Queen Failures

[The Poot]

Just joined the forum, so hello.
This is my third year and my most unsuccessful year. Moved house last August with two colonies headed up by young queens. One locally mated in May last year (A) and one bought from a commercial bee farmer in August (B). Both over wintered and A got off to a roaring start through Feb, then failed in May. This led to laying workers. B built up slowly then also failed in May leading to queen less situation. I bought two queens locally and after splitting up the laying workers managed to get the queen accepted. She came into lay then stopped two weeks later, the workers dwindled and the hive was robbed out on Saturday by someone else's bees. B's hive must have had a virgin queen and B disappeared. The colony is now building fast but is in danger of the robbers targeting it next. I've closed up the entrance to a couple of bee spaces and can only hope for the best. I've read that it's more common for young queens to fail now. Any thoughts?
Any advice?

[Adam]

For your queen A that overwintered, bees would usually replace a queen that's failing (but not always). Regular inspections should tell you what's going on - whether there are supercedure cells or excessive drone brood. Or did she just stop laying? Laying workers would only develop after the brood had emerged and without a queen. And if you have laying workers, it's unlikely that you will be able to requeen them.
For colony B, it's not uncommon for a beekeeper to introduce a queen and find her dead as there's already a virgin in there somewhere. Read this as a test to identify whether you have a queen in the hive or not. http://www.norfolkbee.co.uk/beekeepers-resource/when-will-my-new-queen-start-to-lay
if you are worried about robbing, do you believe that robbing is taking place? if you are not sure simply close up the entrance at dusk tonight. If there are bees hanging around the entrance in the morning, then they will almost certainly be robbers. If so, you could leave the colony closed up for a couple of days to help deter them. If you do close them up, ensure that there is enough room for them - add a super if they are congested.
I don't know if queen failures are more common now that a generation ago. Some say that this is the case. it is possible that some drones which are infected by viruses due to varroa mate with queens that means that they fail. I have had a few queens in the past that just stopped laying and I have seen early supercedure too. Although nosema could also be responsible.

[Jon]

I have had a few queens just disappear this year leaving behind emergency queen cells.
No idea why.

[The Poot]

Hi Adam, thanks for the reply.
It's great to be a junior again at 63!
It seems that A was laying really well very early in the Spring and the colony was building well. Then I was unable to check for a few weeks (working long hours and weekends were wet or cold) and next check I found no eggs or brood and later laying workers. There was no evidence of an attempt to raise a queen. I did manage to requeen - I moved the colony across the garden and allowed the flyers back into a new hive. The introduced queen was accepted but after a couple of weeks ceased laying. The flyers dwindled and the hive then robbed out.
Queen B disappeared - I can only assume seen off by an unnoticed virgin. The colony is now building well but I've not found the queen - they are "runners" on the comb and difficult to inspect. Having closed down to a two bee space entrance the robbers have given up and peace is restored. So all is not lost.
I have a bait hive out and a nuc on order as I'm determined to get to three colonies into the Winter - then I'll have more strength in depth next Spring. Or at least that's the theory!
Thanks again for your reply. I have experienced a very different set of circumstances since moving into the countryside, including now a lack of forage in a green desert!
All the best,

[The Poot]

Hi Jon try Dave Cushman's site - he discusses possible causes of queen failures in some depth, but doesn't reach a conclusion - but requests folk to research the subject. Worth a read and food for thought.

[Jon]

Hi
Roger Patterson runs the Dave Cushman site now and I am well aware of the queen issues he has been reporting the past few years. you can always get the odd queen just go missing but I have never seen such a number go awol in a short time before.

[prakel]

I have experienced a very different set of circumstances since moving into the countryside, including now a lack of forage in a green desert!

Really? In Dorset?

[The Poot]

Hi Prakrit, unfortunately yes; I'm in an area of fields for cattle, grass for silage and so on. In a valley too so my bees didn't benefit from the osr on the tops. I can now appreciate how bees can do better in semi urban areas than the countryside. I'm hoping the brambles in the many hedgerows will give a nectar surplus.

