Mouldy hives

[Mellifera Crofter]

We received an email from our chairman warning us about mouldy hives as a result of our long, wet winter. We have a very good and considerate chairman, but I'm not sure about his advice this time. He suggested replacing the affected crown board and roof (that's fine) and increase ventilation through the hive by checking that vents in the roof and crown board aren't covered or clogged up with propolis. He also suggested adding extra ventilation by lifting the crown board with match sticks. With an open mesh floor air will then flow up through the hive keeping things dry in the process.

I think he was mainly referring to wooden hives, but even in my polys I occasionally see some mould in the corners of inner plywood crown boards (meaning they fit inside the hive) and I'm sure I'll see mould on some of the outside frames of some hives when I open them in the spring - but usually the insides of the hives are nice and dry. I don't have top ventilation, and I don't remove the inspection trays (but there are openings in some trays and they're fairly loose-fitting).

I don't want to reply to his email and squeal, 'You'll create a draught through the hive' (so I'm doing it here!) - but also because I realised that I don't have an alternative suggestion to remedy mouldy hives if, at the same time, I want to avoid a draught. I might suggest increasing the insulation above the crown board - will that help? Are there still people here using top ventilation?

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Kitta you can just leave an empty rapid feeder over the hole left by a porter bee escape in the crown board
What happens is the moisture rises into the cone of the rapid feeder then condenses and ends up in the feeder not back in the hive
That's the plan anyway :)

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[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks DR. That sounds like a good plan, and one I haven't thought of before.
Kitta

[madasafish]

. I might suggest increasing the insulation above the crown board - will that help? Are there still people here using top ventilation?

Kitta

I have placed poly cosies on top of all my wooden hive .. and an extra cover on my MB poly hive.to insulate roof and roof junction.. to prevent condensation. Works so far in a VERY wet winter..


2572

[greengumbo]

I got that email too Kitta and was a bit alarmed at the matchstick advice as I think its outdated.

[madasafish]

I got that email too Kitta and was a bit alarmed at the matchstick advice as I think its outdated.

"outdated" is not the word I would use.. but my choice is very rude...

[gavin]

Sounds more than a bit 'BBKA'. I've never heard of a Scottish beekeeper advocating that until now.

It will increase their use of stores, increase the risk of isolation and plain starvation and set back spring development. Insulate the tops, try to winter relatively strong colonies, dummy them down or shift to a nuc box if small.

[Mellifera Crofter]

Thank you, everybody. That's a help. Perhaps Greengumbo or I can have a wee chat with our chairman when we next see him.

That's a nice apiary, Madasafish. I agree about deep roofs, but I haven't yet made any. In my head I make all kinds of plans for an ideal poly hive!

[The Drone Ranger]

Its an interesting subject though because the matchstick advice comes with a long history in print
Being a Luddite I still haven't accepted OMF are a good thing
I was chatting to a friend a couple of weeks back and a new Beek they had been helping had lost one colony out of two and the hive was very wet
In that case the crown board was a bit undersized on a S/H older hive they had picked up somewhere

Condensation relies on a temperature difference so rising warm air hits cold crown board etc
Water has a nasty habit of wicking its way along edges and getting in
It's easier to spot that happening in a chicken house because the bedding will be wet in one place (usually)
Its surprising sometimes though how a bit of a tilt and a slight gap or crack causes so much aggravation

[alancooper]

.....Sounds more than a bit 'BBKA'. It will increase their use of stores, increase the risk of isolation and plain starvation and set back spring development. Insulate the tops.....

I have put 1" insulation board into the roofs of my wooden National hives, cover the crown board escapes/feed holes and I have mesh floors. Largely I do not get condensation and am satisfied with this set-up - but this thread has reminded me that when I initially put in the mesh floors I was concerned about too much ventilation. In the very windy west of Ireland am I setting back spring development?

[The Drone Ranger]

You never know alan
The hives might periodically relocate to new sites with better forage (dependent on wind direction )
:)

[madasafish]

Thank you, everybody. That's a help. Perhaps Greengumbo or I can have a wee chat with our chairman when we next see him.

That's a nice apiary, Madasafish. I agree about deep roofs, but I haven't yet made any. In my head I make all kinds of plans for an ideal poly hive!

Thanks MC: it's our back garden.. Fields/woods and National Trust gardens behind, plus a cemetery full of bodgers - sorry badgers - (live ones)..

I close all my OMFs in winter, run with supers under the brood boxes and with hive cosies get no condensation..100mm of roof insulation minimum PLUS. 50mm walls immediatley below rood. The roof/crownboard joint MUST be a huge source of last energy.. rather like the sash windows in our house...

