The Biology of Mating by Juliana Rangel (NHS lecture).

[prakel]

Anothe great video lecture from the National Honey Show, this time it's 'The Biology of Mating' by Juliana Rangel.


https://youtu.be/tLHcle6CKcg

[prakel]

A good reference which touches on many points which are regularly discussed on this forum.

[gavin]

A good reference which touches on many points which are regularly discussed on this forum.

Yes, a nice presentation. One topic we've discussed which she touched on was the conditions for mating flights. I was a little surprised to see her view on the environmental conditions for mating flights:

- temp >75F (ie 23.9C)
- sunny or partially blue sky
- little wind (<10mph)

Maybe these American bees are spoiled.

[madasafish]

Yes, a nice presentation. One topic we've discussed which she touched on was the conditions for mating flights. I was a little surprised to see her view on the environmental conditions for mating flights:

- temp >75F (ie 23.9C)
- sunny or partially blue sky
- little wind (<10mph)

Maybe these American bees are spoiled.

I would never have mated any queens this year with those temperature limits...

[prakel]

I wonder whether the screen shot should actually have said 65f rather than 75?

edit: This paper discusses temperature too:

Observation of the Mating Behavior of Honey Bee (Apis mellifera L.) Queens Using Radio-Frequency Identification (RFID): Factors Influencing the Duration and Frequency of Nuptial Flights

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/5/3/513/pdf

[gavin]

I wonder whether the screen shot should actually have said 65f rather than 75?


Could be. Every link you post is interesting and relevant. However this one (to the Heidinger paper) is fantastic, thanks. :)

[Jon]

Occasionally, queens do not enter their mating nuc immediately after returning, but instead cluster together with worker bees in front of the entrance (own observation).

Interesting that clustering behaviour was noted after mating flights. This chimes with with the clustering I see which I think is related to mating flights or AvM.
This paper was looking at Carnica queen mating flights as opposed to Amm.

[The Drone Ranger]

Interesting that clustering behaviour was noted after mating flights. This chimes with with the clustering I see which I think is related to mating flights or AvM.
This paper was looking at Carnica queen mating flights as opposed to Amm.

I thought Julianna Rangel said queens mate with 15+ drones not from the home apiary
have I watched the wrong lecture ?

Apologies Jon you mean the article linked to and the passage
"Nuptial flights of
more than one hour duration also appear unlikely [23]. Occasionally, queens do not enter their mating
nuc immediately after returning, but instead cluster together with worker bees in front of the entrance"

That doesn't mention AVM though ?

[Jon]

hi. The quote was from the paper Prakel posted.
I haven't watched to the end of the lecture yet!

The clustering observation is interesting whether the mating takes pace locally or in a DCA

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/5/3/513/pdf

[The Drone Ranger]

hi. The quote was from the paper Prakel posted.
I haven't watched to the end of the lecture yet!

The clustering observation is interesting whether the mating takes pace locally or in a DCA

http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/5/3/513/pdf

Hi Jon crossed post while I was correcting my earlier mistake
I didn't think it was concerning AVM just clustering after a mating flight to a normal DCA

[Jon]

That's the issue though. I see the clustering in my apiaries on a regular basis but I can't of course be certain where the actual mating has taken place.

The clustering is not something you read about in standard descriptions of mating behaviour.

[gavin]

I Googled the name and place of the first of the breeding stations mentioned in the methods of the paper. Here is the Google Translate version:

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.lvthi.de/belegst/th_9.html&prev=search

Click on 'All quotations' and it shows some details of the services offered and the quality of the queens produced.

Interesting. What's 'Weisel'?

[gavin]

OK Weisel is queen bee. That is very cheap if these are mated queens.

[Pete L]

OK Weisel is queen bee. That is very cheap if these are mated queens.

I expect that is what they charge per virgin queen taken to the station for mating.

[gavin]

Still not bad price if these gains in trait scores can be made. Probably subsidised though?

[The Drone Ranger]

That's the issue though. I see the clustering in my apiaries on a regular basis but I can't of course be certain where the actual mating has taken place.

The clustering is not something you read about in standard descriptions of mating behaviour.

Well I would be more likely to take your word for it regards AVM Jon than some of the stuff I find on the web.

