Newly hatched Q ejected from nuc

[alancooper]

A colony inspection - 20th April - showed a second year marked Queen, plenty bees. eggs sealed brood (good pattern), some sealed drone brood and plenty stores. The colony has good qualities and I had planned to rear Qs from it. Just over a week or so later a second inspection showed no eggs, some old-ish unsealed larvae, sealed brood and four sealed Q cells - no Queen (despite a second search). Thinking that something had happened to the Q I decided the best plan would be to make up an Apidea nuc and a Poly nuc, leaving 2 sealed Q cells in the colony.
Within the three or four day window that I estimated queen cells might hatch, I noticed (while on a "displacement activity" mid-day bee-hive watch) a warm dead queen on the nuc landing platform (it was light-ish brown but overnight on the kitchen table it turned dark and under a hand lens had all its "bits"). I am sure there was only one Queen cell on the introduced nuc frame and that the colony Q had not been transferred to the nuc in error.
Am I being optimistic in asking if anyone has an explanation or am I being too confident that I have not accidentally killed the colony Q or transferred her to the nuc?
Alan.

[Jon]

If your queen had an accident on 20th April during the inspection you would expect queens to be emerging from emergency queen cells 12 days later, ie 2nd May.
If you found a fully formed queen on the landing board then those dates dont stack up. There must have been queen cells started already during the inspection on 20th April.

[prakel]

A queen started from an older larvae could well be emerging on or about the tenth day (despite claims elsewhere that bees never try to rear queens from older larvae...).

[Jon]

But yesterday was 9 days and a 9 day queen, if it were even possible, would be the size of a worker.
I suspect something else must be the cause of this.

[prakel]

As it darkened overnight I'd be inclined to speculate that it wasn't fully mature -at least, I've never seen a fully mature queen darken in a noticeable way and certainly not in such a short period as 'overnight'. Probably not going to get a definite answer -the way to do that would have been to open the queen cells when found, note the stage of development and then throw them away.

[The Drone Ranger]

I have a paynes double nuc on 5 + frames of brood
There were just sealed cells and an open one on todays inspection
Possibly squeezed the queen between frames or something last inspection
Couldn't spot her but she might be there
Anyway took down all the cells and I'll have a check in a couple of days
Dependant on what I find next I can use a queen from a mininuc (I have 3 left)
It would be pointless to have let the cells get to maturity next week it just makes things harder

Well thats' my take on it I'm sure not everyone would agree

I think you will get your answer alan at the next inspection
Your queen sounds like she was removed by the bees probably dead
There might be another virgin running around
Just a guess though :)

[alancooper]

I inspected the colony brood frame with Q cells yesterday (30th April) - and found an open Q cell (hatched) - it looks as if I missed seeing young Q cells on 23rd April and that I had killed the colony Q at an April 13th inspection (a check on my hive notes shows that I had not recorded eggs present on the 20th April). I wonder why the dead immature nuc queen had hatched?
Thanks for the comments. I will let you know if the colony and Apidea manage to get fertile Qs established.

[alancooper]

Your queen sounds like she was removed by the bees probably dead
There might be another virgin running around
Ah - another one running around would make my day.

[Jon]

Agree with DR. You probably have a virgin queen in there.
Makes more sense with the revised date.
If your queen was killed on the 13th there were likely virgin queens emerging from the 25th onwards.

Prakel, a lot of the queens I see emerge in the incubator get a bit darker over the next few hours from emergence.

[prakel]

Agree with DR. You probably have a virgin queen in there.

Me too.


Makes more sense with the revised date.
If your queen was killed on the 13th there were likely virgin queens emerging from the 25th onwards.

I'm not sure that it makes any sense as there was open brood a week after the twentieth, so where could that have come from if the queen was killed on the 13th.


Prakel, a lot of the queens I see emerge in the incubator get a bit darker over the next few hours from emergence.

