Scottish parliament honey

[drumgerry]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/95386.aspx

I'm assuming this is still KVH (who I thought had gone bust and were selling all their kit) producing this. If so.....aaaaargh!!!

[Greengage]

Since when are honey bees endangered in Scotland.

[drumgerry]

Oh well I'm trying to give the Parliament more of an insight (as I see it) on their FB page

https://www.facebook.com/scottishparliament/photos/a.328212350610531.69616.105414346223667/882084855223275/?type=3&comment_id=882625765169184&reply_comment_id=882958065135954&notif_t=photo_reply

[Calluna4u]

Oh well I'm trying to give the Parliament more of an insight (as I see it) on their FB page

https://www.facebook.com/scottishparliament/photos/a.328212350610531.69616.105414346223667/882084855223275/?type=3&comment_id=882625765169184&reply_comment_id=882958065135954¬if_t=photo_reply

Do you actually KNOW the origin of the bees they placed there? Is it just rumours and tittle tattle?

FWIW I have NEVER sold any bees, imported or otherwise, to Kelvin Valley honey.

That is not to say they are not imported, just that I have no direct knowledge to say they are. It is perfectly possible that they get them either from another importer or from a secondary vendor.

However, again with no actual knowledge of the bees involved, it is important to remember these bees are more or less in a public space, and unless you want Claims Direct or similar coming hounding you, you must be very careful about the temperament of stock placed in such a location, or have very good insurance.

The local stock I have met round Edinburgh both to the east and west were decent enough bees and considered gentle *by their keepers*, but from what I saw I would not have thought them safe in a semi public location.

The business model of people paying to have bees on their premises or to sponsor hives is very interesting but I doubt its sustainability long term once the fashion fades and folk realise that honeybees are actually far from endangered, as the alarm stories only focus on losses and treat them as cumulative rather than taking account of the new colonies established each year.

When I get to my office I will post a link from France to show what some of these types of enterprise aspire to, and can be taking in 1000 euros and more per hive from concerned and supportive individuals, and still keeping most of the honey too. Nice work if you can get it but the admin must be terrifying.

[drumgerry]

As to the origins of their bees they're Buckfasts. Maybe you can point me in the direction of a Scottish origin supplier of these? I can think of one who trumpets british origin but whose claims, lets just say as this is a public forum, have been undermined. In any case I was careful not to say that the actual bees were imported. I said they were non-native which is true. I also said that KVH were well known importers - they may not be so directly but at second hand which may have been the more accurate thing to say.

Not sure I'd agree that making outlandish and false claims about "saving the bees" in order to rake money in is "nice work if you can get it". It does us all a disservice that these lies by these companies have taken such deep roots in the public consciousness.

[Calluna4u]

http://www.untoitpourlesabeilles.fr/recherche/particuliers/apiculteur/16-apiculteur-thierry-salavin.html

[drumgerry]

Not sure what I'm looking at there. Is it a French enterprise along the lines of KVH?

Interesting, after a bit of digging, to find the "parent" company of KVH has gone into administration. After having been in receipt of hundreds of thousands in grant money over a few short years

The lowdown - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC374011/filing-history

[Calluna4u]

[QUOTE=drumgerry;33952] Maybe you can point me in the direction of a Scottish origin supplier of these?QUOTE]

Myself? Our strains J7, J7A, and J25 are all Buckfast. Damn good and very well suited to our area....and yours btw.......several daughters of J7 got a cracking crop at the heather near Kincraig in 2015 and are into winter on 8 and 9 seams of bees in a Langstroth. We have supplied them to several people who are equally happy.

However, an AMM bee they most certainly are not. Also its a side alley, as there is absolutely no chance that the Kelvin Valley bees are of these lines.

Also........please don't dismiss the 'undermined supplier' as all bad. He uses two very good breeders in the UK to supply him with queens, Michael Collier, plus one other I know of, and might also sometimes get from Ged Marshall. Both use bees that are well suited to the UK climate.

Whilst its just plain daft to use bees that are poor performers in an area, the term locally adapted is misused to mean native types, and I have seen plenty Amm that were rubbish in this area, and plenty stock of non local origin that is brilliant and cross well.

[drumgerry]

Ok so we've established that you haven't supplied them.

Perhaps they used Ged Marshall. Doesn't he import his breeder queens from Keld Brandstrup in Denmark? And regardless both he and Michael Collier are not in Scotland.

Not going to get into what strains do well or not C4U or whether or not imports are bad. It seems that this subject is gone round the houses pretty regularly on here with no resolution. You have your opinion, I have mine and so be it.