Mostly its just people repeating something they read which was again somebody quoting (misquoting) Dave Cushman
Who was recounting Beowulf Cooper

I find it's mostly claimed as an Amm trait and that people in pretty hybridised areas who have "discovered" local Amm still claim it

I don't know myself but I'm pretty sure if bees have Varroa we can say they are hybrids to some degree
If we accept AVM in those populations then we can't also believe its the mechanism for pure Amm populations in the midst of a hybridised area

I know you are not in that boat and I don't want to give offence to people breeding Amm type bees in difficult areas
But I also would not feel right about accepting claims that AVM is a characteristic of Black Bees or Amm without real evidence

One researcher asked if perpetual motion COULD be possible said

"Well if you told me a dog caused traffic chaos in New York I would say unlikely.
If you told me an escaped tiger caused traffic chaos it would be more unlikely and I would need to know which zoo
If you told me a Stegosaurus caused traffic chaos in New York I wouldn't believe you unless I saw it too"

[gavin]

You can see some strange things in New York.


http://p1.pichost.me/i/14/1371434.jpg

Hmmn. That's a bit big.

What about that V in AVM. Queens don't fly very far anyway - usually 2-3km according to Ruttner and Ruttner 1966. About a third of flights last just 3-10 mins according to the paper Prakel quoted in this thread. It is the drones that wander further.

[prakel]

What about that V in AVM. Queens don't fly very far anyway - usually 2-3km according to Ruttner and Ruttner 1966. About a third of flights last just 3-10 mins according to the paper Prakel quoted in this thread. It is the drones that wander further.


I assume that you're refering to drones drifting to other hives (is that what they do or is there an aspect of migration involved?). With regard to the actual mating flights of drones and queens, the Koeniger's research demonstrates that on average the drones stay closer to home than the queens, as described here:

Mating Biology of Honeybees by G. Koeniger (National Honey Show 2014).

https://youtu.be/cI26DLS2CyM


---------------------------

While I'm still not entirely sold on what's happening in the AVM scenarios described by Jon and others (or whether it would even be the healthiest option for the long term population in a natural environment) I do try to keep a partially open mind so here's an early reference -some of which is quite forward thinking considering the date. But there's a lot of background context, not least the general lack of knowledge (mind, Phillips probably knew more about bees than most of us!). Although the author was certainly using improved ligustica it was still in the time period when 'black' bees were common in the US.


PHENOMENA IN MATING.

In from five to ten days after the emerging of the young queen
from the queen cell, she leaves the colony for her mating flight. The
first flights of a queen from the hive are very short, and, like young
workers, she flies in circles near the entrance, as if fixing the location.
Several such flights may be taken before she really takes a long one.
Finally, however, she leaves the entrance and flies in ever-increasing
circles upward, and, if there are drones in the apiary or near by, she
is usually mated. The height to which she flies and the distance from
the hive at which she meets the drone depend entirely on circum-
stances; it may be near at hand or even a couple of miles away. This
is a matter very difficult of observation, naturally, but the mating has
often been observed by chance. It is a very simple matter to see the
first circles of the virgin on leaving the hive entrance, and if drones
are plentiful it is not hard to see that many of them start after her.
Anyone can verify so much; the rest depends on chance observations......

.......SELECTION OF DRONES.

The selection of drones is one of the things in which the vast
majority of bee keepers are notoriously careless. Queen breeders
will select a breeding queen with great care and allow her progeny to
mate with drones from any hive in the apiary, and just as long as this
is done there can be no advance in the types. Drones should not be
allowed to fly except from colonies where the queens are prolific and
the bees good workers, and just as much care should be exercised in
the choice of colonies for the production of drones as for breeding.

THE REARING OF QUEEN BEES by EF Phillips 1905.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiilbi_j6bJAhVKFCwKHegqBC8QFgggMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fstream%2Fqueenbe00 unit%2Fqueenbe00unit_djvu.txt&usg=AFQjCNG2sntwRZKvyhO-5KVSRRnX8Iil1A&sig2=spAhC8SNlLCTUYs0OT3ZmQ

[Jon]

I find it's mostly claimed as an Amm trait ....

I know you are not in that boat.....

I'm not in that boat - and that is one of the main gripes I have about the Beo Cooper writings promoted by Bibba.
I see that stuff as anti science as the claims are always prefaced with 'in my view' 'over the years I have noted' etc.
There is no attempt at all to reference anything.

