Queenless hive or not?

[alancooper]

I need to decide whether to re-queen a productive hive. These are my hive records.
11/7/16 - e, l, sb; 9 frames with sb; temper good.
26/7/16 - 8 sealed Qcells; 7 frames with sb; temper good; to forestall possible swarming I harvested the Q swarm cells for incubator and apideas .
31/7/16 - sb only present and no sign of Q cell formation; fearing Q loss I added a vQ in a cage.
27/8/16 - no eggs or brood. This hive seems Qless - lots of bees, no brood, grumpy, but still bringing in pollen and still with drones.
So, do I wait longer in the hope that a possibly mated Q decides to lay in a still crowded hive (2 supers), or do I merge with an apidea and its laying Q before laying workers develop?
Alan.

[gavin]

I need to decide whether to re-queen a productive hive. These are my hive records.
11/7/16 - e, l, sb; 9 frames with sb; temper good.
26/7/16 - 8 sealed Qcells; 7 frames with sb; temper good; to forestall possible swarming I harvested the Q swarm cells for incubator and apideas .
31/7/16 - sb only present and no sign of Q cell formation; fearing Q loss I added a vQ in a cage.
27/8/16 - no eggs or brood. This hive seems Qless - lots of bees, no brood, grumpy, but still bringing in pollen and still with drones.
So, do I wait longer in the hope that a possibly mated Q decides to lay in a still crowded hive (2 supers), or do I merge with an apidea and its laying Q before laying workers develop?
Alan.

Hi Alan

Hard to be sure, other than you are missing things (which is normal for the inexperienced and even the experienced!). I guess that one explanation is ....

- you lost a swarm (timing could be clarified if no eggs and open brood 26 Jul)
- queen cell missed so you had a new virgin out 24 July or so
- with that timing a virgin could be right at the end of her mating window, or a recently mated queen is present but not yet laying

Is there a clear area of polished cells? If so it is getting late but there may yet be a queen to come into lay.

If there is no area of polished cells, try a test frame or fragment of comb wth eggs and larvae if you have can. Or if the brood area is disorganised with pollen and stores across the area, then perhaps risk using a spare queen. I have united an Apidea with a large colony, over newspaper over the feed hole of the crownboard above the supers - but using its queen in an introduction cage may be more reliable.

G.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Alan
If I find sealed queen cells, next I would look for eggs, then have a really good hunt for the queen
No queen and no eggs then taking off all the queen cells is probably a wrong move
Introducing virgin queens is tricky and when they are in a cage the bees might not feed them so they have to feed themselves
A month since the virgin went in looks like she didn't make it
As Gavin says put in a test frame of some kind with young larva
If they start cells take them down and put your apidea queen in the hive (using a push in cage if possible)
Merging the apidea is an unnecessary complication just let that raise a queen cell (usually just one) and you might have a fallback
Hope it works out

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[alancooper]

Gavin and DR,
Thanks for your very helpful comments, in particular checking: for eggs when swarm cells are produced (a definite miss); whether the brood area is disorganised with pollen and stores across the area (is this an indication that there is no Q around which workers can organise the brood nest?); for polished cells (does this indicate that there is a Q around which workers can organise the brood nest?).
Ah - the joys of bee-keeping and its unknowns.
Alan.

[gavin]

That is part of the joy - the continuous learning.

Yes, they help indicate queenlessness (or being queen-right). In their minds anyway. A test piece of comb is a better test.

[Adam]

As Gavin says, if there are polished cells where you would expect the queen to lay there's a pretty good chance that a queen is present. A test-frame will confirm and also help to ward off the possibility of laying workers developing.
IF there is a queen present there is a good chance that the introduced queen will be killed.

[Jon]

More than a good chance. It is 100% certain.

[alancooper]

On the 29th August, I put in a test frame of eggs. I should probably have done it before I started this thread and now realise that with the "do I wait longer" part of my question was not really possible to answer.

[alclosier]

By now they should be drawing q cells if q-

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[alancooper]

Yes - my plan is to look at the introduced frame this weekend then decide what to. I have an apidea with a mated/laying Q.

[alancooper]

:confused:An update on adding a frame of eggs is:
3/4/16 There were no Q cells on the test frame (just large larvae and sb) and no signs of a Q, eggs, or any sb in the brood box or the supers. There were masses of workers and occasional drones ( I do not think there was a swarm in July or recently). The brood frames had no brood but did have pollen and nectar, largely in the top half of brood frames. Some central brood frames had polished worker cells. Supers had capped honey and nectar).
Is it likely that in this crowded hive that: a Q (if present) has not been fertilised but is still signalling "Q substance" to the workers?; a fertile Q is present but is not laying because the hive does not need more brood to support yet?

I have an apidea with a laying Q and need to decide whether to put her into a poly nuc to over-winter or wait until I am sure about my problem hive. The least risky option seems to be to start the poly nuc. What odds would you give for each option?

[Jon]

You have some sort of a queen in there.
Whether she is mated or virgin makes no difference as they will not draw queen cells either way.
When you put in a test frame into a broodless hive you nearly always find the queen is on the test frame so check it out very carefully.

[alancooper]

Jon - you comment helps greatly. I will try to find the Q - good to know that she will probably be on the test frame (having failed a couple of times to find her). Given the time since I introduced a virgin, the likelihood is that she is unmated. If I find her I can then consider re-queening using my apidea Q.

