EFB & cell cleaning questions

[EK.Bee]

Confused as usual !
My understanding:
The cells become coated with millions of M.plutonius when the mid gut of the prepupae joins with the rectum & the bee poops into the cell for the first time
The prepupa then spins a silk coccoon against the walls of the cell but as the bee has been weakened by the infection the coccoon might be a bit substandard (therefore some of the infected poop is exposed) A young cleaner bee comes along to polish the cell after the new bee has emerged & gets infected with the EFB bacterium

Is this correct?

I know they use propalis in the polishing process but exactly what is involved?

In ordinary circumstances (ie no EFB ) is the larval poop sealed under the coccoon for all time or is it removed? (sorry if this is basic stuff but I thought I
understood it until I realised I don't :o)

I think the coccoon is not removed but therefore what stops the internal dimensions of the cell from getting progressively smaller with use?

Where does the infection reside in the newly infected cleaner bees? Does it live in the hypopharyngeal glands like Sacbrood? & why doesn't the 9 HDA in the mouth kill it (as they say it stops the adult bees from being infected with AFB?

Mellissococcus or Melisococcus ? I see it spelled both ways ( even in the same BBKA info pdf)

Can anyone enlighten me please. If I can get to grips with this I will be a happier bunny

[Calluna4u]

Not going to go into the fine details about the EFB side of this....mainly because much of it I don't actually know...suspect Gavin is your man for that.


However......do know that the bees undoubtedly re-engineer the cell from time to time.

We had some brood combs in service a long time back that were ancient. I have mentioned these before as they were very unusual frames with a very strange grid pattern wired foundation in them. They were black and like cardboard but the cells were no different in size from any other older brood comb. Astonishingly Dave Cushman had information about the origin of the frames AND the foundation. The frame pattern was in use from the late 19th century up to the 1950s and the foundation pattern was a short lived bright idea from the 1920s. Until these were destroyed by a new and failed extractor we foolishly bought some years ago they were still good brood combs.

The concept of comb cleaning in spring was finally proven to me when we went in for white Pierco plastic frames. After a full season of brood rearing in these the combs were just as black as any conventional comb. Completely opaque. In spring, during the initial brood nest expansion, the bees removed brown dust, which can be a little fibrous and drop it outside the door, usually at the outer edges of where the cluster is active. When examined you found that the plastic combs once again had translucent cell bases, so the bees had been removing the old cocoons. The cell walls remained dark, but I think that is due to coccoon material having partly replaced the wax.

Its less easy to see the dust if you have OMF's as they seem partly to just let it down through the mesh, but in spring on solid floor you can frequently see this housecleaning material dumped outside. Its a great sign of a colony growing well and expanding onto combs that were not in full use during winter.

[GRIZZLY]

(Honeybunch). Sacbrood is a virus but EFB is a bacterium. The bacteria of EFB get moved from the infected cell to the brood food via trophylaxis.
We should change brood comb regularly to rid the colony of diseases and to give the larvae clean full size cells to grow in. The size of the emerging bee is determined by the depth of the cell it developed in.

[Jon]

Surely it is just another of the many beekeeping myths that cells get smaller over time.

[Calluna4u]

Surely it is just another of the many beekeeping myths that cells get smaller over time.

100% agree with you.

[gavin]

Not sure there is a lot I can add but here goes ....

Yes, as C4U says, walls get stripped down from time to time. Maybe not all the time, maybe from time to time, like you see when removing wallpaper from some old house walls. No need to suggest imperfect cocoons as they'll dig down and expose old stuff anyway. Dave Cushman posted a picture on his site of old comb cut through with a razor and sitting in honey. You could see the laminated base of the cell with several generations of cocoon, but the side walls had been stripped back to its original thickness. You could also see wisps of dark stuff coming out of the cut wall of the comb into the honey.

So walls can be a source of old bacteria, bacteria that survive quite well for years.

There will be other sources of infection too, infection that could persist long enough on mouthparts to get into brood food then reinfect larvae. The scale from dried, dead EFB-infected larvae is supposed to be loose and so you may expect workers to be able to lift them out in one piece without exposing gut contents. Hopefully they then fly off and deposit them outside. However in some cells you can see larvae that died when just a day or two old and look like they have been glued to the floor in the dried brood food. These would have to be cut out piece by piece, risking the contamination of mouthparts. Another source of infection could be the larvae that staggered on and were capped over before they died. These end up a slimy mess and can't be removed in one piece in that state. The EFB bacterium does get (largely?) replaced by other bacteria but it seems likely there will still be some of the pathogenic type in there.

PS Little of this comes from reading the books, so isn't necessarily what people get taught.

[mbc]

PS Little of this comes from reading the books, so isn't necessarily what people get taught.

I agree.
One of the first and most enduring lessons i was taught with regards to foulbrood, either type but especially with afb when it gets gooey and tacky, is that the bees would deal with them fine by themselves if only they could use a little shovel and spade. It may sound a bit silly, but this image of the physical problem the bees have with cleaning up infective material explained an enormous amount about how the diseases persist and spread within a colony

[fatshark]

The other re-engineering you sometimes see is when a swarm moves into a box which only has drone comb in it ... they re-engineer the cells to raise workers.