What I have seen may well occur in some or all of the other mellifera subspecies and I have no vested interest in claiming it is exclusive to Amm.
The AvM is just one of many claims made as exclusive to Amm.
Amm is also supposed to store pollen differently from other subspecies.
Amm workers are supposed to live longer than workers from other subspecies.
This is repeated all over bibba literature including the brand new website (http://bibba.com/native-honey-bees/) but no evidence is provided.
I removed all this type of claim from the NIHBS website when they asked me to take over as webmaster.
I remember deleting an unreferenced statement that Amm has more resistance to the foulbrood diseases than other subspecies.
Nice thought though!

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Jon
There are enough good features of well bred Amm to make them attractive without the more dubious claims
Some strains will be way better than others and that's the case for all the types of honey bee


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[Jon]

Hi Jon
There are enough good features of well bred Amm to make them attractive without the more dubious claims

Exactly.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Gavin
This study of mating seems to be saying there are plenty drones everywhere even in low density areas
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4361586/
Lots of mating with different drones
If queens somehow mate with drones not from their own apiary that mechanism doesn't seem well understood
So if you bought in 10 queens from different sources and they were in the same apiary then they are unrelated in pheromones or whatever
However if its a distance method of differentiation all your drones will still be flying in different locations from your virgin queens

I am not clear on which might be the best method but it would seem to be have all the local beekeepers with one bee type AND for all those beekeepers to have unrelated strains

Open mating favour hybridisation that's why almost every bee we have is a hybrid


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[Jon]

Don't forget that study which suggested that there may be a mechanism which favours within subspecies crossing

Partial reproductive isolation between European subspecies of honey bees (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-013-0212-y)
Andrzej Oleksa, Jerzy Wilde, Adam Tofilski, Igor J. Chybicki

Northern Poland is inhabited by native Apis mellifera mellifera (AMM) and the non-native A. m. carnica (AMC) which was introduced by beekeepers. However, hybrids between the two subspecies of honey bee are relatively rare.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Jon
that's interesting but what is the mechanism by which queens can "choose " their mates
Thats where information seems scarce
Now if its just random luck or avoidance of something that looks wrong in colour fair enough
Can a queen smell a mate while in flight surrounded by a load of suitors
Queens are able to fly but drones seem to get lots more practice
My money is on the drone outflying a reluctant queen
So if there is some mechanism it is not an obvious one

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[gavin]

I assume that you're refering to drones drifting to other hives (is that what they do or is there an aspect of migration involved?). With regard to the actual mating flights of drones and queens, the Koeniger's research demonstrates that on average the drones stay closer to home than the queens, as described here:

Mating Biology of Honeybees by G. Koeniger (National Honey Show 2014).

https://youtu.be/cI26DLS2CyM



Haven't looked at the video yet (it is a busy few days) but the comments on drones were on drones out on mating flights from a home base and are discussed here:

The flight characteristics of drones in relation to mating
Joseph R. Goelho
Bee Science 1996

'Most studies show that the average length of time spent in a mating flight by a drone is -30 min. (reviewed by Witherell 1971), which represents 81% of the theoretically available time. Drones routinely reach congregation areas 5 km from the natal colony, and occasionally as far as 5 km, while virgin queens probably fly only 2-3 km on mating flights (Ruttner and Ruttner 1966). Yet matings routinely occur between drones and queens whose natal colonies are l2 km apart, and occasionally up to 17 km apart (Taylor, Kinsolver, and Otis 1986). Drones return from mating flights with virtually empty honey crops (Ruttn er 1966, Coelho, unpublished observations). These observations suggest that drones commonly use all of the time and range available to them from their energy stores, perhaps retaining a small amount of fuel as a safety lactor. The energetic strategy of drones appears to be that ol utilizing nearly completely the energy stores on a given flight, returning to the hive, refueling, then taking another flight. In this way as many as eight flights may be taken in one day (Witherell l97l). '

[gavin]

Hi Jon
that's interesting but what is the mechanism by which queens can "choose " their mates
Thats where information seems scarce


Bees make very rapid decisions whether or not to challenge a robber so I think mid-air choice is feasible for queens. There is also the valve fold which gives her choice at the actual moment. There has been talk (loose talk?) of different types flying at different heights.

