Heather ops

[Beeforben]

Hi all,
I'm interested in moving my 4 hives to the heather this year as I've not done it before and I'd like to try it.

I stay near Carnoustie and wondered if anyone could offer any advice regards possible sites please? What's the preferred method - a drive about then try and find some land owners doors to knock on?

Cheers

[Feckless Drone]

The East of Scotland Beekeeping Association has a heather site that has been used by members in the past; its up in Glen Clova. Are you an ESBA member? You could enquire to find out what the situation is. Also ESBA have a heather picnic coming up and there would be a chance to see first hand how its done.

I've spent a lot of time driving around (I know where all the llamas and belted Galloways are), walking about and talking to landowners, gamekeepers, farmers and other beekeepers to find and try out some sites. Looking over sites when the heather is out to think about the following year helps. Talking to ESBA members, and seeing how they get ready for the heather was important and useful - also getting advice from one Murray McGregor (C4U) was a great help. Don't just lob any colony up to the hills, it does need some preparation to get a strong foraging force. I would not just load up hives and drive hoping to find somewhere; map out the site first and discuss access with the landowner, get permission etc. I can pass on a few short articles if you want -

[Beeforben]

Great help thanks and yes please to articles.

[Feckless Drone]

Here are two short articles to get you going.

www.bee-craft.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/.../Going-to-the-Heather-July-2011.pdf

http://www.conwybeekeepers.org.uk/new-beekeepers/heather-honey/

[gavin]

The East of Scotland Beekeeping Association has a heather site that has been used by members in the past; its up in Glen Clova.

Umm ... not really. We did talk about that as a possibility when we were setting it up but what with foulbrood disease and security concerns it hasn't seemed like a good idea so we haven't encouraged this. Plus I don't think it is a good heather site, we've never taken much from there. But that was possibly due to us lobbing any old colony up there!

But yes, drive around and ask locally, ask any contacts you have, get to know someone already taking bees up the hills and maybe you can try it using their sites.

[Poly Hive]

Look first and foremost for a proper managed moor. Evidenced by burnt areas. If it ain't burnt it is not really worth thinking about. It's the rejuvenated heather that produces the honey you see.

PH

[mbc]

Look first and foremost for a proper managed moor. Evidenced by burnt areas. If it ain't burnt it is not really worth thinking about. It's the rejuvenated heather that produces the honey you see.

PH

Tripe, my best spot is a big slab of unmanaged hillside lightly grazed by ponies, not been burnt or cut this century, and I've taken tonnes of ling honey from there, averaging more than all neighbouring sites some on managed grouse moors.

[Poly Hive]

Ah bless. The exception that proves the rule. All the Scottish Bee Farmers I know would disagree but hey if it works for you good luck.

PH

[mbc]

Ah bless. The exception that proves the rule. All the Scottish Bee Farmers I know would disagree but hey if it works for you good luck.

PH
That's the spirit, each to their own, it's just best not to let a narrow dogma go unchallenged if you have different personal experience.

[Bridget]

I know several sites where Calluna4u has hives and they are certainly not "managed".


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[gavin]

I know several sites where Calluna4u has hives and they are certainly not "managed".


I also thought that and even had a recollection that Murray mentioned it on here, but I couldn't find the discussion. His harvest from some of these sites last year was enormous - many stacked up to 6 deep Langs with some higher.

[Calluna4u]

I also thought that and even had a recollection that Murray mentioned it on here, but I couldn't find the discussion. His harvest from some of these sites last year was enormous - many stacked up to 6 deep Langs with some higher.

Yes Gavin....your recollection is correct.

A significant proportion of my best heather locations are in forests and conservation areas, particularly old Caledonian forest, and they do just as well as the managed moors. Brigit has seen some of these and knows what she is talking about.

I reckon this is another of those beekeeping factoids that have been conventional thinking for generations, and have become 'facts' by repetition. There is an abundance of them.

Much advice about heather production is totally invalid in our systems (out of date?). Seems mostly aimed at those wanting to do cut comb or produce for the showbench.(If that's your aim then its fine.) Convention says to cramp the nest...we actually go unlimited from late June.

However........'stripy' moors from burning do tend to extend the season against unmanaged open moor areas (thus comparing like with like) and often there is more bell in the relatively recently burned areas until the ling starts to choke it out again. Its thus actually a lot more nuanced than a simple this or that is best statement.

Was away on an estate yesterday choosing new places close to the A9 and of the 6 we chose 4 were in unmanaged areas and only 2 in managed. The reasons for the choices are mainly centring on where I think the bees will do best, as in all of them there is massive overkill of heather, so shelter and ability to get out and work in less than optimum weather comes I to play...and remember that open forest areas flower over a long period too, as the more shaded heather can be a couple of weeks after the areas in full all day sun. There is a lot to consider.