Yes, I agree that very recently emerged queens darken up, that was my point. But they're not really what I refer to as mature. In this context I'm differentiating between a weak recently emerged (or pulled from it's cell by a competitor) virgin and one that's had chance to strengthen up a little.

This is one we prepared earlier:
26752676

[Jon]

I am lost now!
The first post says there was a marked queen seen on the 20th but a later post says the queen must have been killed on the 13th.
The first post says there were eggs on the 20th then the later post says eggs were not seen on the 20th.
Must be some confusion re. dates.

[alancooper]

Oooops........ the date in my first post should have been 13th April (brain-fade between my apiary and desk-top email).
So - hive inspection 13th April (Q accident).
Then - no eggs and 4 sealed Q cells at inspection a week later on the 20th.
Then - dead immature Q found at nuc entrance during the week.
Then, empty hatched Q cell in the donor colony at inspection on the 30th).
Grateful for your patience and useful comments.

[The Drone Ranger]

Wouldn't worry about it Alan
The good news is the weather is improving and the new queen might get mated
The hive will be set back though and you won't know if she is mated and laying for around 3 or 4 weeks (at a guess)


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[Jon]

That makes sense then. If a virgin emerged around 25th April, she will be old enough to take mating flights from about 2nd May onwards.
The weather looks good for mating flights from mid May.

http://www.forecast.co.uk/belfast.html

Not too many drones about at the moment but should be a lot better in 2-3 weeks.

[gavin]

Seems to fit the timing. Queen accidentally killed 13 April. Emergency cells from up to 2 day larvae (3 as egg, 2 as larva). 16-5=11. 13 April +11= 24 April. Workers let first emerged queen kill her sisters around 24/26 April. Corpse soon removed and jetisoned.

Snap! (ish) :)

[Calluna4u]

You have all probably got there by now. Sounds like you have it worked out.

However......

This is not untypical of over early inspections. I cannot imagine that Fermanagh has a season that starts a lot earlier than ours. We have done precisely ZERO main hive inspections to date. We tried a spot of queen marking about 10 days ago but abandoned it as it was both still too cold and the bees were not yet at crossover day, so raking in about them was just not needed. No drones except in defectives. Only exception has thus far been the nucs for sale. Not seen even a hint of swarm preparations.

Going in too early sharply increases the risk of queen loss, and if you lose a queen at a very early stage of the season which means you have virgins around before there are mature drones, then you will be very lucky to have a happy outcome.

Queen loss as a result of inspections increases with the earliness of inspections, and also in direct proportion to the number of inspections. Too many inspections, and especially very early inspections, and the risk in much increased. There is not much to be gained from inspections so early, and a lot to lose. Curiosity killed the cat?

[alancooper]

Point taken about early inspections - neither were the conditions ideal in mid-April (or now for that matter). Last week a beek friend mentioned that at first inspection of the year a young Queen can die from "fright" :) - probably just another way of saying that "going in too early sharply increases the risk of Q loss".

[Jon]

They don't die from fright! They die getting nipped between two side bars, falling off a frame into the grass, or getting balled due to the disturbance.
An early inspection should really just be a quick check for worker brood. As soon as you see worker brood, close up. No need to find queens.
Weekly inspections in April are not necessary this far north as the risk of losing a swarm is minimal. Beekeepers in the south of England are about a month ahead of us.
Some people have had bees starve recently so hefting for stores is useful in April.

[Calluna4u]

Spot on Jon. Balling is a real risk when going into hives in adverse circumstances. If you do it you should have a very valid reason. Plain inquisitiveness is not a good reason.

As for queens that 'die' from fright? Well you do get queens that look as if they have dropped dead during inspections. Unless you see actual serious physical damage to her then don't assume she is dead.....she becomes unconscious ....and slowly recovers...usually 10 mins later (maybe more) she is running about the comb again as if nothing happened. Whilst not common its not rare either.

[mbc]

Ah yes, queens playing dead, never the most reassuring thing in beekeeping!