[Calluna4u]

parrainer une ruche particulier - un toit pour les abeilles - adopter une ruche
1.Vous choisissez le nombre d'abeilles que vous souhaitez parrainer par tranche de parrainage de 4 000 abeilles (une colonie d’abeilles comprend environ 40 000 abeilles).
2.Nous installons votre ruche chez un de nos apiculteurs partenaires installés sur le territoire français. Il prend soin de vos abeilles et récolte votre miel.
3.Votre nom ou personnalisation de votre choix est inscrit sur les pots de miel, ainsi que sur la page du site à droite de votre ruche (sauf avis contraire de votre part).
4.Les photos de votre ruche sont visibles sur notre site internet.
5.Vous recevrez chaque année vos pots de miel, témoignage de votre engagement en faveur des abeilles et de la protection de l’environnement.
6.Vous pouvez déguster votre miel !


Vous parrainez Vous recevrez Le montant de votre parrainage est de

4 000 abeilles 6 pots de 250g par an 8 €/mois TTC soit 96 € sur une année
8 000 abeilles 12 pots de 250g par an 14 €/mois TTC soit 168 € sur une année
12 000 abeilles 18 pots de 250g par an 20 €/mois TTC soit 240 € sur une année
16 000 abeilles 24 pots de 250g par an 25 €/mois TTC soit 300 € sur une année


The list of names beside each hive is the list of sponsors of each colony.

They have divided the colony up into notional 4000 bee segments, based on mid season populations of (apparently) 40000.

Sponsor your 4000 bees and you pay 96 euros a year. Ten sponsors per hive equals 960 euros, for which you get 6 250g pots of honey and can follow YOUR sponsored hive on the website.

There are quite a lot of hives there, and if you click on the apiculteurs link you can see there are a lot of people doing it all over France.

Last spring we saw similar in Spain. As usual we are way behind the 8 ball in this country.

Do I agree with the idea? No. Do I think its is honest? No. Would I do it? No. ..... but...there are a LOT of people out there who have heard all the crisis talk and are happy to put in some lolly to making themselves feel good, and some businesses happy to relieve them of it. You focus on Kelvin Valley. What about Plan Bee?

[drumgerry]

Plan Bee? Similar business model to KVH but I don't know much about them otherwise. Edit - just looked on their website! Adopt a feckin bee?!!! You've got be be kidding me! Words fail me...

The way I see it the business model is bound to come a cropper once people realise that the "crisis" is a fiction. Maybe best to get in and get out quick having maximised your earnings while you still have people fooled eh?!

[Calluna4u]

Plan Bee? Similar business model to KVH but I don't know much about them otherwise. ?!

If they were dogs, folk have been shooting the Chihuahua.....and paying no attention to the Irish Wolfhound in the same game. They are sizeable and very slick operators.

[gavin]

Whilst its just plain daft to use bees that are poor performers in an area, the term locally adapted is misused to mean native types, and I have seen plenty Amm that were rubbish in this area, and plenty stock of non local origin that is brilliant and cross well.

You'll have seen plenty of the reverse too I presume? :)

In general, according to most observers, crossing between different types of bee - in the second generation if not the first - can yield a particularly aggressive bee. Perhaps that is ameliorated if you are using highly bred particularly gentle stock to start with. However we don't know the provenance of the parliamentary Buckfast bees. What we do know is that within two weeks of their arrival, there was a swarm settling just over the building. So they were likely straight into the next queen generation right away - as often happens with folk inexperienced in beekeeping (or trying to manage them from a base on the other side of Scotland).

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/swarm-of-20-000-bees-invade-scottish-parliament-1-3461421

I suspect the denial of ownership was a political denial.

I don't see any temper advantage in stocking the Scottish Parliament hives with a strain like Buckfast unless the beekeeper nearby (there is one, I know nothing about his bees) is keeping the same strain, or they are repeatedly requeening with a pure line.

[fatshark]

Adopt a feckin bee?!!!

I think you're onto a winner there drumgerry ...

2537

A clever combination appealing both to those keen to 'Save the bees' and those who are easily intimidated ... nice one ;)

Interesting (by which I mean in a disappointing) that people are happy enough to support this sort of nonsense but baulk at paying realistic amounts for local honey, instead opting to buy the 'Produce of EU and non-EU countries' from the local supermarket ...

[Calluna4u]

You'll have seen plenty of the reverse too I presume? :)

I have certainly seen quite a few. Pure Italians would be a start on that list, and almost all the stock I have seen out of Greece, and yet to see a good Caucasian for here. But those are performance issues rather than temperament.

In general, according to most observers, crossing between different types of bee - in the second generation if not the first - can yield a particularly aggressive bee. Perhaps that is ameliorated if you are using highly bred particularly gentle stock to start with. However we don't know the provenance of the parliamentary Buckfast bees. What we do know is that within two weeks of their arrival, there was a swarm settling just over the building. So they were likely straight into the next queen generation right away - as often happens with folk inexperienced in beekeeping (or trying to manage them from a base on the other side of Scotland).