Just a quick tally in my head of the places in use this year (we are still shifting but 90% done) is 36 sites Unmanaged and 39 managed. Given the preponderance of managed moors over unmanaged I suppose this suggests a slight tendency to favour the unmanaged areas with more trees.

[RDMW]

I get a good crop from the hill behind our house about 500 m away. It has not be burnt in the 14 yrs we have been here. The heather (ling) flowers well every year


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[Poly Hive]

Thanks for that Murray, another "fact" falls by the wayside. Actually as I have a serious dearth of moors down here it may open up other possibilities I have so far ignored. As Manley said the only way to find out is to put some bees in. :)

PH

[prakel]

Thanks for that Murray, another "fact" falls by the wayside.

Yeah, that's what mbc told you.

[The Drone Ranger]

A lot of moors are burned though, and some have sheep instead


http://benvironment.org.uk/post/6758732361/muirburn

[Beeforben]

Seasonal / yearly variance aside, when would anyone in the glen clova area suggest bringing their bees back from their heathery holiday? Doing some tree maintenance / hedge planting in and around the apirary and could do with an date to the nearest week as I've never taken bees to the hills before....

[Poly Hive]

Actually what mbc siad was: "Tripe, my best spot is a big slab of unmanaged hillside lightly grazed by ponies, not been burnt or cut this century, and I've taken tonnes of ling honey from there, averaging more than all neighbouring sites some on managed grouse moors."

Now I was taught that the best moors were managed moors and my various mentors thought the same. Logically with different areas of heather age it made sense. No disrespect to mbc whom I don't know and his tons of heather, the tons of heather I took were all from managed moors so that is my experience. However I do know Murray, and have a huge respect for his knowledge and experience which dwarfs the vast majority of the UK beekeepers. If he says it is a myth then I pay attention.

PH

[Poly Hive]

I heard it stated with confidence that when the heather pollen rose in clouds whilst walking through it, that was it over, time to move the hives home.

Anyone agree or otherwise?

PH

[prakel]

Actually what mbc siad was: "Tripe, my best spot is a big slab of unmanaged hillside lightly grazed by ponies, not been burnt or cut this century, and I've taken tonnes of ling honey from there, averaging more than all neighbouring sites some on managed grouse moors.

Actually, what mbc said was:


That's the spirit, each to their own, it's just best not to let a narrow dogma go unchallenged if you have different personal experience.

[mbc]

Lol, let's not squabble but instead pat each other on the back for making the effort to get to the heather and also sharing any insights we might have.

[Beeforben]

Seasonal / yearly variance aside, when would anyone in the glen clova area suggest bringing their bees back from their heathery holiday? Doing some tree maintenance / hedge planting in and around the apirary and could do with an date to the nearest week as I've never taken bees to the hills before....

Anyone?

[gavin]

Anyone?

Some time in September. Depends.

An early frost or a medium term forecast of poor weather and you might as well bring them home. Delay a couple of weeks and they'll come to no harm though the clock is ticking for Varroa control, a last burst of winter bee rearing and to some extent winter feeding but Murray has shown that can be done remarkably late. Most beekeepers would aim for the first or second week of September although one recent year exceptionally had a significant flow in the third week.

[Beeforben]

Just the job - thanks

[prakel]

I heard it stated with confidence that when the heather pollen rose in clouds whilst walking through it, that was it over, time to move the hives home.

Anyone agree or otherwise?

PH

There's a reference to this in Willie Robson's 'Reflections on Beekeeping'.

[Poly Hive]

Not a book I have so was he saying it was so or saying it was not pease?

PH

[prakel]

Not a book I have so was he saying it was so or saying it was not pease?

PH

I gave my copy away, along with so much else related to bees, this last year, but as I remember (and I stress that I may be wrong on this) he says the opposite. I'm sure that someone here will have a copy to check with.

[Feckless Drone]

So - when the gamekeeper's wife sends you an image (!) and she knows her stuff. And all you can see is a super of cut comb heather honey hanging on a tree.

[fatshark]

Gravity works in mysterious ways North of the Tay ... ;)

[Poly Hive]

Is the heather over? Not the flowering but the flow.

PH

[Bridget]

Is the heather over? Not the flowering but the flow.

PH

Not in my area near Kingussie. Bees still very busy


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[Calluna4u]

Not in my area near Kingussie. Bees still very busy


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One of my guys was up at Rothiemurchus and Phones yesterday working bees and I can confirm what Brigit says. still significant fresh nectar. Weather forecast so so for next few days but I see a potential for warm weather for 10 to 12 days after that......

However.....in Deeside yesterday it looked as if the heather has another week. Large tracts are 70% brown already, but where the bees are in forest the understory heather remains vibrant. Working hard in cold weather on high places, a lot quieter lower down...which was odd.