(but then I trained as a physicist..)

[RDMW]

I made some insulated candy boards with three inches of polystyrene this year
http://www.honeybeesonline.com/honey-bee-candy-board/
Does anyone have any experience of these?
Thanks


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[busybeephilip]

interesting - just looked at the video, they seem to use a hard candy/fondant, what way did you make your boards and candy?

I usually just put fondant on in the spring in a snall container on top of the feed hole, your way or the winter-bee-kind way means that bees away from the feed hole will have easy access to the food

[Emma]

Re: Matchsticks under crownboards... it was standard advice in Aberdeen/shire when I started in 2011. I watched the bees, who lovingly propolised everything above their heads in the autumn, but left the OMFs completely clear of the sticky stuff. I read around a bit. And I decided to take a punt on sealed crownboard, OMF, and a super full of woollen blanket strips on top. (Has to be wool! - stays warm even if wet.)

I've had a clear crownboard on at least one colony every winter, and I've watched out for condensation beneath the blankets. I've found touches of condensation sometimes right at the corners, especially with a smaller colony. If there's a dummy board, there can be plenty of condensation above the empty space beyond it. On a cold day, a mist of condensation starts forming as soon as I take the blankets back for a peek. I try to keep the blankets tucked down closely onto the whole surface of each board. Overall, with the help of those blankets, it's been amazing how even a small colony keeps most of the crownboard above their combs clear and dry.

During the wet winter of 2012-13 I did have mould problems, especially on one wooden crownboard. Since then I've gradually become aware of old woodwork letting in water, badly-fitting crownboards letting in draughts, one 2014 shop-made box leaking at the joins (grrrrrrr!!!)... Ultra-deep roofs are now no.1 on my equipment wishlist, & I'm experimenting with making some. Onwards & upwards. Thanks everyone for all those Correx tips!

So far (I hate saying it at this time of year) I've not yet lost a colony over winter, so my method and/or my bees are doing pretty well. Matchsticks: just barbaric.

[The Drone Ranger]

we can put all the redundant matches to good use
2575
Wonder is I could make a hive from them ?

[AJS Bees]

I have Lyson, Abelo and a Payne's Hives all have open mesh floors and are open all year round out of 38 hives only one did not come through the Winter and that was due to being too small a cluster going into Winter. Bottom ventilation is a good thing less moisture and a larger warm air mass in the hive. I have to say I did initially take a lot of convincing but it does work and on single Nucs too.

[lindsay s]

Hello AJS, I hope you like using this forum although it can be rather quiet at times. Would you mind sharing your location because most areas are far more favourable for beekeeping than where I’m located.
Although it will be at least three to four weeks before my first inspection of the year it is the one I dread the most for two reasons.
1 The state of the bees and are they going to make it.
2 The state of the bars and the inside of the hives.
I over winter my Smith hives on a solid floor with mesh over the holes in the crownboard and an empty super between the roof. Every year a few of my hives will be damp and most will have mouldy outside bars (I work my poorest bar’s to the edge anyway for replacing in the Spring). I have tried open mesh floors in the past but found they made little difference. Last Autumn I sealed round the join between the crownboards and the brood chambers with Gorilla tape to reduce the water ingress and I hope it has been a success and it hasn’t made things worse! I have my reasons for an empty super above the crownboards and the bees don’t seal up the mesh, Winter’s are long and damp here.
I’ve over wintered poly nucs for the past few years and have found virtually no mould on the combs so they seem to be the way forward but I’m not wanting to switch over to poly hives because I have invested too much in my Smith’s.

[Adam]

I've found a similar thing - and I have a few 5 frame wooden nucs with only a small ventillation hole in the bottom and they tend to get mouldy at the back of the hive. (Top is insulated in these).
With Abelo on it's third version of poly hive and with Paynes too soft and bulky (I sold mine) and the design errors in the Paradise hives, I have largely stuck to wood with insulation on top.

[lindsay s]

Here’s a sample of some of the end frames that came out of my damp hives this week. I’ve had more than usual this Spring. They weren’t like that in the Autumn but I move my poorer frames to the outside of the brood chambers just in case this happens. The frames with brood are fine. Some of the hives were dry and there was no mould in my poly nucs. I could clean up the frames and sterilise them but being short of time they’ll probably end up on a bonfire. The other things that my damp hives attracted were the odd slug and hundreds of slaters especially behind the frame runners.

3014

[fatshark]

Hi Lindsay ... I saw one or two like this this spring as well. I think there was also a higher 'slug index' in the hives when I first inspected. I have colonies in Fife and Ardnamurchan. All survived the winter, though I lost 10% due to failed queens. These boxes were well-populated but one queen was a drone layer and the other was just not laying at all.