[busybeephilip]

Surely it is just another of the many beekeeping myths that cells get smaller over time.

Afraid I don't agree with you on that one. There are plenty of images of cross sections of old comb that shows the larvae/pupal molts which are not removed by the bees on cleaning the cells, therefore, logically, cells do get smaller 25842585

see the difference between virgin comb and brood comb

[Jon]

logically, cells do get smaller

But as others have noted above, the old cocoons get cleaned out every now and again.
If you look at new comb which bees have been allowed to draw naturally the cells vary quite a lot in size and not just between worker size/drone size.

[busybeephilip]

But as others have noted above, the old cocoons get cleaned out every now and again.


As you say now and again, the images clearly show many generations of brood rearing have occurred with the real possibility of nosema spores, virus diseases and bacterial diseases lurking between the numerous layers of moults. I agree that now and again, like as in several years, the bees might rip down old black comb and rebuild it and so spreading anything that is hiding there through out the hive. Also, to equalize hive strengths, (eg in queen rearing many beeks will rearrange combs transferring excess to nucs or whatever) many persons will move frames between hives and so spreading any disease that might be there.

I still endorse a 3 year brood frame change as a sensible beekeeping practice, after all a sheet of foundation only costs about 90p and with so much AFB around at the present time everyone should be adhering to this basic practice.

[Jon]

A cell could easily have 10 generations of workers reared in it during a single season. If the cocoons were not removed your workers would be the size of ants by September!

[EK.Bee]

Thanks, so the consensus is that they remove as much material as they need to keep the cell size viable.
& don't worry about where the EFB might hide in the adult as they get exposed to enough to infect them as they perform
their house cleaning chores anyway

[EK.Bee]

Cl4U = You really ought to write a book & pass on your knowledge & experiences. (not jesting in any way here) Have you considered getting it all down on print to help new & not so new beekeepers? Appreciate that you've a lot on the go but it would be a shame not to get it all down on print

[busybeephilip]

A cell could easily have 10 generations of workers reared in it during a single season. If the cocoons were not removed your workers would be the size of ants by September!

In that picture there is a lot more than 10 or even 30, I know I would not be happy using comb like that.

[prakel]

I know I would not be happy using comb like that.

I agree, it simply makes no sense to keep brood comb longterm when there's no need to do so. As descussed on another recent(ish) thread, I'm now a convert to changing out comb. The effects of age on comb are perhaps never more evident than when we reclaim the wax.

[Jon]

Acetic acid fumes should kill of everything apart from AFB spores.

[Jon]

but yes,new comb is the best option.

[mbc]

but yes,new comb is the best option.

Not according to the bees, given the choice they prefer to rework old comb than building fresh, time after time if given the option we all know what they choose.
Shouldnt we be listening to them?

[busybeephilip]

Acetic acid fumes should kill of everything apart from AFB spores.

Its not so easy to get acetic acid at 80% in your local chemist

Digges used formalin ! and that was during the Irish black bee era, its hard to get too, maybe they use it for greenhouse fumigation

[prakel]

Not according to the bees, given the choice they prefer to rework old comb than building fresh, time after time if given the option we all know what they choose.
Shouldnt we be listening to them?

I think the problem is that bees are opportunists. They'll happily choose an infected comb over clean foundation because it's a means to an end, a way of securing their immediate future. This isn't necessarily a good thing.

Of course, the issue is how to get as much benefit as possible from new comb without stressing the bees by repeated short term knockbacks. Some hives are probably better than others in this regard; our 'one size box' hives are easily migrated onto regular new comb as a normal part of their management while the dadant deeps are more troublesome in the sense that they require more actual work and a higher level of judgement and even then we've only actually shifted a handful of the combs out of any one box.

Anyway, we all do things differently to a greater or lesser degree, in the past I was a big believer in keeping old comb to the point where I was probably a little uncharitable to those who made an effort to keep a regular rotation going. It's definitely a multifaceted debate which can be argued with strength from either perspective but for myself I'm now happy to push the bees towards new comb.

[mbc]

It's definitely a multifaceted debate which can be argued with strength from either perspective but for myself I'm now happy to push the bees towards new comb.

Quite, its definitely a debate.
This idea of pathogen build up is horsecock unless you have efb.
Show me the evidence bees do better on new comb, I expect they actually do do better on new comb as opposed to very old manky comb or foundation, but without a ready supply of new comb the resources needed to produce it likely override any advantages imho. Every paper I've seen extolling the benefits of fresh comb conveniently gloss over the unsustainable aspect of pouring in gallons of feed.

[Jon]

Its not so easy to get acetic acid at 80% in your local chemist

ebay, Amazon or the beekeeper suppliers.
I picked up a gallon at Gormanston last summer.

[Jon]

This idea of pathogen build up is horsecock unless you have efb.

We had no detected cases of EFB here for over a decade then there were a couple in 2014 and a small number in 2015.
AFB seems to be the main problem in N Ireland.

