New queen loose somewhere.

[Greengage]

Hive 1,On Friday last had new queen emerge from supercedure cell. Went through hive and removed all other queen cells. I assumed everything would be ok. Because it was supercedure the old together in the hive until the new one was mated.
Sunday the hive swarmed found old queen on ground outside and placed her in Nuc wiith some stores and frames of bees.
Rechecked the first hive (Hive1) and found another sealed queen cell, which I missed on previous inspection, so left that in place with a posible new unclipped queen in Hive Why?
Because I could not locate the new queen (Unmated) so dont know if she is in there or not. She could have been transferred to Nuc.
Anyway in setting up the Nuc I now do not know if the new Queen was accidently transfered into the nuc with the Old Queen or if she is still in the other hive.
So I now have a Hive wiith a sealed cell and a posible new queen in there.
I have a Nuc with an old queen and posibly a newly hatched unmated queen.
What is liable to happen Now?
If the new queen is in Hive 1 with a sealed queen cell is it likely to swarm again or will the new queen kill the sealed queen.
If I only have a sealed queen cell she will emerge and get mated and all will be well.
In the nuc if I have only the old queen all should be well as she is a last years queen.
In the Nuc if I have two queens an old queen an a newly emerged queen from the supercedure will it swarm.
What do you think will happen. As a lecture once said to me Discuss, I went DOOOH
Appreciate any advice tks.

[gavin]

First of all, this wasn't a supersedure. Just the usual swarming preparations.

If there is a virgin in the nuc with the old queen she'll likely be history by now.

Yes, there is a strong risk that the box with the queen cell will, if there is a virgin in there too, swarm (though it might not). Are you in a position to make a small split into a nuc box with the queen cell? That would mean that the risk of the virgin being in there is lower, and if they do swarm it will be a small one. Make sure it isn't so weak that the cell gets chilled. Then see if the main box of bees settles, or starts more queen cells (there should still be 1 day old larvae today). If it does, then you could remove them and reunite with the queen cell (but don't delay in case she emerges and starts orientating).

[Greengage]

Appreciate that thanks, I will check again in couple of days.
I thought if the cell was in the middle of a frame it was supercedure and those hanging from the sides or the bottom were swarm cells. I had noted this cell which I called a supercedure on the face of a comb which I believed was different to the swarm cells or emergency cells as it hung straight down and did not protrude out from the face and then down.
Would I be right in assuming that if it was a supercedure it would only be one cell and no other queen cells of any discription visible in the hive. Thanks for your time.

[Jon]

Supersedure cells can be anywhere on the frame and swarm cells can be anywhere on the frame.
if there are only one or two cells it is likely supersedure, any more and it is normal swarm preparations.

[Greengage]

Thanks for that Jon, but having read through my Litriture and looked on line at photos all indications pointed to supercedure, cell located in right place, propor profile as per pictures and only one other cell that I noticed and removed, looks like I missed one so was wrong, Is there any foolproof way to tel,l yes, thats supercedure or mmmm thats swarm preperation, I also believed the hive would only swarm once the cell was capped but these swarmed 3 days after the new queen emerged.

[gavin]

As Jon said, cell position is no guide. If they make 1 or 2 cells then stop making any more, it is probably supersedure. However even then - in the main swarming season - I would be cautious. Clipping queens is the best protection against losing a swarm in these circumstances.

[gavin]

Appreciate that thanks, I will check again in couple of days.

Looking through your post again, the first swarm cell opened two days before the swarm. You probably allowed that by opening the hive - up to that point the bees would be holding that virgin in and they would all be waiting for some reason (weather?) for a swarming opportunity. With the old queen swarming two days later that would give her plenty of time to kill her daughter. After she's gone they will let another virgin out once she's ready. So I don't think you need worry about a virgin on the loose.

I would check that they haven't raised additional queen cells since Sunday as they could cause a cast when the first virgin is ready to fly.

