Queen-rearing in a queen-right colony

[Mellifera Crofter]

When rearing queens using the queen-right method (Ben Harden method) you add the frame of cells in the top brood box; seal the top box from the bottom box with the queen for a day; and then open them and wait for the cells to be capped. Now, with all those growing or sealed queen cells in the top box, wouldn't the colony be induced to think it's time to swarm? I don't want to lose my precious queen.
Kitta

[gavin]

Hi Kitta

The Ben Harden method (really the Wilkinson and Brown method: http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?sectionid=80 ) only uses a queen excluder and super to separate existing queen from grafts. No issues with swarming in my experience (or anyone else's I believe).

Many folk (including me) who have used found it less reliable some summers but perhaps with the better conditions this year it will do well.

G.

[fatshark]

Hi Kitta
With Ben Harden you don't seal/separate the boxes. With the Cloake board you do. The separation of the maturing/sealed QC's means the colony does not swarm. At least, not usually. I have had a BH cell raiser swarm through my own incompetence in not checking for QC's in the bottom box.

[fatshark]

Gavin and his nimble fingers beat me to it as I was reading a PM from him ...

I'd certainly second his comment re. reliability. There needs to be a good nectar flow or feed them well. As the OSR goes over (perhaps not a problem for you) it gets trickier. I've built Cushman-Style fat dummies with inbuilt feeders and even gone so far as sprinkling pollen in drawn comb one side of the grafts.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thank you, Gavin and Fatshark. I'll relax!

I've separated the boxes with a crown board for a day (Ben Harden in his booklet suggests that might improve acceptance), and I'm about to go back and replace it with a queen excluder. They were on double brood, Fatshark - so no need for dummies.

They have lots of honey and nectar and pollen - but I'll go and add some syrup as well. Thanks for mentioning that, and thanks for the link, Gavin.

Kitta

[fatshark]

On a well-packed double brooded colony I'd have been tempted to use a Cloake board where you can manipulate the top box to be literally overflowing with bees. The colony manipulations are simplicity itself ...

[Mellifera Crofter]

No - I failed. When I went back this afternoon to exchange the crown board for a queen excluder, I saw that they've let all the larvae dry out, so I removed the cell frame.

I don't understand the 'simplicity itself', Fatshark! I'm going off to learn some more about queen-rearing later in July. Perhaps I'll wise up then.

Actually, it was a disappointing afternoon. A newspaper unite I did also failed. I did it two days ago and thought I heard them chewing away, but when I opened it, I saw that they've done nothing. They all flew out and back to the site where their hive used to be. So, I rehoused them there and will have to sort them out later.

Kitta

[fatshark]

Apologies ... the simplicity itself was a comment on the Cloake board setup ... rearrange the frames, turn the hive, wait, slide in, grafts in, slide out, use the cells ... with a few checks here and there.

Hang on a second ... did you say exchange the crown board for a QE? I assume the CB was solid with no way for the Q to get through? If they're ignoring the grafts it sounds like they were either damaged when grafting (usually not a problem, certainly not all of them) or they were "not ready" which could be all sorts of things, usually accompanied with a sort of helpless shrug :confused:

[Mellifera Crofter]

I probably damaged the larvae when grafting, Fatshark! I went 'ouch' each time I picked picked one up. They're so fragile. The queen was definitely in the lower box. I think my next attempt will be with a Nicot or with the Drone Ranger's plunger tool for selecting one cell at a time.

Kitta

[fatshark]

Did you use a paintbrush or one of those horrible Chinese grafting tools Kitta? The choice is very personal but I could never cope with the latter. An 00 or 000 sable paintbrush works a treat. Don't believe any of the nonsense on not turning the larvae over ... all utter rubbish. If the BH system is set up properly and the grafts don't take you can graft again immediately. You can easily tell whether the grafts have been accepted at 4-6 hours by the collar of wax around the cup (assuming plastic) so you can graft in the morning, check in the afternoon and have another go if you think you butchered them. Practice makes perfect ;)

[Jon]

Unless your are really clumsy which is unlikely, the key thing is the state of the colony. Some times I graft and they start 2/20, the next day it might be 18/20. As fatshark says, you can check very quickly. I remember once checking an hour after I did the grafts and they had removed all but one or two larvae. No need to wait a couple of days before checking.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi kitta
chinese grafting tools are a bit stiff usually so I use Mrs DR 's emery boards to thin them down a bit

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thank you, FS, Jon and DR. I did not know one can check the grafts so quickly. I'll let the colony recover now from all that kerfuffle I caused them and try again Monday or so.