[The Drone Ranger]

New comb produced at a good time for the bees while boosting your honey harvest ?
Snelgrove board gets the job done :)

[prakel]

Quite, its definitely a debate.
This idea of pathogen build up is horsecock unless you have efb.
Show me the evidence bees do better on new comb, I expect they actually do do better on new comb as opposed to very old manky comb or foundation, but without a ready supply of new comb the resources needed to produce it likely override any advantages imho. Every paper I've seen extolling the benefits of fresh comb conveniently gloss over the unsustainable aspect of pouring in gallons of feed.

Living in an area where efb is far from uncommon I learnt my lesson the hard way so yes, that itself is a valid reason not to sit on old comb. Although I'll concede that new comb doesn't offer a bulletproof vest, I don't think that it does any harm in such a location either.

As for showing you evidence that bees do better on new comb? I can't. What I can say is that on a year end basis, with a box suited to the idea, they certainly don't do any worse. Maybe location has a large part to play in that equation.

Whether it's sustainable to maintain healthy colonies on clean comb I don't know but I doubt that there's any true longterm benefit to old comb other than in the early stages of building a larger scale operation, when time and necessity drive.

There's been a lot of talk in this thread of bees reworking old comb. Why, if it's so good? What's the driver behind that behaviour?

[The Drone Ranger]

I was in Fife yesterday and just made it to Thornes before closing
100 sheets of wax at about £1 a sheet
If I had a block of old wax I would have been able to exchange that and save a bit

Last year I got a load of Thorne's white plastic ends and they will go on frames making them easy to track by year code
If I had National length lugs they would not get in the way so I would be even keener on them

[fatshark]

You could have made 10 x that number of foundationless frames with starter strips ... all you need are level hives and a bit of time in the winter to 'wire' them.

[mbc]

What's the driver behind that behaviour?[/QUOTE]

Interesting question. It's probably a physiological thing baught on by nest building, as alluded to earlier in the thread bees coming out of winter have a surge of reworking and cleaning behavior, as do newly hived swarms and rapidly expanding colonies, I expect all colonies are programed to embark on a bit of housekeeping when in expansion phase. New or old comb I doubt this changes much.

[busybeephilip]

We had no detected cases of EFB here for over a decade then there were a couple in 2014 and a small number in 2015.
AFB seems to be the main problem in N Ireland.

Have you heard any news about the AFB position in the South ? I have heard some say it's worse than in NI or is that just idle chatter

[Calluna4u]

There's been a lot of talk in this thread of bees reworking old comb. Why, if it's so good? What's the driver behind that behaviour?

I think the term I used was re-engineer. By which I mean they seem to have parameters they don't like to be breached, and I think cocoon linings of cells is one of them. If they think its getting too cluttered with them they give it a clean out. I think this only happens at first reuse of the comb in spring. I never see the behaviour in mid to late season.

Have seen it being done, and so if anyone wants to argue, fine.

As regards the bees using old comb first? Well that's a pretty well proven pattern. They like well used comb.

Someone else posted that they must prefer diseased, or potentially diseased, comb. I think too much is being read into the bees decision making processes. I cannot begin to imagine that they sense a comb to be diseased and just go for ones that seem most like an existing hive. Maybe its no more than a scent thing.

[Jon]

Have you heard any news about the AFB position in the South ? I have heard some say it's worse than in NI or is that just idle chatter

It could be true but noone really knows as they do not have a functional inspectorate in RoI.
They have had some high profile EFB cases as it was detected twice in the demonstration hives at Gormanston which were being used by those taking the FIBKA exams.
Megan Seymour, visiting bee inspector from England, detected those.

[prakel]

I can't see anyone arguing with the fact that bees carry out work on existing comb, that's easy enough to come across as is their undoubted preference for comb itself. Not sure if I've missed another comment from someone else but I made a reference to bees being 'happy' to use diseased comb but I did so in the context of colony survival, not a liking for diseased comb. As far as I can see, from a bees perspective there would be no logical benefit to ignore an existing asset in preference for working new foundation. It's just the same when they jump on foundation in preference to starters; the least work to get up and running will always be the priority.

[The Drone Ranger]

It might reflect the age of the bees involved and the relative quantity of bees in each age band
Bees love a bit of wax building just give them access to a lid or half empty super
Older bees are not up for the task so they might rather do a bit of renovation on the existing black combs
As usual I don't know just guessing

[prakel]

While I'm happy to leave this thread to others (I'll continue doing what I do) I thought that the following, although dated, may be of interest to the op. I include the reference to formalin, not as a recommendation, but because of the comment re the efficacy of acetic against EFB:


Antibiotic treatment can have no effect on the infective material behind the cocoon silk in the comb nor on any partially exposed infective larval faecal pellets that escape initial cleaning. The former can cause re-infection should the comb be torn down for re-building and the latter in the event of more thorough cleaning; in both cases, after the antibiotic treatmment is over.