That we don't know their provenance was essentially the point I was making from the start. I don't know and I suspect others don't know either. Many people call their bees Buckfast all over the world, yet it might be 15 or 20 years since they last had true Buckfast blood added. They could be Buckfast of several generations vintage and locally bred to boot. I just don't know, and not going to hang a stricken enterprise on the basis of internet chatter.

I had said so many times I think this is a case of give a dog a bad name and it smells. Over many thousands of crosses I have never seen this to be true, or even near to true. Others say differently, but have never had a hive that was aggressive because it was a cross. Bad genetics to begin with is another matter altogether. Nasty bees in the mix then nasty bees will be around, and it only needs one sub family to be nasty and it seems like the whole colony is nasty. You and I both know my opinion that nasty bees, and I mean really nasty, in our area possibly have an iberica content, and having seen plenty of these in the past I would not wish them or their crosses on anyone.
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/swarm-of-20-000-bees-invade-scottish-parliament-1-3461421

I suspect the denial of ownership was a political denial.

Common thing, political denial of swarms.........a 'cant be arsed' denial perhaps too?

I don't see any temper advantage in stocking the Scottish Parliament hives with a strain like Buckfast unless the beekeeper nearby (there is one, I know nothing about his bees) is keeping the same strain, or they are repeatedly requeening with a pure line.

As I understand it, from someone who knows the situation better than I, the bees are only put there is spring and taken away again later in the season and are currently wintering somewhere else. Whether the same bees or fresh ones go back there I do not know.

Also of relevance to this thread might be examples such as those hives at the butterfly house near Dalkeith? Chatting to them on a visit there they were intentionally selected to be gentle bees for the sake of the visitors, according to 'their beekeeper' who is not a staff member. What were they? Again Buckfasts according to the staff member I was speaking to. They were advised NOT to have local black bees by whoever it was. So the prevalent opinion on here is far from universal.

[drumgerry]

Fatshark - best laugh I've had in ages! How about savethefeckinbees.com or thebeesaredyinoot.co.uk?

[The Drone Ranger]

It's better for all concerned if queen selection is primarily for good behaviour
If you are replacing your bees or even queens every year then that becomes someone else's responsibility
For most of us that's not the case so we need to raise queens from the best behaved stock we have

If you are a beekeeper with a couple of years experience that doesn't have bees coming out of their ears, and not enough equipment to stick them in
Then you are either doing something very wrong or are very lucky to be able to afford all the hives you need

Once you realise that, then the next step is to be more particular about which queens head the hives

I have hybrids and they are fine in most cases with a bit of weeding out
Despite that its better for me if my neighbour doesn't keep bringing in quantities of new stock all the time
That gives me some chance of stability and predictable swarm times etc

The odd queen or two won't make much difference and might even be beneficial

Right so having said that I would also say that I have one pretty pure(ish) Amm queen, who's bees are as well behaved and productive as the very best I already have, (should add that they filled two brood boxes and didn't swarm )
I can't say that all the queens the breeder raised would be equally good because they are all individuals but there is a fair chance

I grafted from her last year and the daughters bees had no aggression issues as far as I could tell

So I'm inclined to say if you are in the market for a queen you will get most of the attributes you want from a well bred Amm but the next generation will still be a cross (same as every other breed), so unless you have very deep pockets, then choosing from the best of your own eventually is the only way forward

[Greengage]

What about this one is it similar??
http://www.bbka.org.uk/about/adopt_a_beehive/

[fatshark]

Phil? (http://www.bbka.org.uk/shop/product/adopt-a-beehive-scotland/)

Better not mention this to Bron ...

[gavin]

Phil? (http://www.bbka.org.uk/shop/product/adopt-a-beehive-scotland/)

Better not mention this to Bron ...

adoptafeckinscottishbeehivetoraisemoneyfortheengli shBBKA.com

They've managed to rope in folk to do the Welsh and Norn Iron Adopt-a-Hive too. That's going to work wonders for any campaign for a little honesty in the naming of the BBKA.

[Calluna4u]

I think you all got what you wanted. (Local bees, sustainability etc etc)

The tender documents for the next seasons bees at the Scottish Parliament arrived here today. Horrendous conditions, a lot of work to do it properly, and if they previous people did anything even close to the spec that has gone out then they deserve every penny they got. Having someone permanently on call out to deal with any issues must mean it can only be a local person to do it, but thats probably pretty fair anyway.

Unsurprisingly I will not be bidding.

[drumgerry]

The conditions do seem rather onerous. Good publicity for anyone who takes it on but the remuneration would need to be significant to make it worthwhile for anyone. Even if I lived within reach it wouldn't be something I'd want to take on.