[Feckless Drone]

I will try to find the Q - .

I would give some syrup and wait a week. I've seen Qs stop laying in Aug and got worried about it but I don't think its unusual. If you have not had much forage then the colony is maybe stalled a bit.
Still worth looking for the Q and marking her to help with whatever is to come.

[Jon]

I checked a nuc on Friday past and I was sure it was queenless as there was no brood apart from a few sealed cells with dead bees inside, ie the usual mite problems. I put in a test frame and the original queen was on it when I checked yesterday. She must have stopped laying for at least 3 weeks.

[Emma]

Most of my queens have either stopped laying or radically slowed down by now, with the brood nests being filled in with stores, often starting furthest from the entrance. I've started feeding now, which may prompt some to start laying again, but I mostly won't be bothering checking. Most have plenty of young bees, & they usually slow down this time of year.
The varroa drops are going up at the same time, as the brood emerges & no new brood cells are available for mites to hide in.

[alclosier]

If you really struggle to find the queen in the hive get a spare bb and super put a qe between them. Have this about 5-10 metres to the side and shake off all the bees in the original hive into the filter box. Make sure you have something for the bees to go back to at the original site.

This should allow you find the queen above the qe in a few minutes as the rest will either fly off or go through the qe.

It is disruptive, but sometimes can be the only way. At the end after isolating the queen you want gone return frames and shake any remaining bees into the main box.

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[Adam]

If queens in the mini-nucs have mated and are laying and the queen in the hive is not laying; there is a reasonable chance that there is something wrong. Seiving through a queen excluder should - we hope - find her*. To voice concerns - sorry - patches of polished cells rather than a clear and definite area in the centre of the brood area might indicate laying workers are ready to start and no development of queencells from introduced eggs could also be a sign. :(

* Shake out in front of the hive and allow the bees to walk up a ramp and back in, a queen excluder under the brood box stops her from getting back so you should find her under the Q/ex the following day; maybe with a few drones as well.

[alancooper]

??
FD said - "I would give some syrup and wait a week" to encourage laying from a fertile Q that might be present in my hive. I did this but five days later (10 Sept) - still no eggs - just sb on the test frame. In the hive, there are large numbers of workers and a few drones, unsealed and sealed honey, lots of pollen and ivy pollen being brought in. But it looks as if the hive is Qless (6 weeks now since no eggs and no sign of a Q). Tomorrow (alclosier), I plan to put the hive through a Qx filter before deciding whether to merge with a Qright hive (a Qright apidea I had was cleaned out overnight by wasps so I have no spare Q).
I hope that there is not a small unmated virgin Q in the hive or that laying workers (not yet active) that will go thought the filter. At this late stage should I go through with the merger or empty the hive in a field down the road and let the bees return to my apiary of five Qright hives?
Alan.

[Feckless Drone]

Hi there - I would feed and wait some more. What you describe, well the impression I get, is a colony just waiting for the Q to come into lay. Are you sure there are no eggs? Look for a patch of polished cells, sometimes nearby will be a store of royal jelly just ready for use. The pollen coming in is always a good sign.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Alan
"26/7/16 - 8 sealed Qcells; 7 frames with sb;"
They were replaced with a virgin on the 31/7/16

I think if that was going to have worked the queen would have mated within a week of being released and been laying within 10 days of that so a max of about 3 weeks

Your sealed brood will all be hatched long ago about 12 days or so after you found it sealed
I'm guessing they were hatching about mid August so those bees are getting on for about 4 weeks old now

I think its too late for anything but a laying queen now
You could combine them with another hive but that might be fairly pointless if the bees are all older

The problem still exists there possibly another duff queen in there
I might be tempted try a small patch of lava or grafts to see if that still is the case because useless queens frequently disappear
One day later you can see if they have made any starts
Failing that sometimes smoke can help because the duff queen heads to the honey with the rest of the bees

Lots of queens stop laying at this time of year but with the queen cell issues etc I doubt that’s what’s happening here with your hive Alan

[alancooper]

Yes DR, I think you have summed it up nicely. I am used to Qs taking a laying break at this time of the year, but it has been the thought of a duff Q (we had a terrible wet July and August) being present that has had me dithering. I will try your tempter suggestion until the weather breaks then call time on the hive and make the best of things. Thanks.

[alancooper]

Happy ending,
DR - I did not try your tempter - a combination of other commitments and laziness setting.
Feckless D - I fed syrup 12/9
Jon - 20/9 there were three frames of sealed brood in a good pattern.
Gavin - another rung on the learning curve climbed.
Alan.

[Jon]

There have been several perfect queen mating days in the past fortnight. I have had 10-15 queens from my last couple of grafts start to lay in the past week or so.

[The Drone Ranger]

Thats great Alan a nice new queen lots of new brood
At least it shows when they don't start cells they do have a queen
Other than that I was 100% wrong
I'm the Russell Grant of beekeeping lol :)

[Feckless Drone]

I fed syrup 12/9


Sounds promising. I would now feed some more! And get them set for winter now I guess.

DR- any predictions for what kind of winter Taurens are going to have?

[The Drone Ranger]

30° in the shade ?

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