The combs can be made safer, however, by fumigation with the fumes of formalin. The process is very similar to the Bailey treatment for combs from colonies infected with Nosema. The Bailey treatment involves the fumes of acetic acid but this is only slightly effective against EFB.

Beekeeping: The Technical Note Series, John Atkinson 1983

[Jon]

wonder what they mean by 'slightly effective'

[GRIZZLY]

wonder what they mean by 'slightly effective'

Opposit of "highly" perhaps ?

[fatshark]

The official word in the FERA "Hive cleaning and sterilisation" guide states:

Acetic acid fumes ... There is no evidence that this treatment is effective against AFB or EFB.

So, 'slightly' probably means 'barely'.

[Greengage]

Have you heard any news about the AFB position in the South ? I have heard some say it's worse than in NI or is that just idle chatter

I have made some inquiries about AFB in the south there are some cases but since the rule is everything must be burnt, those who have it are reluctant to say they have it and if you do report it a vet must confirm that you have destroyed your hives, but here is the thing. If you ring the vet and tell him/her you have destroyed your hives they will take your word for it as they do not get paid for visiting your apiary to confirm it was actually done. This is something that will bite beekeepers in the future. Hear no evil see no evil.

[Calluna4u]

Cl4U = You really ought to write a book & pass on your knowledge & experiences. (not jesting in any way here) Have you considered getting it all down on print to help new & not so new beekeepers? Appreciate that you've a lot on the go but it would be a shame not to get it all down on print

Oh heavens no! The last thing the world needs is yet another bee book! (Especially from a 'dark side' dweller). <G>

That is a book that will never be written. Unless Gavin (or someone else) wants to shadow me for a couple of years and do the job as a not so ghostly writer......

BUT....don't believe in keeping secrets, and will answer just about anything asked....even if the answer is that I don't have a Scooby doo about it.

Problem is, once you write it in a book that is what everyone considers your definitive opinion. I am very open to having my mind changed and will steal good ideas from anyone, hence my way of doing things in 2016 may not be the exact thing I will do in 2017......it evolves, and thus any book would eventually become obsolete. (As most bee books are.)

[Emma]

they seem to have parameters they don't like to be breached, and I think cocoon linings of cells is one of them. If they think its getting too cluttered with them they give it a clean out. I think this only happens at first reuse of the comb in spring. I never see the behaviour in mid to late season.

Checking my bees' trash last week (aka clearing the varroa boards), I found one of the strongest colonies had chucked out two quite shockingly thick little lines of dry, pale brown stuff. Some of it was definitely pupa cases - there were intact ends of cocoons, and big flakes of the same material - and from the overall colour & texture I think most of the rest of it was, as well. I've seen similar before, can't remember whether it's only been this at time of year - I'll try to notice from now on!
There's a whole lot of housework going on around the apiary just now, presumably preparing space for expanding broodnests.

[The Drone Ranger]

The official word in the FERA "Hive cleaning and sterilisation" guide states:

Acetic acid fumes ... There is no evidence that this treatment is effective against AFB or EFB.

So, 'slightly' probably means 'barely'.
Apparently the sterising effect is really only aimed at Nosema
As everybody probably knows the Nosema spore has a little harpoon on a coiled spring
When the atmosphere is acidic they can't resist the temptation to fire the harpoon
Course that then makes them harmless to the bee
Presuming that's right, would any acid environment produce the same effect ?
Oxalic vapour for instance


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[The Drone Ranger]

Checking my bees' trash last week (aka clearing the varroa boards), I found one of the strongest colonies had chucked out two quite shockingly thick little lines of dry, pale brown stuff. Some of it was definitely pupa cases - there were intact ends of cocoons, and big flakes of the same material - and from the overall colour & texture I think most of the rest of it was, as well. I've seen similar before, can't remember whether it's only been this at time of year - I'll try to notice from now on!
There's a whole lot of housework going on around the apiary just now, presumably preparing space for expanding broodnests.
Hi Emma
I wonder, if the brood combs had stores in them at the beginning of Winter , would that mean they definitely had to have a full clear out before being polished up for the queen laying in

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[Emma]

They'd have licked the cells clean of honey/syrup long before they'd got to those pupa cases - it was quite a clear out! The patches were right by the entrance, so I'm hoping they'd been clearing out both for brood and for their usual offload-it-by-the-entrance pollen stash. Pollen foraging here seemed to start in earnest a week or so ago. Crownboards had been warming up for a while, so I think they had some brood already, but maybe tucked a bit further back inside the cluster. That colony's on 5-6 seams, which is big for my apiary.

[The Drone Ranger]

Sounds like your season has begun then :)

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[busybeephilip]

They'd have licked the cells clean of honey/syrup long before they'd got to those pupa cases - it was quite a clear out! The patches were right by the entrance, so I'm hoping they'd been clearing out both for brood and for their usual offload-it-by-the-entrance pollen stash. Pollen foraging here seemed to start in earnest a week or so ago. Crownboards had been warming up for a while, so I think they had some brood already, but maybe tucked a bit further back inside the cluster. That colony's on 5-6 seams, which is big for my apiary.

cocoons -mouse damage debris - perhaps?

