Patience please.

[Calluna4u]

A call yesterday, the fourth from different people since just before Christmas, prompts me to just post a little notice on here.

Please do NOT seek supply of nucs at this time of year. We have a three figure number of them overwintering with locally bred queens in them for spring supply....... BUT...........
we will NOT supply ANY nucs to anyone until we see they are safely overwintered, that the queen is laying well, and they are into their expansion phase. This includes disease checking (always by Jolanta or myself) which is currently not possible.
Others on here have seen them, so its not BS to cover for selling imported bees as one kind soul suggested when I said no to their 2 nucs going out last week. (If I sell imported stock I tell it EXACTLY as it is, and its a lot cheaper.)

For now they are in tight cluster and to move them adds an unnecessary risk to the queen and the stress of moving them in non flying weather can set off dysentery inside the hive.

We have the nucs, they are (up to now) in good condition and it all looks very promising, and if you have them reserved they will not be sold to anyone else so please do not worry. We are targeting availability dates to be from about mid April once the season starts to open up.

As an experienced beekeeper I would not consider moving colonies at this time unless there was absolutely no alternative, and would strongly advise beginners seeking their first bees or replacement bees to do the same. Wait till the bees are ready. It will be better for them.

[The Drone Ranger]

Are these people ready to become beekeepers?

[mbc]

Strange place to post this, is it an advert?

[Calluna4u]

Strange place to post this, is it an advert?

Its the exact opposite........its a 'please, don't contact me at this time'.....almost an anti advert. I don't want ANY new orders for the overwintered nucs at this time, I do not know how many of them I will need myself.

Also a bit of a heads up to the more experienced....to respond a bit like DR above, to get their local beginners to settle down and leave things well alone for now.

Even this morning I had someone came in in person looking for a queen.......they think their colony may be queenless as it is 'too active' and 'noisy'. There is much education to be done by associations I fear.

[The Drone Ranger]

It feels hopeless sometimes C4u
There was a whole caffuffle on here( I think) regards a commercial company selling to people who were clueless
Beekeeping isn't brain surgery but some basic knowledge is needed
Even Google would tell them enough not to be so Ill informed
Best just to keep the nucs they will only kill them anway

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[gavin]

It feels hopeless sometimes C4u
There was a whole caffuffle on here( I think) regards [a Gloucester trader] selling to people who were clueless
Beekeeping isn't brain surgery but some basic knowledge is needed
Even Google would tell them enough not to be so I'll informed
Best just to keep the nucs they will only kill them anway

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If it was the one you mean it was on the Beekeeping Forum and led to me asking the SBA for permission and funds to start this one to give a Scottish flavour to discussions online. He was selling imported carnies to a guy in an isolated part of Wester Ross that didn't yet have Varroa, a repeat order after the previous year's died overwinter. He had the backing of a gaggle of beginners that appreciated paying him an inflated sum for some freshly imported stock. 'They can forage off the fence posts for all I care' was a quote that stuck in my mind, as well his robust approach to online discussion. Sadly, his posts were eventually removed. I'm not sure whether he did that himself or not.

The answer is: get into beekeeping through your local association. Most run classes (ours in Dundee start next month) and you'll get lifetime mentoring (if you want it) and locally sourced stocks, often from the association apiary. There are a very few association in Scotland that use imports, the great majority use local bees only. Some are very anxious to keep it that way.

[The Drone Ranger]

That must be it Gavin was that a long time ago ?
He's actually a pretty decent chap but clearly not very principled when it comes to selling

Lots of folk must just get the notion to get bees, and just rush off and buy some online
Not too smart, because unless they know what they are about, that's just money down the drain
Not to mention bad news for the bees and other beekeepers
Backup, help, and ongoing advice are essential ,parts of any sale
Obviously getting some training before you buy bees is another essential and since its free there's no reason to not have done it

Here's the same advice from across the Atlantic this time
http://www.carolinashootersclub.com/index.php?threads/208577/

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[Greengage]

Maybe you should let them adopt the hive over the winter for a small fee and send them regular updates :)

[Calluna4u]

Maybe you should let them adopt the hive over the winter for a small fee and send them regular updates :)

Seems to have quietened down again now, but I did get a cancellation of two nucs. Turned out they thought they could have had them sitting on the front lawn when Dad got up on Christmas morning. Now they are getting on for a month late (I never said they could get them before spring) they have cancelled and 'gone elsewhere'.

C'est la vie.