[Greengage]

Ok that would make sence, As it now stands there is one and only one sealed queen cell in the hive that swarmed, I now assume the old queen killed the newly hatched queen before swarming, The old queen is in a nuc box in the same apiary and the hive that swarmed is now queenless exceppt for the sealed queen cell.
So if the newly sealed queen cell is a failure I could reunite the Nuc with the main hive in a few weeks, would I be right in my thinking, this would only occur if the sealed queen fails to emerge and mate.

[The Drone Ranger]

Its no help to you GG now but for those horrible moments when you find queen cells and eggs but cant spot the queen this might e a useful trick
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/taranovswm.html

I havent used a Taranov board but it looks like a simple way of getting the queen and the swarm bees off to a new home before they do their own thing
Has anyone tried this ?

Excuse typos there are stiking keys on this keyboard

[Adam]

You have one of those difficult situations that comes along now and again.. Fun times!

If you are not sure whether you have a virgin with a queencell as well, you could 'pull' the queen out of it's queencell - i.e. open it up gently and don't pull! With two or more queens and no queencells you will not get a swarm as the girls will sort things out for themselves. If the pulled queen is not viable because she is too young then you could possibly have a queenless colony. However you have possibly prevented a swarm with the virgin leaving the single queencell behind.

No matter - as you have your mated queen in a nuc which will presumably start to lay soon, you can pop a frame of eggs/larvae into the donor colony. If there are queencells, it WAS queenless. If there are no queencells, then there's a virgin in there somewhere.

(Sorry - 3 days too late perhaps?)

[The Drone Ranger]

Y
(Sorry - 3 days too late perhaps?)


Its the thought that counts :)

[Greengage]

Ill know more tomorrow and let you know.

[Greengage]

Ok that would make sence, As it now stands there is one and only one sealed queen cell in the hive that swarmed, I now assume the old queen killed the newly hatched queen before swarming, The old queen is in a nuc box in the same apiary and the hive that swarmed is now queenless exceppt for the sealed queen cell.
So if the newly sealed queen cell is a failure I could reunite the Nuc with the main hive in a few weeks, would I be right in my thinking, this would only occur if the sealed queen fails to emerge and mate.

Ok back to the drawing board, I revisited my Apiary yesterday Sunday, I observed a lot of bees flying around black current bush mmm that would make an interesting photo, But hold on when i got there there was a very large swarm hanging from the bush, so that was the end of the photos expedition, So where did it come from outside my apiary or inside, I checked my hive that I had a sealed queen cell and possible virgin queen, remember I moved the old queen to a Nuc, The sealed cell had hatched and bees were cleaning it out so I assume the swarm issued from here also there was less bees in it than the previous week. Now I placed the swarm in a Nuc along with a small frame of sealed brood I took from the origional hive hopeing the will stay put. Could I still have a new virgin in the hive, why did it swarm again, Iam positive there was only one sealed queen cell in the hive as last week I had brushed off all the bees in each frame to check and removed all queen cells and anything that looked like a queen cell leaving only one unopened queen cell. Iam not complaining as Iam increasing my stock of bees but very curious to know whats going on here. Anyone got any suggestions.

[Jon]

You mostlikely missed a queen cell. Very easy to miss one especially if it is tiny. Roger Patterson has some good photos of emergency queen cells and they are so small you could easily miss one. A cell like this will produce a queen not much bigger than a worker.

[Greengage]

Ok thanks, where could I se the pics are they on the internet, Small Queen, but can she be successful in keeping the colony together.

[Jon]

Very small queens usually don't mate properly. I saw the pics of the cells in one of Roger's presentations somewhere.

[fatshark]

Some of the smallest queens I've seen were raised in mating nucs after removing the queen that was mated in there i.e. I let the mating nuc raise their own, subsequently replacing her when the next round of cells was ready. Although not hugely satisfactory, it beats having to restock mating nucs twice a season if you're just raising a few queens at intervals. These tiddlers did mate successfully but were pretty stunted ... but they lasted long enough to keep the colony going.