[Emma]

cocoons -mouse damage debris - perhaps?

Many thanks for the implied warning - but, no, nothing like mouse damage. The cocoons were wispy, translucent sheets, not mouse-bitten chunks. The debris was in the neat lines of normal bee activity. No hollowed-out husks of abdomens among the dead lying on the varroa board. And, no mouse shit.
Plus, pity the mouse that wanders in there at the moment - the girls are alert, busy, and (re)claiming their space! Season has indeed begun :-)

[Calluna4u]

Many thanks for the implied warning - but, no, nothing like mouse damage. The cocoons were wispy, translucent sheets, not mouse-bitten chunks. The debris was in the neat lines of normal bee activity. No hollowed-out husks of abdomens among the dead lying on the varroa board. And, no mouse shit.
Plus, pity the mouse that wanders in there at the moment - the girls are alert, busy, and (re)claiming their space! Season has indeed begun :-)

Have to confess my first thought was that you must have a mouse, or more likely a shrew, active in there.....working under the certainty you would have noticed if there was a mouse.

Your bees must be in a lovely spot. We would not expect to see this kind of activity....the good houseclean of the brood cells........for the best part of another month, if not more given the forecast this spring.

We would also not expect to see such large pieces. However, your described position of the stripes of debris is pretty consistent with what would be expected. Ours are almost entirely still in pretty solid clusters.

Murray

[Greengage]

During winter do bees not extend their cells for storage in the brood box which are larger than brood cells and when they uncap it you can see a lot of debris on the floor, now where did i hear that?

[Emma]

Have to confess my first thought was that you must have a mouse, or more likely a shrew, active in there.....working under the certainty you would have noticed if there was a mouse.

Your bees must be in a lovely spot. We would not expect to see this kind of activity....the good houseclean of the brood cells........for the best part of another month, if not more given the forecast this spring.

We would also not expect to see such large pieces. However, your described position of the stripes of debris is pretty consistent with what would be expected. Ours are almost entirely still in pretty solid clusters.

Murray

Hmm, I suppose calling the flakes "big" was a bit misleading. I've been looking at a lot of bee-trash details recently... I meant pieces that were big enough to recognise as pupa casing... millimetres long, one or two mil wide, and translucently thin. The biggest pieces were entire ends of cells, but again those were just thin translucent layers. It's all relative!
The apiary is in a walled garden. Really high walls, with trees rising even higher round most of the walls. The ground slopes strongly, so there isn't too much chance of a frost pocket. That particularly lively hive is about two feet from a massive south-facing stone wall. And there are tangly brambles and the like round and about providing yet more shelter. Spoilt, bees & me both - tho' I did uproot myself & move down to Fife for that apiary, and I lived in a hut for the first 4 months I was here. Now all I need is a cabin alongside, so I can watch the bees from my desk.
Come round for a look sometime, C4u, if you're ever this side of the Tay! A little world of micro beekeeping, so different from what you do...

[gavin]

Now all I need is a cabin alongside, so I can watch the bees from my desk.
Come round for a look sometime, C4u, if you're ever this side of the Tay! A little world of micro beekeeping, so different from what you do...

A cabin? Reminds me of a certain video. Anyway, you'd get cabin fever!

Great observations. So they sometimes tear out the walls, layer by layer?

The place has plenty of spring bulbs over the wall too. Worth the trip to see another facet of beekeeping. Murray gets as far as Abernethy sometimes and it isn't much further.

Great that you have one stock at least that is preparing to boom and give you lots of honey.

PS Careful not to scrape fatshark's front window with your Unimog, Murray, as you squeeze past on the way ;)

[Emma]

A cabin? Reminds me of a certain video. Anyway, you'd get cabin fever!

Great observations. So they sometimes tear out the walls, layer by layer?
...
Great that you have one stock at least that is preparing to boom and give you lots of honey.

How could I get cabin fever, with bees to look out at? Just wouldn't get any work done :)

Another week, and more layers stripped. Just quite small bits, this time, but still recognisably pieces of cell linings - along with an amazing quantity of other junk. I don't know how many layers of pupa cases it takes to make the pieces I'm seeing, of course. They might be tearing out the whole accumulation at once. I've rendered black old brood combs in the past, & the mass of cell-shaped bags floating in the wax were still fairly thin & translucent, as far as I remember.

They're definitely preparing to boom. Honey??? I'm sure they have other plans. And I have to travel to &/or organise no fewer than 4 pesky work events this swarming season, but who knows... maybe this year I'll finally steer them in the direction of more honey, & fewer queens!

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Emma
you could try either the Snelgrove or Horsley boards to stop them clearing off when your are not around
Then you don't mind them producing a queen because you can have that one helping get you honey

[Mellifera Crofter]

... Another week, and more layers stripped. ...