[Neils]

There is much education to be done by associations I fear.
I think that Associations bear a lot of criticism in this area that is often not warranted.

I happen to think that our association runs one of the better beginners courses that I've encountered but, at an association level, the standard generally, in my experience, is pretty high. What I have seen a lot of in recent years is a big increase in the number of people coming to beginners courses especially who already "know" just what they're going to do. They come to the course, pay their membership and we never see them again except to go collect swarms from around where we last heard they were going to be keeping bees.

What would you have us do? Membership is optional, we lay on a wide range of educational programmes throughout the year. It wasn't that long ago that we had one of the local forum members here come down to the Bristol area to give us a talk and I can reel off a veritable who's who of beekeeping and related areas that have come to deliver talks and workshops, on top of the bog standard courses, apiary sessions, exam workshops, swarm collection services, "bee bimbles" and what-not that we, as an association, put on year after year for free.

We all get "stupid" enquiries throughout the year from supposed beekeepers. I've lost count of the number of people who want me to go to all the trouble of collecting swarms so that they can take them off my hands afterwards. Some of whom get very shirty at the notion that having gone to all the trouble of collecting the damn thing that I might not want to give it to some random stranger wanting bees or, even worse, that they should go collect one themselves.

But I'm still open to suggestion, having been involved in Education at an association level for the past 5 years, at just what we're not doing that would make your life easier :p

[fatshark]

I happen to think that our association runs one of the better beginners courses that I've encountered but, at an association level, the standard generally, in my experience, is pretty high. What I have seen a lot of in recent years is a big increase in the number of people coming to beginners courses especially who already "know" just what they're going to do. They come to the course, pay their membership and we never see them again except to go collect swarms from around where we last heard they were going to be keeping bees.

Does the "beginners course" extend for the full season and into the following spring? Assuming it runs overwinter to start with that is. I think there's relatively little useful practical beekeeping skills that can be taught in ~8 evening sessions over the winter evenings. Much more important is the close mentoring from acquiring bees, first swarm control, preparation for winter etc. How do you measure the success of the course? Numbers attending, or numbers still beekeeping after three years? Many association courses are oversubscribed ... 50+ a year ... but the association membership numbers are relatively static. Somethings's going wrong somewhere.

It sounds like your association is very pro-active in providing support and training opportunities, though the take up of these is the important part.

"Membership is optional" ... perhaps it shouldn't be?

[Calluna4u]

But I'm still open to suggestion, having been involved in Education at an association level for the past 5 years, at just what we're not doing that would make your life easier :p

Sorry, seems my comment was not clear. I was NOT criticising associations. I was commenting that sadly there would be much to be done because the way this country operates the associations will suffer the misfortune of this task falling to them.

Everyone wants everything for nothing if at all possible. The private trainers charge a lot, the govt resources are too stretched, so it will fall to the eager volunteers.

A hard and generally thankless road to follow.

We used to allow folk to tag along (free) for a while to watch and learn and even stuck them into a hive with a smoker and hive tool and got them to do things, but since EFB that had to change with biosecurity needs, and in any case I'm afraid beginners struggled to keep up with the pace we go at, so it was not really a satisfactory way to learn.

Mind you, another factor coloured my judgement on that too. We took a guy out for a whole week with us to show him how to do certain things. When we came back from the heather we found some of our places occupied...with HIS hives. He had found out, among other things, how much honey we gave landowners for places. Simply went and offered more, plus a little brown envelope to say hello, and took our sites. He did not think he did anything wrong either! Makes you wary of helping people.

[gwizzie]

We took a guy out for a whole week with us to show him how to do certain things. When we came back from the heather we found some of our places occupied...with HIS hives.
That is just bloody SHOCKING and so so wrong :mad::mad: I cant put on here what I would do to him ;)

[drumgerry]

Sorry, seems my comment was not clear. I was NOT criticising associations. I was commenting that sadly there would be much to be done because the way this country operates the associations will suffer the misfortune of this task falling to them. Everyone wants everything for nothing if at all possible.

Is it just beekeepers who seem to want their training for free? This is something that really grates with me I must say. People who turn up at associations and expect to be trained and mentored all at the time and expense of the hard pressed experienced members.

Maybe if a market rate was charged we'd get fewer let's say "fly by nights" taking beekeeping up.

Plus what's with the passive expectation that many have that they should be given training. Take responsibility for your own learning! There's no shortage of good information out there (much of it on this forum!).