[alancooper]

Curiosity killed the cat?
Not wishing to detract from the helpful comments and useful advice in this thread - but curiosity does go along with other ways of learning such as listening to others, reading about bees and practical working.

[The Drone Ranger]

Not wishing to detract from the helpful comments and useful advice in this thread - but curiosity does go along with other ways of learning such as listening to others, reading about bees and practical working.
There have been some nice days when a quick check gave a good picture of how the best and worst were progressing
On balance I think it has been a good thing for me but you couldn't contemplate doing that as part of your planned work for the year in a business setting where you have hundreds of hives and lots of staff
Most of the time the same risks of bumping the queen are there but without drones to mate a replacement it's more serious
If I only had one or two hives I might not risk it either
I'm thinking about Snelgrove boards now just waiting for first rape flowers and seeing drones in the hives

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[Calluna4u]

Not wishing to detract from the helpful comments and useful advice in this thread - but curiosity does go along with other ways of learning such as listening to others, reading about bees and practical working.

Sorry if it seemed to have a tone about it that ruffled you...was not meant that way.

I get a wee bit fed up of the emails I have been getting since early march from people who think they might have killed their queen doing early inspections...at a time when bees should be very much left alone. You can only hurt them early on, not help them.

They are looking to buy queens to introduce. I think they read too many high peeing competitions on various forums as they are sometimes surprised we don't have any new seasons home bred queens yet, and cannot offer any certainty of home bred supplies until well into June.

Curiosity? Well yes of course its a good thing, but in bees it can cost you. They do best when disturbed only as necessary.

I wish I could claim so high ground on this but no.....I do the nosey trick myself too often, though much less than I used to....and it rarely works out better than leaving well alone.

[Jon]

They are looking to buy queens to introduce. I think they read too many high peeing competitions on various forums as they are sometimes surprised we don't have any new seasons home bred queens yet, and cannot offer any certainty of home bred supplies until well into June.

Again I think that is a geography thing. In the south of England some start grafting mid April but that is never going to happen up north.
I have managed to get a batch started on 1st May last couple of years but this year I am hoping to get going around the 10th.
First queens ready will be in the second half of June at the earliest.

Some people just don't understand the process. I get emails looking for current year queens from the start of April.

[The Drone Ranger]

I get a wee bit fed up of the emails I have been getting since early march from people who think they might have killed their queen doing early inspections...at a time when bees should be very much left alone. You can only hurt them early on, not help them.

I wish I could claim so high ground on this but no.....I do the nosey trick myself too often, though much less than I used to....and it rarely works out better than leaving well alone.

Hi C4u

Mostly I have been looking at the Paynes poly nucs I overwintered
I don't think I will overwinter them again its too tricky

Some at about 23 April (or whatever that good day was) had 2 or 3 frames of brood on double nuc no worries
Some had 5 or 6 getting a bit ahead of themselves again on double
One had 9 on a double poly getting very crowded not ideal
One single nuc had 5 solid frames of brood no space left and only 1 frame with food

The Smith hives on the other hand were all just left till yesterday and today (double broods)
Much easier to manage
The cold weather hasn't held them back by much if at all but there is wide variations in colony size
Wish all my queens were more closely related like the NZ queens you mentioned
Only 4 breeder mothers might have its advantages
Did all the hives develop at the same pace ?

[alancooper]

This is an update on my Q accident and subsequent attempts to re-queen:
The "accident hive" turned out to be queen-less and developed laying workers - so I emptied the hive 50 yards from the apiary.
Inspection of apideas and a nuc, started with salvaged sealed emergency Q cells, showed that the Qs had hatched but that there were no signs of her or eggs about two weeks after hatching , despite the best warm, sunny, windless May for a long time. A couple of emergency Q cells that hatched in an incubator were, indeed decent looking Qs. Would laying workers have found their way back to the apiary and killed newly hatched apidea Qs (I used nurse bees from other hives in the apideas but the nuc had brood and bees from the "accident hive")? I can understand laying workers killing the emergency Q hatching in the nuc with its associated frame bees.