Local bees

[RDMW]

I have been interested in the recent threads about the SNHBS and morphometry. This photo shows a dark bee from my hives and a more yellow one from a neighbours hive across the loch about 3 miles away. I would be interested in any comments from more expert Beekeepers. My bees have all been sourced locally in Ullapool in the north west highlands from swarms and dividing my colonies, and I have not imported queens. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170224/a64a7acf822c37fa0fae72fa2c0d91ee.jpg


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[Mellifera Crofter]

I'm not an expert about what AMM bees look like, RDMW - but I think, from reading here (Jon, perhaps?) that AMMs aren't necessarily all black or dark brown. The bee on the left isn't that yellow either, and the tomenta (the lighter stripes) are still on the narrow side, rather than wide. I don't know if that means anything. I've also heard or read that AMMs are more stocky. I've been scrutinising my AMM bees and can't say that I've seen that - but perhaps I should have two bees photographed together like you have done to be able to compare them.

Are you going to try checking your bees, and perhaps your neighbour's as well, with some wing morphometry?
Kitta

[RDMW]

Thanks Kitta
Yes I have had an offer of help with morphometry and plan to send a sample of young bees in the Spring.
I do not know what strain my bees are, I expect they are a Heinz 57 mongrel.
They are kinda nice though!




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[gavin]

Sorry - I intended to reply earlier. Yes, they look like a right mix though the bee on the right is making a good attempt. We used to have a strong focus here on wing morphometry - see 'Your gallery of 2D plots'* in 'Native honeybees'. However so much has emerged that casts doubt on it as reliable means of distinguishing bee types. You can see already that yours are mixed so even if wing morphometry shows spots in the right places (as it could do) they will still be mixed.

We will discuss in the new society the various ways of checking the affinities of bees. Wing morphometry is one tool but doesn't produce reliable results on its own if your bees are coming from a mixed area.

* though, sadly, a lot of the images are no longer showing. If I had another free winter before the bee season hits I might be able to fix some of that ..

[RDMW]

Thanks Gavin
Is this the site you are referring to? http://bibba.com/native-honey-bees/
I guess for the hobbyist keeping bees for fun good temperament and adaptation to local conditions are maybe more important than productivity
I'm going to have my first go at queen rearing using a cup kit this year and had a great time on colonsay with Andrew last summer which made me interested in Amm
I appreciate that unless you are in an unusually isolated area there is no chance of breeding pure but it is fun to try and improve the stock


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[gavin]

Hi R

I was thinking of this long thread but it is hardly worth reading at the moment with most of the images absent:
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?153-Your-gallery-of-2D-plots

Definitely fun to try to improve the stock. Also, until you try you may not know just how mixed your area really is. The 3 miles of water might be enough to keep your virgins away from your neighbour's drones and you might have a chance of keeping something close to the native type. There might be mechanisms - height of drone flight is one possibility - that slow any mixing locally.

[busybeephilip]

. The 3 miles of water might be enough to keep your virgins away from your neighbour's drones and you might have a chance of keeping something close to the native type. There might be mechanisms - height of drone flight is one possibility - that slow any mixing locally.

But you forgot to mention Apairy Vacinity Mating so keeping them native will be no problem :rolleyes:

[Jon]

AvM does not apply to all queens.

This paper (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-013-0212-y) is interesting with regard to mating habits

Abstract
Northern Poland is inhabited by native Apis mellifera mellifera (AMM) and the non-native A. m. carnica (AMC) which was introduced by beekeepers. However, hybrids between the two subspecies of honey bee are relatively rare. The lower than expected proportion of hybrids is hypothesised to be related to reproductive isolation between AMM and AMC. To verify this hypothesis, we allowed the AMM and AMC queens to be naturally inseminated in an area inhabited by both AMM and AMC drones. Genotype of the queens and their sexual partners were derived based on random samples of their worker offspring. Assignment of parental genotypes to the two subspecies was performed with a Bayesian clustering method. In colonies headed by AMM queens, workers were fathered mainly by AMM drones. On the other hand, in colonies headed by AMC queens workers were fathered by drones of both subspecies. The partial reproductive isolation reported here between AMM and AMC may facilitate conservation of the declining population of AMM.

edit: still cant post pics

[Thymallus]

Didn't Keoniger's books describe some experiments that suggested Carnica drones and Amm drones congregated at different heights and so less inter-sub-species breeding. I'm assuming virgin queens are genetically programmed to fly at the appropriate height whilst "on the pull".

[Poly Hive]

I had a massive slide sort out over the weekend and came across some 20 odd ones of wings I collected from Aberdeenshire and also from Morayshire. would they be of any interest to anyone?

PH

[Mellifera Crofter]

It would be nice to keep the Aberdeenshire slides with the ADBKA - unless somebody has a better suggestion for their safeguarding. I'll have a chat with David or somebody about it.
Kitta

[greengumbo]

It would be nice to keep the Aberdeenshire slides with the ADBKA - unless somebody has a better suggestion for their safeguarding. I'll have a chat with David or somebody about it.
Kitta

It would be interesting. Do you know where / when samples were collected PH ? I bet Jimbo would be up for analysing them.

[Jimbo]

What were the wings collected for? Was it for wing measurement using the projection method? Do you have the the approx dates when they were collected and approx location of where the colonies were situated
They are definitely worth keeping as a historical record especially if some came from the Maud strain.
I would also be up for scanning them again using the more modern methods we have today and if Aberdeen want to keep them then they could be returned for safe keeping


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[Alvearium]

It is well worthwhile keeping these slides for wing morphometry. I still hold the slides from the Scottish survey done by John and Morna Stoakley almost 25 yrs ago. They are in perfect condition. They included some Sutherland colonies which were strongly Amm in their characteristics. I followed up wing morphometry 20 yrs after this from the same apiary and the results were the same. Now that the SNHBS is here all these records will have found a home. It will be interesting to chat with people about all this at the launch meeting on 1st April.
Alvearium

[Mellifera Crofter]

... Now that the SNHBS is here all these records will have found a home. It will be interesting to chat with people about all this at the launch meeting on 1st April.
Alvearium

I've sent a PM to PH and Gavin, and emailed David. I think we're all interested to keep the slides safe, and we don't mind where - ADBKA or SNHBS (which is, perhaps, a more logical place).
Kitta

[Poly Hive]

I strongly suspect, actually it should be that some of the slides from the Stokelys are mine as John Morna and I organised that BIBBA weekend. Bit of a damp squib in the end. They came the spouted the philosophy that the further north the darker the bees and wow didn't we have interesting measurements to show them, then trotted south again never to be heard from again. Then poor John took ill and that was that.

Anyway... number of slides 17, 15 wings per slide. Where from? I think, now remember this is a lot of years ago now, roughly 1995 ish? Some would have been from my bees which were the "Maud" strain, some were from Morayshire from a farmer that was rouping out and they were very nice bees. I bought some 15 colonies I think it was at the sale. That pretty much covers it I think.

I don't suppose anyone knows what happened to the slides at Craibstone in the front office, the one on the left entering the double door as they were the original Acarine slides. The bloody college has likely dumped them in there ignorance.