I tried all those tools: a 00 brush, the Chinese tool and a metal one. I mostly used the metal one. Perhaps I should have trimmed the cell walls more for a better angle.

I'll try again!

Kitta

[Jon]

All I ever use is a 000 sable brush.

[mbc]

All I ever use is a 000 sable brush.


Me too, and a nice little light helps me get um up.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I think mine is 00 - I'll get a 000 brush. Do the larvae just stick to the brush, or do you manoeuvre the brush underneath the larva?
Kitta

[Jon]

make sure to keep the larva near the tip of the brush rather than half way up. It will be much easier to leave in the cup.

[Kate Atchley]

Unless your are really clumsy which is unlikely, the key thing is the state of the colony. Some times I graft and they start 2/20, the next day it might be 18/20. As fatshark says, you can check very quickly. I remember once checking an hour after I did the grafts and they had removed all but one or two larvae. No need to wait a couple of days before checking.

Recently I had very poor results from methods which generally work and it was during that very hot sunny weather, when the bees were foraging frantically. I wondered if they were simply too well fed and busy foraging and storing food to be bothered with drawing new cells. The queens were first year which is not ideal either.

Set up 2 sets of "grafts" yesterday (daft name for moving larvae) and hope for better results. I tend to hold off checking for 4 days because I've know previously accepted cells be abandoned if checked too soon. However, that assumes there will be a result of some kind!

Then there's the June gap coming up. That will make a difference too.

Yes, conditions vary and matter and the influences on the bees can be hard to identify.

[Kate Atchley]

Kitta, I was re-reading some queen rearing bumf and thought this was about as simple a method as can be achieved, if cells are to be started in a queenless environment and finished in a queen right colony. See http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/peteredwardsstartfin.html

I haven't tried precisely this method but something similar. It is more reliable starting QCs without contact being possible with the queen.

[madasafish]

I use one colony for starting and raising.

Remove Q on frame to nuc. Insert grafts (I use cell punch). for 24 hours.
Shield started QCs with QE cover and replace Queen from nuc after 24 hours.

Uses far fewer resources.

(My queens are all marked and do NOT run).2695

[Jon]

Kate - cell starter colonies were going really well during the recent warm weather both queenless and queenright cell starters.
If they were not starting many cells there must have been some other problem.
Mine were starting around 17/20 grafts.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi madasafish
Good cell protector I must make one

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks Kate, I've copied the article and will keep it handy for my next attempt. Jon, good weather has been patchy on my hill - but I don't think that was a problem. More likely clumsy fingers or larvae drying out, or something else ...

(Those floppy queen excluders do have their uses, I see!)

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Kate, I've copied the article and will keep it handy for my next attempt. Jon, good weather has been patchy on my hill - but I don't think that was a problem. More likely clumsy fingers or larvae drying out, or something else ...

(Those floppy queen excluders do have their uses, I see!)

Kitta

Hi kitta
some bees are not that keen as a cell raisers
If you are using the ben harden (queeright) method putting the super between the brood box and the cell raiser doesn't hurt
If you are using the chinese tool (made thinner) I find going in from the part of the cell nearest the top bar is best (they slope)
That seems more awkward but the larva is less likely to touch the wall on the way out
Because its hard to get good light I don't really look for the larva now just the wet glistening patch at the bottom of the cell
Once I have scooped it with the tool I have a look at my larva before putting it in the cup
I'm no great shakes grafting I have 18 mininucs with virgins and 10 cells with cages at the moment
Now the new wax has been drawn and firmed up a bit I'll be doing some punching

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks, John, for some useful tips I wasn't aware of - especially going in from the top.
Kitta