[Poly Hive]

Poor Dave's site is not what it was sadly.

There are always going to be problems with queens, let's be honest please. They undertake risky flights (birds) suffer under or poor matings and then we expect them to be lovely egg laying machines. It's not a perfect world, never has been and never will. If I have a nicely performing queen I thank the beekeeping gods and make sure I have a few queens in hand as spares.

PH

[prakel]

If I have a nicely performing queen I thank the beekeeping gods and make sure I have a few queens in hand as spares.

Very sound approach which would be hard to beat!

[prakel]

Hi Prakrit, unfortunately yes; I'm in an area of fields for cattle, grass for silage and so on. In a valley too so my bees didn't benefit from the osr on the tops. I can now appreciate how bees can do better in semi urban areas than the countryside. I'm hoping the brambles in the many hedgerows will give a nectar surplus.

Hi Poot, you've found a lost part of the county which I've thankfully missed! My own experience over the years that I've been here has been much better. Not saying that there haven't been localised (and sometimes blanket) crop failures but nothing on a permanent basis, similarly, I find queen matings down here to be, for the most part, very good although most May's prove to be a let down (this year was something of an exception), August and September are very good in my experience; I know that there can be some concern over drone quality later in the summer but experience has shown good results over a couple of decades in these parts.

[The Poot]

Hello Prakrit,
(Sorry I mis-spelled your name last time)
I moved from Somerset, quite close to Yeovil, where things were generally good, to proper rural Dorset. The hedges are flailed to an inch of their lives in the early Winter, stopping them flowering in the Spring. The fields don't have borders for wild flowers either. I'll have to start an action group or try to educate some farmers I reckon. My first Summer here hasn't gone to plan bee-wise, so it might be that I'm just a grumpy old sod!

[prakel]

Hello Prakrit,
(Sorry I mis-spelled your name last time)

lol


I'll have to start an action group or try to educate some farmers

Yes, I find they respond well to being told how to do their jobs properly.

[The Poot]

"get orff moi laaarnd"

[prakel]

Yes, that's what they might start saying if 'beekeepers' start lecturing them. As I've said, I think you must be very unlucky to have found such a 'desert' in the County of Dorset. Maybe the farmers need to organize a group to lecture the local beekeepers on how to raise good queens and get a crop too.

[Greengage]

Maybe this should be a different thread "get orff moi laaarnd" but why should a farmer invite a beekeeper onto his or her land. What's in it for the farmer except hassle.
1. A beekeeper moves their hives onto land that is not theirs probably with no written agreement as to what is involved.
2. Farmer cannot access the hives if they are in the way they have to contact the beekeeper to move them phone call and time wasted waiting for beekeeper to call or not available to take call.
3. There is a weather window for spraying beekeeper not contactable.
4. Ag contractor working on land farmer forgets to inform him there are bees on the site.
4. Poor beekeeper swarms causing nuisance.
5. Aggressive bees following farmer when on site.
6.Excess equipment left on site or not collected.
7. other beekeepers visiting site without permission.
8. Other beekeepers see hives on site and move theirs on to same without permission.
9. Beekeepers fighting over right of access.
10. No thanks received either from beekeeper, no pot of honey passed on no ,money exchanges hands,
11. Local associations always complaining about farmers Spraying, hedge maintenance, crop rotation. headlands, fertiliser spreading, poor forage etc...
12. Conflict between beekeepers and conservationists in relation to native pollinators and honey bees.