I've maybe said this before but the first time I ever went into a hive was the day after I had bought two full colonies! And I didn't turn out so bad.....ahem! ;)

[Calluna4u]

Is it just beekeepers who seem to want their training for free?

Of course not.

Although the expectations of getting something for nothing or not a lot has always been there, it really took off when internet access became virtually free.

It raised everyones expectations of how much you can get for nothing and gave rise to a whole new level of libertarianism, especially in the lack of manners with which people sometimes treat each other online. Its all part of the same change in attitudes.

Then you get huge complaints about popup ads and targeted spam. Why do you think you get it free? Its to gather info for advertisers who then indirectly pay for what you think is free.

If they will not pay at least something towards their own training at least make sure your subs are enough to give your generous trainers their costs back. Maybe make it a condition of their training that their first bees must be bought from within the association, so someone gets something back.

I remember listening to a talk by 'an officially appointed person' who said they found that even a 10 pound charge caused a sharp drop off in numbers attending training events. Yet they expect others to pay out to have the pleasure of coming to GIVE them free training.

[The Drone Ranger]

I think that's right
Free training through the Summer
Usually lots of people drop out when they discover bees can sting or its just not for them etc
The people who stay are almost always keen to get bees ASAP
So providing the association can have a reserve of bees available that gets folk off to a good start
There are plenty people with more bees than they need but who don't want the hassle of selling direct and would rather sell to the local association
Most people if they get a little training and support will have a good nuc of their own to sell back through the local association within a season or two
They recover most their initial outlay the local association gets a little bit and a new beekeeper gets a nuc
It's a virtuous circle which everyone benefits from
People just buying bees before getting any experience do so because they think it's simple and they become convinced that a certain breed will have all the attributes they read about in sellers adverts


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[Bumble]

Does the "beginners course" extend for the full season and into the following spring? Assuming it runs overwinter to start with that is. I think there's relatively little useful practical beekeeping skills that can be taught in ~8 evening sessions over the winter evenings. Much more important is the close mentoring from acquiring bees, first swarm control, preparation for winter etc.
Our winter training course runs over 8 weeks, then there is practical indoor and outdoor training throughout the season as well as weekly session at the association apiary. All new beekeepers are offered a mentor.

We get full classrooms, 100% turnout to the first ever apiary session, but after than only one or two turn up each week and maybe only half a dozen go to the practicals which cover extraction, swarm control, winter preparation etc, although everything but extraction are also covered during normal apiary time or at the apiary meetings.

We can't force anybody to attend, and it's difficult to refuse to help if they get into trouble - even though we might want to.

Once the beginners courses are out of the way we run a short refresher course each year that is open to any member of the association. This can lead to the Basic if that's what they want. We organise study groups for anybody who wants to do the modules.


Is it just beekeepers who seem to want their training for free? This is something that really grates with me I must say. People who turn up at associations and expect to be trained and mentored all at the time and expense of the hard pressed experienced members.

Maybe if a market rate was charged we'd get fewer let's say "fly by nights" taking beekeeping up.
We had complaints that 'some' members were getting more for their annual fees because they were doing training courses that cost money to put on - room hire and trainers' travelling expenses - on top of the winter monthly talks and summer apiary meetings. We tried charging just enough to cover costs, but didn't get much take-up. Then there were complaints that too few were doing either the Basic or the modules. Can't win!

We'd like to say we had a membership of interested, educated and well-informed beekeepers, because they're an asset to both the club and the local community, but if want to go it alone they will, and there's not much anybody can do about it.

[Julian]

A small association in my area only has a few beginners each year. They create a colony from the association apiary in the first season and mentor the beginner through the year using the colony. The following season the colony is theirs. Individuals get training, support and the colony only when they have proved they can look after it but only works because of the size of the association.

[The Drone Ranger]

A small association in my area only has a few beginners each year. They create a colony from the association apiary in the first season and mentor the beginner through the year using the colony. The following season the colony is theirs. Individuals get training, support and the colony only when they have proved they can look after it but only works because of the size of the association.

That sounds like a good model to me Julian
Small Local associations might be be the best way forward

[Calum]

I am our association trainer it transpires.
If they dont turn up with beers, they can crawl back under their rocks....
Well, no, not quite, but they have to buy their kit up front, and they pay top dollar for their colonies. I figure about 600€.
People that get given colonies for free dont care for them. People that bought top quality top dollar stock make sure they do everything they have to, to keep them healthy.

