How many hives will I need ?

[gwizzie]

Hi everyone as the title suggests how many hives will I need to to say cover an orchard that has say 300 apple trees on it ? This will aid me in knowing roughly how many hives I will need to have to cover a few orchard's that I hope to cover this year..

Thanks again for your replys

[Calluna4u]

Hi everyone as the title suggests how many hives will I need to to say cover an orchard that has say 300 apple trees on it ? This will aid me in knowing roughly how many hives I will need to have to cover a few orchard's that I hope to cover this year..

Thanks again for your replys

Very much depends on the size of the apple trees. Are they big old mature trees or are they the more modern small dwarf trained trees for table apples? How many acres does the orchard cover? Are they all one kind with pollinators or are they successional flowering varieties?

[prakel]

This will aid me in knowing roughly how many hives I will need to have to cover a few orchard's that I hope to cover this year.

More than at present, would be my immediate assumption. That's fine in itself but would raise alarm bells in my mind. Not for any fear about buying in extra stock (although that can be a major issue early in the season if they're on comb) but rather the thought of tying up capital on new bees at the very start of the year.

I assume that you'll be committed to the extra necessary equipment for your expansion irrespective of when it needs to be pressed into use so that's not such an important issue.

Having struggled against a serious lack of cash for years trying to get to a sustainable commercial level and having now come to the decision to call it a day and use all that time I'll be saving to do something different I'm probably not the best person to offer advice but I would think very carefully before committing to any pollination work. Make sure that you're getting at least the equivalent benefit (to your business) out of it as the the growers are.

[mbc]

More than at present, would be my immediate assumption. That's fine in itself but would raise alarm bells in my mind. Not for any fear about buying in extra stock (although that can be a major issue early in the season if they're on comb) but rather the thought of tying up capital on new bees at the very start of the year.

I assume that you'll be committed to the extra necessary equipment for your expansion irrespective of when it needs to be pressed into use so that's not such an important issue.

Having struggled against a serious lack of cash for years trying to get to a sustainable commercial level and having now come to the decision to call it a day and use all that time I'll be saving to do something different I'm probably not the best person to offer advice but I would think very carefully before committing to any pollination work. Make sure that you're getting at least the equivalent benefit (to your business) out of it as the the growers are.

Sorry to hear this prakel, I'm still on the skint expansion curve and I feel your pain, good luck with the something different.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi mbc
I'm a pretty inefficient beekeeper I lose my hive tool for 10 mins,(sometimes permanently) have to go back to the shed for things I forgot
I have to battle though tall weeds to get to the hives, I make frames up but never enough need I go on :)
The most hives I have had was 35 one year (10 years ago)that was a backbreaking slog so I never let it get above 25 and often think that's too many as I sweat an swear my way through Summer.
Carrying full supers doesn't happen often enough but when it does 50m ends up at a chiropractor

But how many could a person (real beekeeper) like yourself manage on their own and do you have any tips for the likes of me
Bearing in mind I am unfit and approaching state pension age :)

[mbc]

But how many could a person (real beekeeper) like yourself manage on their own and do you have any tips for the likes of me
Bearing in mind I am unfit and approaching state pension age :)

Lol DR, a lot of that sounds familiar.
Once you get to a certain level some of the back breaking work gets eased by devices, hive barrows and sack trucks and the like, the real strain on the back is hours spent going through hives. Also, working lots of hives tends to make you fitter, I reckon to reach my fighting weight each summer sometime after the solstice after weeks of dawn till dusk work, probably losing a stone and a half of winter podge each season.
I put somewhere north of 200 into the winter and was fairly happy with this level before Gavin tipped me off to some cheap boxes( thanks Gavin :)). I have a friend up the road who manages up to 400 colonies mostly on his own, he does get some help in the summer, but I don't think I posses his energy levels.
For mere mortals I would think around 250 would be manageable on your own, giving a potential of several tonnes of honey a season and a modest living.
My only tips would be not to go down the loads of hives route unless you have a masochistic bent and a perpetual heightened state of bee fever through the season, otherwise I doubt if the sacrifices are worth it. Just my humble opinion.

[gavin]

Having struggled against a serious lack of cash for years trying to get to a sustainable commercial level and having now come to the decision to call it a day and use all that time I'll be saving to do something different I'm probably not the best person to offer advice but I would think very carefully before committing to any pollination work. Make sure that you're getting at least the equivalent benefit (to your business) out of it as the the growers are.

Really sorry to hear that. Clearly you think deeply about your beekeeping choices and it is sad that you are backing out. Best of luck with the alternative way of spending your time and making income.

Apple pollination. Chapter 17 in Delaplane and Mayer, Crop Pollination by Bees.

In smaller orchards, colonies should be placed in groups of 4-6 at 150 yard intervals. With larger orchards, colonies should be placed in groups of 8-16 at 200-300 yard intervals, starting about 100 yards from the edges.

and

Colonies should not be kept at the apple orchards year-round. Instead, they should be moved in after about 5% of the orchard is on bloom or when the first blooms open. Such a delay will encourage the bees to focus on the crop rather than learn to visit competing plants.

PS Just to echo Prakel's comments, commercial orchards pay for this service. The BFA could advise on rates if you join them. It is only to your benefit if the site gives you a high quality season-long site with decent forage in the surrounding area. The orchard I use is great for bees, a very long season of bloom with cherry plum, plums and gages, several apple varieties and lots of old pear tress. Plus clover in the grass, carpets of snowdrops and aconites (won't be long now!), sycamore and lime trees, bramble plus OSR over the wall and ivy on it.