[The Poot]

Hi Prakel and Greengage,
I understand there are incentives for leaving headlands in some counties and some farmers have proved the benefits from attracting pollinators onto their land. Higher yields and so on. But for wind pollinated crops there is no such benefit so most farmers don't bother. I'm still sussing out forage available and thus far it's not positive - my first year at this location. I think your list of negatives Greengage, is about right sadly. I guess as very busy people farmers have every right to consider headlands and so on as unnecessary distractions.
I intend to get into raising my own queens but am still a novice with much to learn.
Today my neighbour has a swarm high in a tree and the scouts are investigating my bait hive, so I'm hoping tomorrow they'll move in and I'll be back to two colonies after losing the one robbed out.
I appreciate your comments.

[Greengage]

I grew up in a rural area and can see it from both sides. There is nothing worse than someone moving from an urban area to a rural and telling farmers how to maintain their lands. They complain about smells, Slow machinery on roads, generators running, cows and donkeys calling, Loose animals. I have asked our people would anyone be interested in attending farmers meetings or joining there group work with them listen to their concerns, no takers. Honey bees are not the answer to any of their problems. For OSR honey bees can contribute to an even pollination of the crop, OSR can self pollinate.. OSR was used as a break crop and farmers got paid for growing it but now there is a move away from it to grow maize more money in it , remember Farming is a business not a hobby. Apples are better off pollinated by lots of different pollinators not just Honey bees. As for Strawberries, Peppers, Tomatoes, Cucumbers they are all grown in green houses and pollinated by bumblebees. Don't get me started on the Bee Armageddon when we all die due to lack of honey bees. For the majority of people Honey bee keeping is a hobby and even at that its a middle class hobby as it is an expensive hobby to get involved in unless you have good carpentry skills and somewhere to keep your bees. My final rant as for Urban bee keeping versus Rural beekeeping the only difference is that it is more convenient for some people to keep there bees in urban areas than rural areas. saves on travel time for the bee keeper.

[prakel]

Poot, have you tried this mapping device (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1281-Drawing-a-circle-on-Google-maps-Obeattie&highlight=obeattie) which Mellifera Crofter told us about? You may find it interesting.

[The Poot]

Poot, have you tried this mapping device (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1281-Drawing-a-circle-on-Google-maps-Obeattie&highlight=obeattie) which Mellifera Crofter told us about? You may find it interesting.

Hi Prakel,
Thanks for pointing me to the mapping site - I've clearly been a bit short sighted. The bees must be flying further afield than I estimated. Perhaps I've been a little pessimistic! Still unfamiliar territory.
On a brighter note a large swarm is making their home in my bait hive�� For once a plan has come good and the bees abided by the rules! I added a frame with open brood from my other hive to make them feel at home and persuade them to stay.
How many colonies do you have? How are they doing this year?

[The Poot]

Poot, have you tried this mapping device (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?1281-Drawing-a-circle-on-Google-maps-Obeattie&highlight=obeattie) which Mellifera Crofter told us about? You may find it interesting.

Hi Prakel,
Thanks for pointing me to the mapping site - I've clearly been a bit short sighted. The bees must be flying further afield than I estimated. Perhaps I've been a little pessimistic! Still unfamiliar territory.
On a brighter note a large swarm is making their home in my bait hive😀 For once a plan has come good and the bees abided by the rules! I added a frame with open brood from my other hive to make them feel at home and persuade them to stay.
How many colonies do you have? How are they doing this year?

[prakel]

How many colonies do you have? How are they doing this year?

Well, we are downsizing quite drastically so it's an ever decreasing figure, but they're doing well so far :)

[The Drone Ranger]

Field margins are not unwelcome but they do get spray drift when the fields are treated
Trees might be better sources for bees and take up less space
https://www.bbka.org.uk/files/library/bbka_trees_for_bees_3-way_1306864371.pdf
Like everything else they are not always reliable :)

[Adam]

August and September are very good in my experience; I know that there can be some concern over drone quality later in the summer but experience has shown good results over a couple of decades in these parts.

The point made about drone quality in late summer is interesting; I guess this is due to varroa getting a hold during the summer so early matings - if you get the weather - will be more reliable as the drones are less likely to be harmed.