[prakel]

I am our association trainer it transpires.
If they dont turn up with beers, they can crawl back under their rocks....
Well, no, not quite, but they have to buy their kit up front, and they pay top dollar for their colonies. I figure about 600€.
People that get given colonies for free dont care for them. People that bought top quality top dollar stock make sure they do everything they have to, to keep them healthy.

Top class attitude (apart from the alcohol :)). Been saying for years that bees are undervalued which in turn undermines the husbandry. In an age when mongrel cats cost £30 and upwards without, as far as I can tell, heavy winter losses to keep the numbers down I often wonder why so many people appear to shrink from the idea of paying a decent price for a nuc or a queen.

My attitude has always been that I'd happily give a nuc or a queen to someone who, for whatever reason, I thought deserved it but that's a private thing based on prior knowledge and very different to this apparent urge that many seem to have to set a low market value.

They want cheap bees they should put up a few bait hives.

[Calum]

looks like ten frames here will be 150€ again this season.
170€ for a 20 frame colony.
Cheap considering they will bring in about that amount in "spring" honey alone.

Frames are 0,90€
Foundation 19€/ (http://www.holtermann-shop.de/index.php/cPath/56_50/category/mittelwaende.html)kg :eek: up from 12€kg last year
So thats 28€ or 56€(20 frames!) off the top just there in the price.
So for me 150€ is cheap all things considered - suberb value for money from a buyers point of view.
Mongrel cats 30pounds? thats 60pounds for a pair of non matching gloves! :p

[fatshark]

Mongrel cats 30pounds? thats 60pounds for a pair of non matching gloves! :p

And a very nice casserole ;)

[Bumble]

A small association in my area only has a few beginners each year. They create a colony from the association apiary in the first season and mentor the beginner through the year using the colony. The following season the colony is theirs. Individuals get training, support and the colony only when they have proved they can look after it but only works because of the size of the association.
There's talk of offering reasonably priced brought-on, and health checked, swarms but apiary space is still the problem.

We have been thinking of offering new beekeepers colonies of their own to look after, but don't really have the space in the association apiary and nor do we have enough colonies to split to provide them with bees.


That sounds like a good model to me Julian
Small Local associations might be be the best way forward
Ours was a small association until beekeeping became popular (trendy) and people started queueing up for beginners courses. It's difficult to turn people away, but we have to admit that we can only cope with 'so many' new beekeepers each season.

Even with a large association there are still only a few, maybe 15%, who do the helping and run the courses so it's easy for newcomers to feel quite lost when they come along to a meeting and don't know many people. We are frindly though, mostly.

[SDM]

The problem is slightly different in my local association and was being discussed at the agm last night. Most new members come through basic training at the nearby national centre. They pay their sub's each year but are never seen at meetings/talks or training. It has been suggested that on joining they be given a mentor that meets them at the door each month, to report and give an update to. If each mentor has a couple of newbees then this would get past the intimidation of bothering a mentor with their worries and of walking into a room full of people you don't know as by default they would regularly meet the mentors other students and virtually guarantee their further education as they would likely stay for the talks.
It's not fair to blame the trainers. If you take a typical course of 8 evening sessions, there is precious little time to cover what they should be doing and therefore no time at all to cover what they shouldn't.
It should be made much clearer that these basic courses allow a beginner to take on their first bees either with support or with further self education.
There will always be those who jump into beekeeping only to loose their bees or discover they don't want them. I've no doubt there are good Beekeepers who have come to beekeeping by every path. Like so much in this subject, there's rarely only one right way.

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder if there are people planning to start beekeeping this year reading the thread
If so my first bit of advice would be don't buy a hive and then look for bees to fill it

Find your local association and have a look at the types of hives available and what other people use
Budget for a hive and a nucleus box plus bees you are going to need both as an absolute minimum
One thing that is important to consider is where you will put your hive if you get one
Lots of people want to try beekeeping and it doesn't suit everyone
It is an expensive thing to begin with so its better to try it before you start spending

If you had a big garden and just put one hive in it you might love the slightly impractical but beautiful WBC
If you have a great apiary elsewhere and want to have lots of hives at some future time you might be better to start with something more utilitarian like the Langstroth
You are not going to magically figure it all out for yourself so join the local association and get all the benefits of other people's mistakes and a source of training and bees
You must get training on bee diseases


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[The Drone Ranger]

There's talk of offering reasonably priced brought-on, and health checked, swarms but apiary space is still the problem.


Ours was a small association until beekeeping became popular (trendy) and people started queueing up for beginners courses. It's difficult to turn people away, but we have to admit that we can only cope with 'so many' new beekeepers each season.