[gwizzie]

Really sorry to hear that. Clearly you think deeply about your beekeeping choices and it is sad that you are backing out. Best of luck with the alternative way of spending your time and making income.

Apple pollination. Chapter 17 in Delaplane and Mayer, Crop Pollination by Bees.

In smaller orchards, colonies should be placed in groups of 4-6 at 150 yard intervals. With larger orchards, colonies should be placed in groups of 8-16 at 200-300 yard intervals, starting about 100 yards from the edges.

and

Colonies should not be kept at the apple orchards year-round. Instead, they should be moved in after about 5% of the orchard is on bloom or when the first blooms open. Such a delay will encourage the bees to focus on the crop rather than learn to visit competing plants.

PS Just to echo Prakel's comments, commercial orchards pay for this service. The BFA could advise on rates if you join them. It is only to your benefit if the site gives you a high quality season-long site with decent forage in the surrounding area. The orchard I use is great for bees, a very long season of bloom with cherry plum, plums and gages, several apple varieties and lots of old pear tress. Plus clover in the grass, carpets of snowdrops and aconites (won't be long now!), sycamore and lime trees, bramble plus OSR over the wall and ivy on it.

Thanks for the info Gavin, tried to send you a PM BUT your inbox in FULL :p

[The Drone Ranger]

Lol DR, a lot of that sounds familiar.

For mere mortals I would think around 250 would be manageable on your own, giving a potential of several tonnes of honey a season and a modest living.
My only tips would be not to go down the loads of hives route unless you have a masochistic bent and a perpetual heightened state of bee fever through the season, otherwise I doubt if the sacrifices are worth it. Just my humble opinion.

When you are spread out over a lot of sites mbc it must be a concern that your hives might be pinched
Is that a recent phenomenon or has it always been a problem ?

[mbc]

When you are spread out over a lot of sites mbc it must be a concern that your hives might be pinched
Is that a recent phenomenon or has it always been a problem ?

Touch wood, it's never been a problem for me. I've had a few hives pushed over, idiots with shotguns peppering hives, kids nicking some honey from the top sup er and scarpering without putting the roofs back on, and one incident of attempted arson on a beehive, but none pinched so far. I try and maintain relationships with people living and working round my sites and I believe this helps with security, but no doubt an organised attempt would succeed in nabbing some, I can't really dwell on it too much or I wouldn't get much sleep at night.
God help them if anyone was caught in the act.
And I don't think it's ever been a problem round here, recently or in the past, this low crime is a feature of areas which maintain a sense of community, very little theft and a common responsibility to keep it so.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi mbc
I just watched "Queens I Have Known" on you tube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYAfM1ZI8I8
Welsh queens get a good endorsement
Well worth a watch especially some of the queen rearing bits
I think you are right about areas with more community spirit


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[mbc]

Thanks for that DR
By his own account Atkinson failed to improve those Welsh queens as he started from too narrow a base with too few sex alleles, shame really as his ideas showed promise, though from his book "background to bee breeding" a lot of the beekeeping sounds overly complicated.

[Calum]

Hi everyone as the title suggests how many hives will I need to to say cover an orchard that has say 300 apple trees on it ? This will aid me in knowing roughly how many hives I will need to have to cover a few orchard's that I hope to cover this year..

Thanks again for your replys
Hi
it depends a bit on what else is available and the weather, but I think 4-5 should do the job.
http://www.bio-biene.com/3.html recommends 3-4 per Ha for apples.
(their source Quelle Wissenschaft DBJ 2011)
Nice list of whats needed per ha for different crops.
Of course colony strenghts and weather are probably big variables for the results - I assume these are based on carnica colonies.

[prakel]

"Queens I Have Known" on you tube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYAfM1ZI8I8

Excellent link DR, a very enjoyable talk with some great practical tips unobstrusively dotted throughout.

[Calluna4u]

Bearing in mind Gwizzle's location I suspect these are not likely to be serious modern commercial orchards. Perhaps I am wrong, but most of what is left in Scotland are old relics of times gone by, heritage trees. Perhaps they are now being harvested again for the relatively new Scottish cider brands like Thistly Cross who I believe will come and collect your apples if here are enough. Whatever, I suspect it unlikely to be a place where there is commercial pollination going on or a contract available. Probably a damn good bee site though.

Back to my original response, we do not have enough information to make informed advice about how many colonies.

[Calum]

Bearing in mind Gwizzle's location I suspect these are not likely to be serious modern commercial orchards. Perhaps I am wrong, but most of what is left in Scotland are old relics of times gone by, heritage trees. Perhaps they are now being harvested again for the relatively new Scottish cider brands like Thistly Cross who I believe will come and collect your apples if here are enough. Whatever, I suspect it unlikely to be a place where there is commercial pollination going on or a contract available. Probably a damn good bee site though.

Back to my original response, we do not have enough information to make informed advice about how many colonies.

I'll chance my arm.
i'd put down 4 strong colonies per Ha. (see my previous quote & link) of planted trees. It is better than none, and not overkill - they shouldnt starve assuming there is enough other forage round about.
Placing less than 3 anywhere would be a waste of time going to visit them additionally to your main sites.
good luck
Calum