Fife has been bl%%dy cold. I just checked ... 17 nights of frost in April (the 10 year average is ~3-4) and an average temperature of 5.9°C compared to the average of about 9.5°C (data thanks to the excellent Muchty weather (https://muchty-weather.org.uk/weather/Bootstrap/index.html) website which is based on a personal weather station down the road from one of my apiaries). The good colonies are doing well despite this, with some being almost full of brood, first supers on and filling with fresh nectar (almost certainly OSR). The strongest were starting to make queen cells and I've (ambitiously) started queen rearing and will be back there this w/e for grafting. However, most weren't this well advanced and I'd predict aren't going to be strong enough to properly exploit the main OSR flow which will be starting in the next week or so.

Ardnamurchan has also been cool with bees only flying well in the middle of the day. Pollen (gorse) has been going in well for a month but they've needed the stores boosted and will probably need syrup today when I check them again. The winter was long and wet (no surprises there) and I didn't see a bee until the end of February. Queen rearing here won't be starting any time soon.

I've just realised this should really have gone in the 'daily' thread ... so back to the mould for a closing thought. I only see it on the outermost frame and usually in cedar boxes where the bees tend to avoid these frames due to the cold. In poly I regularly see the cluster up against the sidewall, even in midwinter.

Cheers
David

[lindsay s]

Thanks for the reply David
You got it spot on, the mouldy frames were at the edges of some of my damp cedar hives. My poly Everynucs as you’ll know have rebates which stops the water ingress and my bees do well in them. This brings me on to this hive https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/national-hive/12-frame-premium-national-poly-hive/12-frame-premium-national-poly-hive/
When I first saw it I thought all my Christmas’s had come at once because I’m used with top beespace and I like the rebates. I’m hoping the central hole in the crown board will take their round bee escape, if not I’ll bodge something with a wooden board. I’m going to use my Smith frames in them and I’ll probably glue a strip of wood along the frame runners to close up the gap of the shorter top bars. It looks like the frames run the warm way and if the floor doesn’t rotate the brood box to the cold way I’m still willing to give it ago. I intended to stick with my short lugged frames because it’s the dominant frame here and I make up nucs and swap frames with other beekeepers. I’m going to get two to try out for few years and I’ll get some spare kit so I don’t need to interchange with my Smith hives. Do you have any opinions before I take the plunge. I’m not too worried about the cost because beekeeping is a hobby for me that’s getting increasingly out of control!

[fatshark]

I've got a lot of Abelo hives, though an earlier incarnation than those new ones. Assuming the poly and finish/fittings are similar I think they are pretty good hives. I don't like the floors, but they're usable. The Varroa tray doesn't fit well and OA vapour escapes all over the place. The poly is dense and a bit brittle. I dropped a super with frames recently and it broken into 3. I've glued it together with Gorilla glue and some BBQ skewers for strength and it'll be fine. The upper/lower edges of the boxes are hard plastic and that saves hive tool damage. The paint finish is hardwearing, though I've got several roofs with a lot of pitting on for some reason - blue tits? Wasps? Dunno.

Two comments about these new boxes, which have stopped me buying them. They're 12 frame boxes, which is probably too big for my bees. If I need a bigger box I'd prefer to have a double brood. Mostly mine are in a single box and 11 is ample, and 10 is often OK (Swienty poly boxes). It's easier to brag about 'all frames filled with brood' if the boxes are smaller ;) The second thing - and a dealbreaker as far as I'm concerned - is the rebate at the interface between the boxes. This makes them incompatible with anything else I've got and that drives me nuts! I've got a few Paradise Honey boxes that are fine hives (except for the dreaded overhanging 'lip'), but incompatible with the cedar/Swienty/Abelo boxes that comprise 95% of my kit. I only use the Paradise boxes as bait hives now.

The Abelo crownboard looks much improved. The original had 5 holes and was not great.

[lindsay s]

Since my last last post I’ve bitten the bullet and ordered two Abelo 12 frame poly hives. I used to work about six 14 x12 Smiths at one time but I found with all that brood to look after the bees hardly ever filled the first super even in a good year. I gave up after about 7-8 years because they weren’t suitable for up here. I will easily dummy down the 12 frame polys. By the way my mentor did run a 15 frame glen hive at one time but I can’t remember if he got much honey.
As long as I can change my short lugged frames between the polys and my Smiths I will be happy. I’ve ordered enough poly spare kit for them to be stand alone. I’m not planning an expansion of numbers I’m just hoping they will keep my bees warm and dry. The main problem that needs solving here at the moment is why is the weather so poor when our our bees are building up their brood nests!:(