Even with a large association there are still only a few, maybe 15%, who do the helping and run the courses so it's easy for newcomers to feel quite lost when they come along to a meeting and don't know many people. We are frindly though, mostly.
Hi Bumble
As a non member I shouldn't have so much to say I suppose


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[SDM]

I wonder if there are people planning to start beekeeping this year reading the thread
If so my first bit of advice would be don't buy a hive and then look for bees to fill it

Find your local association and have a look at the types of hives available and what other people use
Budget for a hive and a nucleus box plus bees you are going to need both as an absolute minimum
One thing that is important to consider is where you will put your hive if you get one
Lots of people want to try beekeeping and it doesn't suit everyone
It is an expensive thing to begin with so its better to try it before you start spending

If you had a big garden and just put one hive in it you might love the slightly impractical but beautiful WBC
If you have a great apiary elsewhere and want to have lots of hives at some future time you might be better to start with something more utilitarian like the Langstroth
You are not going to magically figure it all out for yourself so join the local association and get all the benefits of other people's mistakes and a source of training and bees
You must get training on bee diseases


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The only bit I don't agree with is the first part, you'll probably be fine with any type of hive if its just going to be one. Peoples objectives change and what type of hive is best for them will be mostly personal choice, but also influenced by the bees they keep. I think the advice of a national hive first is sound, based on availability of parts, bees etc.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi SDM
Nationals are a good choice as you say
Angus College ran a beekeeping course about 2003 or so
There were 18 people on day one and
6 stayed till the end and became beekeepers
The rest realised wisely that it wasn't for them
Of those 6 at least 1 gave up beekeeping after a couple of years
It takes up a lot of time in Summer interferes with holidays etc and not everyone realises that



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[prakel]

It takes up a lot of time in Summer interferes with holidays etc and not everyone realises that

On the flip side, the fact that the season is so short is the main reason that it's harder to gain a level of competence in beekeeping than in many other hobbies.

Half year off as far as practical/hands on; maybe two thirds of the year off, depending on your mentor's school of thought.

Summer holidays with the family.

Severe bad weather on your one free day.

Advice to keep one, certainly no more than two colonies till you get 'experience'.

etc.

Disclaimer: None of the above is relevant if you have a copy of 'At the Hive Entrance'.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi prakel
Storch
I have a copy
Terribly dry though I still haven't figured out" the building frame "
Must dig it out again
One of my beekeeping friends has had bees for 30 years but in his case it's like 2years experience repeated 15 times
I'm like that with gardening which he is brilliant at :)

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[prakel]

Hi prakel
Storch
I have a copy
Terribly dry though

Did I forget the similing face? Not so much the book, which is interesting in parts, but the assumption in some quarters that such knowledge can eliminate the need for real hands on experience.



I still haven't figured out" the building frame "

Right, the way I read it is that it's effectively a deep framed window which allows space for a comb to be built next to the glass. But can be reversed during the winter to close up the space by placing the glass closer to the proper combs. I've seen an assumption that it's the same as a warre window but that doesn't appear to be the way it's described in the Storch book or, briefly, here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjGufOy5c7KAhWGFCwKHRqhBYoQFggxMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tandfonline.com%2Fdoi%2Fpdf%2 F10.1080%2F0005772X.1949.11096616&usg=AFQjCNF4uDY6M22JXr2pEYTUAY4TftfRwQ&sig2=68W4ggq-IDYWN0zz3MiGRw

Bee World Volume 30, Issue 7, 1949

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Prakel
When books get translated I think they can lose something
German seems to suffer worst which is a real pity because a lot of top beekeeping writers are published in German
Eric McArthur often translated stuff for the SBA magazine from German

You are right enough though all the books don't substitute for actual experience
With gardening where I have a huge collection of books I never do things at the right time or get round to double digging etc
So I am a rotten gardener, I read the books but don't apply the lessons
The old lady who lived next to us when we bought our first house had a lovely garden
She only had one book (The Big Book of the Garden) and she gave that to me :)

Every year you get one chance to get it right always with unpredictable weather

[The Drone Ranger]

The title of this thread always reminds me of Count Arthur Strong

https://youtu.be/RxvqJo4vH7M

I read the linked pdf prakel these old articles are always interesting (to me anyway)
Beginning with "Metal Ends are a menace when extracting" :)
funny enough I am going back to using the plastic ones in the broodbox (only)
It's easy to tell the frame age as they are colour coded for the year