Your experienced and committed keepers of imported stocks note that - despite force of numbers in some situations - stocks partially revert to something Amm-like. Why is that - advantage of native-type drones flying better, longer in iffy conditions? Something genetic and subtle such as genetic drive? Better survival of your more native-like hybrids due to local disease pressure? Or is this reversion also not well recorded and doubtful? That Polish work Jon cited shows that there are thigs going on that we don't understand (yet).

[prakel]

Drones return from mating flights with virtually empty honey crops (Ruttn er 1966, Coelho, unpublished observations). These observations suggest that drones commonly use all of the time and range available to them from their energy stores, perhaps retaining a small amount of fuel as a safety lactor. The energetic strategy of drones appears to be that ol utilizing nearly completely the energy stores on a given flight, returning to the hive, refueling, then taking another flight. In this way as many as eight flights may be taken in one day (Witherell l97l). '

That's an interesting excerpt Gavin (I'll read the full paper later -time's short for me too), as I understand it, the Koeniger's results showed drones favouring closer DCAs because of their need to refuel and get back onto the wing as quickly as possible to enhance their chance of mating whereas a queen could afford to fly further afield as she may only need ten minutes or so actual mating time once she gets to the DCA and of course the odds are stacked in her favour compared to those of an individual drone.

[The Drone Ranger]

Your experienced and committed keepers of imported stocks note that - despite force of numbers in some situations - stocks partially revert to something Amm-like. Why is that - advantage of native-type drones flying better, longer in iffy conditions? Something genetic and subtle such as genetic drive? Better survival of your more native-like hybrids due to local disease pressure? Or is this reversion also not well recorded and doubtful? That Polish work Jon cited shows that there are thigs going on that we don't understand (yet).

Hi Gavin
you may be right it would seem there is an inbuilt factor in honeybee mating that favours hybridisation so its probably expected that imported Carnica or whatever will be heavily hybridised in the next generation
Likewise for Amm type queens etc

The study Jon linked to was very interesting this is my impression of it

There were only two strains or lines of bees
3 of each queen mothers Amm AmC
24 daughter queens of each in the mating study
3 Amm queens disappeared on the mating flights
The remaining 45 queens were put in nucleus hives of AmC only workers
The testing of all the local bee populations was 1 worker from each hive in 3 main apiaries


I didn't understand the statistical analyses of the results
The result they say was that in this case there was more hybridisation in the introduced Carnica queens than the introduced Amm queens

but they also say in the study
"most beekeepers declare that they keep AMC, while our preliminary studies show that most colonies belong to the native AMM "

Not sure if thats just the one bee tested from each hive or some other study, but they then have to adjust the results to compensate for this effect ?

I

[Mellifera Crofter]

Hi Jon
that's interesting but what is the mechanism by which queens can "choose " their mates
...


Bees make very rapid decisions whether or not to challenge a robber so I think mid-air choice is feasible for queens. There is also the valve fold which gives her choice at the actual moment. There has been talk (loose talk?) of different types flying at different heights.
...

I haven't yet watched or read any of the links, but I've read your posts, so apologies for maybe misunderstanding what you're talking about - but regards to choice on mating flights, Jürgen Tautz, in his book, The Buzz about Bees (a book I enjoyed reading and is easy to understand) thinks that the workers that accompany the virgin queen might perhaps play an active role in chasing away undesirable drones during the mating flight. (p.131 - The Buzz about Bees). He describes how drones are chased away from a virgin queen placed outside the hive. He says,
The aim of the worker bees is not clear, nor is it known whether this behaviour is an exception, or the rule. Nevertheless, it would appear that workers closely associated with the queen allow some drones access to her, and others not.
Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

That's a very well made point Kitta
If related drones from her hive accompany her
That makes complete sense to me as a selection mechanism
Also why drones would accompany the queen and the avoidance of inbreeding
And why mating takes place at the DCA and not the fly lanes on the route
I could accept suitor drones best not tangle with her brothers
Thank you very much I have learned something or made it up not sure which :)

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[The Drone Ranger]

I don't think that theory holds water :)

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[Mellifera Crofter]

Which theory is that, DR? Jürgen Tautz's suggestion that workers accompanying the queen might chase away undesirable drones? Perhaps it doesn't hold water. I don't think he is too sure about that either - just a possibility based on his observation of the workers' behaviour when the queen is placed outside the hive.

Or do you also doubt that the virgin queen is accompanied by a small entourage of workers? (He suggests about 20 workers, depending on the size of the colony.) Or is that a well-known fact? Jon might know.