[Feckless Drone]

At my exposed sites in Angus still seems to be some activity in recent days, lots of pollen coming in certainly. However, my heather ops have not turned out great. 6 colonies taken to the heather, 3 swarmed (2 caught), 2 Qs with superb laying patterns unfortunately through the thin foundation super. That leaves 1 colony where everything gone to plan. One swarm housed itself under the floor of a hive that was sitting on a tyre, I assume this might be the clipped Q who did not get far. Been there awhile and it took me a bit of time to dismantle the setup, get as many bees into a nuc box, remove the comb (brood and stores) and have a long look for a Q. Did not see her so its the "bees in a box and wait to see what happens" scenario. Those of you who have carried out inspections and manipulations in the hills, in the drizzle and mist, with midges and bees paying you close attention will understand how it all went.

[Bridget]

One of my guys was up at Rothiemurchus and Phones yesterday working bees and I can confirm what Brigit says. still significant fresh nectar. Weather forecast so so for next few days but I see a potential for warm weather for 10 to 12 days after that......

However.....in Deeside yesterday it looked as if the heather has another week. Large tracts are 70% brown already, but where the bees are in forest the understory heather remains vibrant. Working hard in cold weather on high places, a lot quieter lower down...which was odd.

So you reckon we will have another 2 weeks approx so I will have to put together some more supers. Goody!
A question - I know you don't rush to take the bees away as no doubt you would be swamped if they all went home at once. Do you find your top deeps quite clear of brood by the time you move them?
We are running deeps and supers and we intend to take honey from the top deeps. Up until now we have always treated for mite with strips in September but are thinking of sublimation this year. If we are still getting honey in September there will probably still be brood in the top deeps. If we start using strips end of September it's getting a bit late (weather etc) for getting the full benefit and sublimation would give us more leeway.
Sorry a bit long-winded - stuck in traffic on the new bridge on the way to work in Livingston. Should have gone via Stirling.
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[Calluna4u]

So you reckon we will have another 2 weeks approx so I will have to put together some more supers. Goody!
A question - I know you don't rush to take the bees away as no doubt you would be swamped if they all went home at once. Do you find your top deeps quite clear of brood by the time you move them?
We are running deeps and supers and we intend to take honey from the top deeps. Up until now we have always treated for mite with strips in September but are thinking of sublimation this year. If we are still getting honey in September there will probably still be brood in the top deeps. If we start using strips end of September it's getting a bit late (weather etc) for getting the full benefit and sublimation would give us more leeway.
Sorry a bit long-winded - stuck in traffic on the new bridge on the way to work in Livingston. Should have gone via Stirling.
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Will give you a full reply on this, possibly by PM, tomorrow. Have had a frantic couple of days with a Rowse audit and a VAT inspection plus two important estate meetings....so tonight I just want to go home and relax. However...even today....good nectar coming in despite the cool conditions at forest locations in Deeside.

[Bridget]

Will give you a full reply on this, possibly by PM, tomorrow. Have had a frantic couple of days with a Rowse audit and a VAT inspection plus two important estate meetings....so tonight I just want to go home and relax. However...even today....good nectar coming in despite the cool conditions at forest locations in Deeside.

No rush. Relax and breathe......


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[alancooper]

I have hives on the heather at about 150m. Bees are active and now that rose-bay willow herb has almost stopped, they are bringing in a lot of white pollen. Rex Sawyers book gives heather as a brown pollen but, the stuff my bees are carrying has no trace of even light fawn. There is very little blackberry at the site and heather seems the only likely candidate for pollen. I could also take a look at the pollen under a microscope but am interested in other people's colour observations. Brown or white?

[Jon]

I have colonies on Divis Mountain at 1000 feet and I noticed bees coming in with white pollen and the tell tale balsam stripe.

[busybeephilip]

I dident think there would be much heather on divis, then again might be wrong you might get a good crop of heather. Balsam usually grows well where there are rivers/streams, there must be some streams at the foot of the hill, it would be interesting to find out haw far they are flying to get the pollen as it pretty desolate where you have your mating hive if i am thinking of the same place. There would be more balsom in range at the comm/allot centre at the bottom of the hill

[Poly Hive]

Went for a drive yesterday afternoon to look for a spot to watch the cycle race and the Eildons are still well in flower with a good 2 weeks left in it at a guess. Came home and the bees here are working the HB with gusto. :)

PH

[alancooper]

I have colonies on Divis Mountain at 1000 feet and I noticed bees coming in with white pollen and the tell tale balsam stripe.
I have bees on heather at about 600ft - all pollen loads are white - no Himalayan balsalm for ten miles. Any idea what colour your heather pollen loads are?

[Poly Hive]

Personally I would describe it as dirty white.

PH