If you have your camera handy next week, and they're still stripping cells, can you take a picture?
Kitta

[Emma]

Hi Emma
you could try either the Snelgrove or Horsley boards to stop them clearing off when your are not around
Then you don't mind them producing a queen because you can have that one helping get you honey

I rarely lose a queen. Just end up raising at least one new queen per colony, on average, every year. Usually more, because the whole process is so fascinating & it always seems like a good idea at the time. And I don't need them, because I'm not confident about selling bees, and I don't want to kill the old queens. I like getting to know what each one is like, and I've heard different opinions on whether brand new queens perform best anyway. Plus, I'm aiming for as near Amm as I can get, and my Fife matings have been decidedly mixed.
I love the theory of Snelgrove boards but have found them tricky in practice.
(1) One issue I have with them is that they won't give as effective a brood break for varroa control as a separate-box A.S., because the old brood nest can't have an OMF.
(2) Another is that my queens take their sweet time over getting round to laying. 3 weeks is standard. 5 or 6 isn't unknown. (Don't quote me on 6, I'd need to check my notes.) While the upper box still has a virgin queen waiting to mate, I'm very reluctant to shift it to inspect the box below. Mostly because the virgin may return mid inspection & get lost, & also because a cloud of foragers always gathers where the upper entrance should be, all yelling "WTF???" in my general direction. They're not usually aggressive about it, but I don't like upsetting bees, especially when they're busy.
I seem to remember you're not an OMF fan, but what's your solution to (2)?

[Emma]

If you have your camera handy next week, and they're still stripping cells, can you take a picture?
Kitta
I did take some record shots, Kitta, but I'm not sure how useful they are.
And I've not tried posting images to the group yet! - so here goes.

This one is from 24 February, the first time I noticed that really heavy fall. I didn't have my close-up camera with me, so although it shows the area of dense fall, there aren't any details of the cell wall fragments.
(Sorry about the visible carnage, BTW. Sometimes a few bees find their way to the underside of the OMF, not to the entrance. :( Horrid. Varies from colony to colony. I haven't found a way of stopping it, yet.)
2598

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Emma
Mostly once the bees are split they will start queen cells
So the maximum wait for them to hatch is 15 days
Virgin queens will usually fly out to mate around 7 days later (give or take a few days)
So a little over 3 week's maybe 4 weeks should be job done weather permitting
A non beekeeper can do the doors for you if you are away


As to how long before they start laying, that's a more variable thing, sometimes very quick sometimes not but she won't get lost flying after she is mated

You can put a test frame in to check if you are worried about slow laying
Don't take my advice though stick with your own way its probably better :)



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[Emma]

...OK, that seemed to work :)

Next photo, overall view of the same board, 9 days later. Not quite such a heavy drop from the clearing out (but that isn't really a direct comparison, as 24Feb was the first time I'd cleared the boards since 9Feb, so there was 15 days' accumulation in the previous photo), more uncapping of stores towards the edges, a lot more pollen coming in. All consistent with a colony waking up and smelling the snowdrops:

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(File size is a bit huge: tell me if I need to edit, Gavin et al!)

Finally, I picked out the biggest pieces of pupa case I could find. Unfortunately they were quite a bit smaller than I found the week before, but big enough to be sure what they were, and to see the angles of the cells. I need to get better at photography, because it's much less clear in this image. The piece towards the top left shows a 3-angled junction, which means it was part of the cell base. (The two darker chunks furthest right showed the shape of cells but were thicker & waxy. I included them so I could have another look later, but they scarcely come out at all on the photo.)
The little pieces of pupa give scale... but actually I included them out of sheer curiosity. 3 pale pieces of leg. 1 white section of antenna. Why??? I quite often see a few pieces during the summer, but it seems very profligate to throw out a pupa at this time of year.
Bees. Always a mystery:

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[Emma]

Hi DR,
It isn't that I'm worried about whether the new queen is laying, it's just that I'm trying to leave her alone for at least 3 weeks, but in the meantime I could do with checking what's going on in the box below her. Dilemma! What do you do? Just not bother checking the old queen for 3 weeks? Or do the inspection outwith the likely times of day for queen mating? Or... (I can't think what else...?!)

[fatshark]

Just give the queen down below loads of space .... she'll have a whole box to lay up if you've separated the colony correctly. She shouldn't need inspecting. When I do vertical splits like this I usually add an extra super or two to the side of the split that will form the 'foraging' unit.

Caveat ... I've yet to explore the delights of the Snelgrove board, DR is the expert

[Feckless Drone]

(1) One issue I have with them is that they won't give as effective a brood break for varroa control as a separate-box A.S., because the old brood nest can't have an OMF.
(2) While the upper box still has a virgin queen waiting to mate, I'm very reluctant to shift it to inspect the box below.

You don't have to put the old Q downstairs, just that's how it has been commonly done. She can go up top and certainly in the absence of a super the flying bees will find the entrance easily (that is my experience). Just have to remember to change the direction of the entrance below. Then you can inspect the top OK, and leave the bottom for the month or so to let that new Q and her colony get sorted.

[Mellifera Crofter]

I did take some record shots, Kitta, but I'm not sure how useful they are. ... it shows the area of dense fall, there aren't any details of the cell wall fragments.
(Sorry about the visible carnage, BTW. Sometimes a few bees find their way to the underside of the OMF, not to the entrance. :( Horrid. Varies from colony to colony. I haven't found a way of stopping it, yet.)


