Apicultural research is a good way to broaden your bee knowledge

[Greengage]

Joining IBRA for £35 and getting access to 50 years back copies of the Journal of Apicultural research is a good way to broaden your bee knowledge

Maybe this would be a better investment of my money than some of the organisations I am involved in.

[Adam]

As an former University Biologist I can tell you that module 5 is a right hemorrhoid. Hardest one of the lot, an almost total rote learning exercise.
It should be renamed as Bee anatomy as that essentially is what it is. Serves very little purpose for any practical side of beekeeping. But many of the modules contain stuff you will never need to know to successfully keep bees. What they do, however, is broaden your knowledge of beekeeping in general and force you into learning about subjects you would never willing venture. I got particularly fascinated by the history of beekeeping (Mod 8) a subject that previously I had no inclination that I would find so interesting.
Also, with the exception of modern genetics (and possibly modern materials), you find how little beekeeping methods have changed in the last 100 years or so. Now that might make a really good exam question/debating point.

Some of Module 5 is already covered in other modules and I wonder whether it would make sense to reduce the number of modules to 6, say and make them more relevant. Although there would be an outcry that the modules were being dumbed down.

For examples of new topics, unless there has been a change recently, there is no mention of package bees - a good way of getting bees to people without the problem of old comb and comb disease and something that's practiced in other parts of the world quite extensively. Why not here?.
And a question could be to ask about, that old chestnut, the benefits of insulating the hive! ;) ;)
Or if you were asked to look at a Top Bar hive, how would you inspect and manage it?
Or Explain the difficulties of inspecting a Warre hive compared to a framed hive...
I am sure there are lots of other topics that could be added although it's fair to say that a Qualified or Master Beekeeper should know these answers as they will come across something other than a National hive sooner or later.

[Jon]

A good beekeeper should be able to solve any practical problem through observation, deduction and the practical application of a solution. If exams measured that kind of stuff there might be more of a point to them. I have only ever seen a slight tinkering at the edges of the FIBKA exam system and it has essentially been the sames for decades. Since the arrival of the internet and google there is far less need to memorise stuff which can be googled in 10 seconds - if you really need to know the proper term for pollen basket or suchlike.
Back in the old days people used to learn off the rivers of the British Isles in alphabetical order, list all the counties of Ireland, states of the United States etc.
There is little need for this approach to learning any more.

[Thymallus]

For examples of new topics, unless there has been a change recently, there is no mention of package bees - a good way of getting bees to people without the problem of old comb and comb disease and something that's practiced in other parts of the world quite extensively. Why not here?.
I know several people who routinely buy in package bees. It's not well known but does go on.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I've now completed all the written exams and have my Advanced Beemasters Certificate (two practicals to go before I can become an Expert Beekeeper). I think doing the exams helped me to become a better or more aware beekeeper - but I don't for a moment believe that puts me on a par to people with years of experience. I'm still a novice with lots of insecurities about what is the best way to manage my bees, and I'm eager to hear from other beekeepers how they manage their bees.

I had to look up what 'learning by rote' actually means. It means 'repetition' - and, yes, I had to do a lot of that at times to remember some course content and, unless I keep reminding myself about what I've learned, I may forget some of it again.

I enjoyed learning about the various aspect of beekeeping about which I would have remained ignorant otherwise - but I'd have baulked at questions like the one at the start of this thread. Fortunately, that was not included in our syllabus.

Kitta

[Poly Hive]

Package bees are indeed available. Denrosa will supply them and there was a gentleman in Glostershire Mike by name who also supplied. Very interesting to watch them develop though of course they are more delicate than a nuc so that may be part of the reason they are not so popular as they are in warmer countries than ours.

PH

[Calluna4u]

Package bees are indeed available. Denrosa will supply them and there was a gentleman in Glostershire Mike by name who also supplied. Very interesting to watch them develop though of course they are more delicate than a nuc so that may be part of the reason they are not so popular as they are in warmer countries than ours.

PH

There are lots of suppliers. The number traded is way more than the official statistics. Some UK bee farmers also make a lot of packages. A significant proportion of the package trade goes to nuc producers. Demand has gone nuts in the last couple of weeks.

[madasafish]

Package bees are indeed available. Denrosa will supply them and there was a gentleman in Glostershire Mike by name who also supplied. Very interesting to watch them develop though of course they are more delicate than a nuc so that may be part of the reason they are not so popular as they are in warmer countries than ours.

PH

Hmm I bought a nuc from a Mike in Gloucs.. full of varroa and hastily dumped together..Since then I have heard other uncomplimentary reports..But that was 7 years ago so maybe things have improved..

[Adam]

Is Mike in Gloucs still around?

Yes there are suppliers for packages but the modules on beekeeping don't mention them - the pros and cons, how many bees should be there, how to install them, etc. And maybe how to treat for varroa - a whiff of oxalic acid vapour would work well.

[Poly Hive]

I had some from him and they were fine though this was oh 10 years ago or so. They were payment for the use of my heather loosner which he had actually never used but he stuck to his side of the bargain which was the packages. Last I heard he was selling up or trying to.

PH

[Greengage]

Is he the chap running a UTube channel on Queen rearing?

[Bridget]

Can someone explain package bees? Smaller than a nuc I'm presuming but how made up etc. And why? Cheaper?
Thanks


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[Feckless Drone]

[QUOTE=Bridget;39443]Can someone explain package bees?

Dave Cushman has some info (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/packagebees.html) and old videos on youtube show installation of a package of bees at Craibstone(?).
I suppose it is a convenient way to ship the equivalent of a swarm, from warmer climes so earlier in the season and you can treat them as such.

[Poly Hive]

A package of bees is sold by weight, usually 3 or 5 pounds of bees + a mated queen in a cage. The heavier weight is more expensive. So basically one is buying a man made swarm and so they build up slower than a nucleus would. Hence the price difference.

I am not aware of a package vid ex Craibstone but that don't mean there is not one.

PH

[Bridget]

A package of bees is sold by weight, usually 3 or 5 pounds of bees + a mated queen in a cage. The heavier weight is more expensive. So basically one is buying a man made swarm and so they build up slower than a nucleus would. Hence the price difference.

I am not aware of a package vid ex Craibstone but that don't mean there is not one.

PH

Thanks to you both. Interesting but I think I'd prefer to increase from my own stock though I can see it might be tempting if you'd lost a queen in spring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Feckless Drone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7F5u7Uqt1U

Bridget - series of videos, this one is hiving a package.

[Poly Hive]

Yes that was done at Craibstone and I had forgotten I had posted it up. Was a few years ago so thats my excuse. :) When I think on it it was also me that paid for it to be transfered from cine to DVD.

PH