[gavin]

Ok back to the drawing board, I revisited my Apiary yesterday Sunday, I observed a lot of bees flying around black current bush mmm that would make an interesting photo, But hold on when i got there there was a very large swarm hanging from the bush, so that was the end of the photos expedition, So where did it come from outside my apiary or inside, I checked my hive that I had a sealed queen cell and possible virgin queen, remember I moved the old queen to a Nuc, The sealed cell had hatched and bees were cleaning it out so I assume the swarm issued from here also there was less bees in it than the previous week. Now I placed the swarm in a Nuc along with a small frame of sealed brood I took from the origional hive hopeing the will stay put. Could I still have a new virgin in the hive, why did it swarm again, Iam positive there was only one sealed queen cell in the hive as last week I had brushed off all the bees in each frame to check and removed all queen cells and anything that looked like a queen cell leaving only one unopened queen cell. Iam not complaining as Iam increasing my stock of bees but very curious to know whats going on here. Anyone got any suggestions.

Here's my take on this, no need to postulate small queen cells.

Fri 13th. Your colony had prepared to swarm but delayed until the first virgin was ready to emerge. Disturbing the colony stopped the workers inhibiting the emergence and she emerged while you inspected. As the old queen was still in residence she may have killed that first virgin, not sure.

Sun 15th. The colony swarmed and on this day the old queen laid her last egg.

From reading your posts, I'm guessing you are visiting weekly and didn't intervene to remove additional queen cells? See post #7.

Sun 15th to Thurs 19th. The colony makes new queen cells from the eggs laid by the old queen, including in worker cells which is something I see regularly in such colonies.

Sun 22nd. They're off with the first virgin in a cast, leaving behind the new queen cell(s).

Colonies that have started swarming preparations are usually determined to do so. Almost all will continue to make more queen cells while they can. What I try to do is leave only open queen cells so that I can leave it a full week or a bit more before returning. No virgins will hatch in that time. If you leave a sealed cell you need to do something else: return in about five days to remove all additional cells, or put a queen excluder under the brood box if you don't plan returning early to deal with the additional queen cells.

[Greengage]

Thanks Gavin, I think Iam on top of the situation, I have the swarm housed in a Nuc and they are stil there as of this morning so thats three days, I think they will stay put. I have the old Queen also in a Nuc and she also seems happy (In so far as she is calm on the drawn comb and the bees seem content not that I can read their minds) As to the origional hive where the swarm came from there are no eggs but some capped brood and uncapped brood, I will leave this for a week to see what happens checking for queen cells on Thursday thats 4 days since last inspection if nothing is happening thereI may unite it with the swarm. Thanks to all for advice.
I have another story to tell from a different apiary 9Ill post under different thread) but ill wait to see what happens today, Suffice to say I was playing around with double Brood boxs and created a monster or perfect storm more tomorrow when I figure out what to do.
P.S Jon, Mark Zucker tells me its your Birthday. "Happy Birthday".

[gavin]

As to the origional hive where the swarm came from there are no eggs but some capped brood and uncapped brood, I will leave this for a week to see what happens checking for queen cells on Thursday thats 4 days since last inspection if nothing is happening thereI may unite it with the swarm. Thanks to all for advice.


Couple of points:

- will all the brood not be too old now to permit more queen cells to be produced?
- why unite? Are you not better waiting?

The queen in the original hive may take a month to mate and start laying. Up to that point, be careful what you do. She may have orientated to that location, and there will be another queen (I forget whether a virgin or a mated queen) in the swarm. Better to give them the chance to mate and get established, then decide what to do.

[Greengage]

OK thanks for that, But here is the thing I have placed the swarm in a Nuc, with Only one frame of capped brood and no eggs twice they have left the hive hung up on a nearby tree and returned. What's going on here might they take off again or are they just trying to stress me out.:confused:

[Jon]

Have they enough room in the nuc?

[Greengage]

Yes but im going to transfer them to a brood box with some dummy boards to see what happens, I gave them some drawn comb some brood and some combs to draw hoping that would keep them entertained, It has been 22 deg here for the past few days so wondering if that has anything to do with it.