Thanks for the photos, Emma. You're right: quite a lot of cell debris in the first one. No.2 is interesting with the two colours of debris: the outer white ones, and inner ones from the brood area; and the third one with the large flakes. I don't think any of mine had been that busy yet. I also find the odd bee underneath the hive on top of the board!
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

I'm not convinced OMF do much good for varroa
The natural drop can be tiny and yet if you treat them thousands drop
So the few that fall through an OMF are insignificant

[Mellifera Crofter]

Most floors come with mesh floors, DR - particularly the poly ones. I just keep the inserts in most of the time to protect the bees from wind - except, perhaps, hives that are low on the ground. Perhaps Emma is doing the same(?).

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

I have mesh ones above solid and a sealed space with tray
But I wouldn't expect them to be doing much good with removing varroa
Surprised that they are not optional on Poly but they might be need because of increased heat and condensation etc

[Emma]

Just give the queen down below loads of space .... she'll have a whole box to lay up if you've separated the colony correctly. She shouldn't need inspecting....
"Shouldn't"... will you tell her, or shall I?! Remind me to tell you the saga of last year's swarming season, someday :)
You're right about space, though, and I've not managed that well in the past. Space with drawn comb in it, in particular.

[Emma]

You don't have to put the old Q downstairs, just that's how it has been commonly done. She can go up top and certainly in the absence of a super the flying bees will find the entrance easily (that is my experience). Just have to remember to change the direction of the entrance below. Then you can inspect the top OK, and leave the bottom for the month or so to let that new Q and her colony get sorted.
Mmmm, nice! No crud from cleared-out old comb falling into the new nest, either. I want to try that. Can I still do Snelgrove bee-bleeding if it's that way up?

[Emma]

Most floors come with mesh floors, DR - particularly the poly ones. I just keep the inserts in most of the time to protect the bees from wind - except, perhaps, hives that are low on the ground. Perhaps Emma is doing the same(?).

Kitta

I keep my inserts in all the time, yes. Partly because they tell me so much that running a hive without them is like driving blind. Also, because I think it makes sense to keep the hive the same all year round, as far as possible, so the bees can get used to the space they're managing, & especially the heating/ventilation needs. My first apiary was a big influence, too - an Aberdeenshire field, quite exposed & very windy! I'd forgotten about that.
I utterly rely on OMFs for ventilation. It'd be nice to think that the 10% varroa reduction that gets quoted is true, but I don't know of course. The natural fall usually increases massively during a brood break, so that seems a particularly critical time to have the bees on OMF.

[fatshark]

Can I still do Snelgrove bee-bleeding if it's that way up?

Yes ... just reverse all the directions in Snelgroves book ... left = right, top = bottom. What could possibly go wrong? And if you're worrying about the rubbish that falls through I can probably find you a small patch of Varroa impermeable wire to replace the stuff on the board.

[The Drone Ranger]

I'm a bit of a stick in the mud FD :)
I have absorbed the information though
I'll have a think about it

There might be a significant varroa fall with OMF at times Emma
Mostly though you will hear folk saying that there was next to no natural drop then an avalanche after treatment
That could partly be because most hive inserts are just a bit of correx flapping around in the breeze

The figures for natural drop would probably be right in a situation where the insert was in a sealed insect proof underfloor
Anyway if you looked at the recommended drop figures up on beebase and what the predicted population at that level was
It might show whether OMF could be removing a reasonable percentage

I'm way off topic now because I don't know anything about cell cleaning or EFB :)

[Emma]

Yes ... just reverse all the directions in Snelgroves book ... left = right, top = bottom. What could possibly go wrong? And if you're worrying about the rubbish that falls through I can probably find you a small patch of Varroa impermeable wire to replace the stuff on the board.
Yes please!
I think I'd better re-read my Snelgrove. Then I will stand on my head. Or possibly turn myself inside out.

[Emma]

There might be a significant varroa fall with OMF at times Emma
Mostly though you will hear folk saying that there was next to no natural drop then an avalanche after treatment
That could partly be because most hive inserts are just a bit of correx flapping around in the breeze

The figures for natural drop would probably be right in a situation where the insert was in a sealed insect proof underfloor
Anyway if you looked at the recommended drop figures up on beebase and what the predicted population at that level was
It might show whether OMF could be removing a reasonable percentage

I'm way off topic now because I don't know anything about cell cleaning or EFB :)

Would you like to see 5 years' worth of obsessive continuous OMF monitoring figures? Happy to share ;-) I haven't learned to predict post-treatment drop from natural mitefall, but I usually have an idea of which ones need treated, and which have the biggest mite populations. I watch the natural drop go down as brood area expands, and up as brood area contracts, and wonder why on Earth people think that one random 7-day period per 6 months is going to tell them what's going on.

I've always wondered what might be eating fallen mites. If anything is, it eats them whole, or carries them off. I've never seen half a mite... tho' come to think of it there may sometimes be empty shells. Aaaargh... yet another detail to look for....!

[The Drone Ranger]

The bee unit advise sticky inserts or Vaseline
As soon as there is a little gap where there is access to the tray scavengers go in
In summer that includes bees wasps beetles you name it
Even in cold weather there are scavenging insects so unless the tray is closed in you won't see the full picture
Scavengers might not go in for dead mites its more likely wax fragments bits of bee etc
Mostly though they take what the can get and clear off :)
You should post a graph of your drop results Emma that would be good

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[Emma]

I've been amazed how little disturbance there generally is by scavengers. Slugs mess up the patterns. So do mice, of course. Mouse-chewed bees are really easy to spot. And wasps, too. But I can usually keep mice off, and mostly keep wasps off, with wire mesh along the rear gap. Slugs: well, my hives really ought to be dry enough to keep them away; I'm working on it. Not sure what the little, looong insects feed on. Would love to know what they are: they're tough, they reappear early in the year.
Haven't done a graph yet. Enjoyed yours the other week: graphs are good :-) But I've got too much detailed data, & not enough time to process it. I'd understand more if I had more time to read back through my notes: my ambition is to get down to 4 colonies, so I have more time for each one.
Here's a thing you may not have come across about OMFs and varroa inserts: people quote a study by Jeff Pettis from 1999. If there aren't 2 inches between the mesh and the insert, then the varroa can climb back up onto the bees. If it's only half an inch, every live mite that drops can get back up, so the OMF won't be any use for reducing varroa population.
None of the hive makers/sellers seem to have come across this research. I modify all my floors, to make the drop longer.
I've found two quotes of it - this one's nicely written: http://chrissladesbeeblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/varroa-floor-the-long-drop/
And I'm pretty sure the original paper is this one: Pettis, J. S. and Shimanuki, H. A hive modification to reduce Varroa populations. American Bee J. 139: 471-473. 1999.
There's an abstract online, but it doesn't mention the details of how the floor is constructed: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=99053
Frustrating!!

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Emma
I'm sure you are right I will study the linked articles :)

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[nemphlar]

I,m a little reluctant to offer opinions on snelgrove use after only 1 year but DR's experiences go some way to confirming my first year results and that is you would need to be very unlucky to loose a swarm in 3 or4 weeks after an early split with super for old queen in the bottom box, ie early May. I had mentioned to DR about the 3 to 6 week brood break and it's possible affect on varroa, and without making big issue of it a fine mesh on the board does appear effectively create this break and reduce their expansion at this important time.
As the brood will be hatching at different rates its seems to me that it's more important to be aware of the numbers in the top box for maintaining heat and health and changing doors to suite rather than trying stick rigidly to the book, I would stick to having the VQ on top
All my floors are mesh with boards attached to bottom of the hive stool about 75mm below the floor, didn't seem to cause any issues last year. Though not convinced they are a significant tool against varroa, mainly cleared up the damp problem

[Emma]

Those are good points about warmth, and monitoring bee numbers above. But it sounds as if some of my bees have been slower to come into lay, and keener to swarm, than yours.
Do you check bee numbers by raising the crownboard for a look, or do you have transparent crown boards? The year I had most queen-mating failures was also the year when I looked inside nests when there were virgins waiting to mate, so I'm reluctant to do that again.

[nemphlar]

Haha you may have a good point about peaking in too often, I had plenty of mated queens and bees and I had some success locally with the top box VQ mating, but not much with the ones in the valley where I blamed the swifts and swallows which seemed thicker than normal.
I had lots of spare cells to drop into mating nucs, which to be honest still didn't return more than 30%, I have 7 transparent boards I could try this year, although I'm not sure checking once a week should have put the VQ off. It goes without saying that I would only check early morning or late afternoon

[The Drone Ranger]

You can look in a day or so after the board goes on to check for starts
And again say 5 days later when the cells are sealed
After that you might wait another 20 days till hatch, mate, and lay before having a peek for eggs
I'm no expert on anything, so fire away, a new take on using boards helps everyone me included

[nemphlar]

DR I understand that the advice is to leave the top box to sort themselves out, but my experience is if I leave a couple of cells in brood box they are quite likely to send out little casts with each VQ so I generally remove all but one.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi nemphlar I usually just let the bees reduce the cells but I will keep a close eye this year

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[Emma]

Thanks Emma
I'm sure you are right I will study the linked articles :)

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American Bee Journal sent me the full text of Pettis & Shimanuki 1999.
It does mention the 2" drop idea: "Other studies (Pettis unpublished data) have shown that separating bees and fallen mites by half an inch resulted in 75% reduction in mite re-entry, while two inches of separation resulted in no mites re-entering the colony"... interestingly different from what I found quoted on t'internet!
The main message of the study is that having a mesh floor slowed the expansion of mite population in the tested hives, but wasn't sufficient to control mite population on its own. Which matches what I remember being told whenever it was that I was first learning about OMFs.

[nemphlar]

Good to hear it's making a difference Emma, the 3" drop in my set up is more about the structure of the stool than good information. Better to be lucky than good.