I did not understand what you meant in your previous post regarding drones accompanying the queen - so I've been pondering about that (but perhaps I should make time now to watch the video!).

Kitta

[Jon]

Jon might know.

What I have seen involves several hundred workers with the queen.
I think there is a great deal still to find out about queen mating.
Those rfid transmitters will form the basis of some interesting experiments re queen mating in the future.

[The Drone Ranger]

Or do you also doubt that the virgin queen is accompanied by a small entourage of workers? (He suggests about 20 workers, depending on the size of the colony.) Or is that a well-known fact? Jon might know.

I did not understand what you meant in your previous post regarding drones accompanying the queen - so I've been pondering about that (but perhaps I should make time now to watch the video!).

Kitta

Hi Kitta

No I'm pretty sure that Tautz is on to something there
There is always a big fuss when queens pop out for flights

I was only just stretching the point to say that the queen might leave home with an entourage of burly brothers who would act as chaperones
Just a flight of fancy :)

The things that puzzle me are mainly
Why do queens not mate in fly lanes on the way to DCA's (or do they)
How can there be a mechanism for her to mate with selected drones
Some experts claim mating maximises out crossing others say that Amm select Amm mates
Does Apiary Vicinity Mating exist and does it defy a fundamental mating principle of the honey bee
Can claims of pure mating for Amm in hybridised areas be correct
If there is a mate selection process why would operate differently for Amm and not be universal

Sorry for introducing confusion to your valuable information from Jurgen Tautz which was genuinely news to me
Apologies
DR

[Mellifera Crofter]

What I have seen involves several hundred workers with the queen. ...

Thanks Jon - with such a huge entourage the workers may well be able to protect the queen from undesirable drones.


...I was only just stretching the point to say that the queen might leave home with an entourage of burly brothers who would act as chaperones
Just a flight of fancy :) ...

Oh! I like flights of fancy. The image is now firmly lodged in my brain.

Kitta

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Kitta
The video basically says drones go to the nearest DCA and stay as long as possible
Queens stay out far shorter time but don't go to the nearest DCA
Probably this gives the most chance of unrelated drones and avoids inbreeding

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[Mellifera Crofter]

Thanks DR! The summing-up is helpful - but I will make time to watch it as well.
Kitta

[Wmfd]

Thanks for this, well worth a watch - absolutely fascinating, and amazing how long research has been going on.

Interesting that they don't really know what happens in flat areas - given they don't seem to have DCA's but queens still get mated!

David

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks for this, well worth a watch - absolutely fascinating, and amazing how long research has been going on.

Interesting that they don't really know what happens in flat areas - given they don't seem to have DCA's but queens still get mated!

David
Hi Wmfd
Check this out if you have 50 min to spare (about varroa)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks for this, well worth a watch - absolutely fascinating, and amazing how long research has been going on.

Interesting that they don't really know what happens in flat areas - given they don't seem to have DCA's but queens still get mated!

David
Yes Wmfd that is a bit of a puzzle
About 20 mins into this video the professor talks about flat areas and also what weather conditions would be helpful in finding possible drone congregation areas
She also says a simple check is throwing stones into the air the drones follow them
Anything with a pulse (or even without one) it would seem


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI26DLS2CyM

[gavin]

Cracking talk, that one. Look out for stones falling out of the air all round the Ochil hills next year.

All sorts of snippets - drones heading out to the lowest point on the horizon and so missing some nearby DCAs; no workers accompanying drones (and queens presumably) at DCAs. They don't catch 'em in their traps. One of the best husband-wife squabbles is described in there (23 min). 240 colonies contribute drones to a single DCA in their environment.

I knew a surprising number of the people there. The first questioner was the very same Chris Slade mentioned yesterday.

Brilliant to get to see these talks. Also to be able to skip over the basic stuff at the beginning, and go back and hear some bits for a second time.

I'm sitting here reading that book that wasn't quite published when she gave the lecture.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Gavin
I think it was £31 on Amazon but £25 on Northern Bee Books

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[gavin]

Something like that. The one I was sent was slighty bashed in a way that didn't happen while inside the padded envelope, but as I really need to read the book I decided not to send it back. Presumably that copy protected the nicer ones underneath for you lot.

[Wmfd]

Thanks Drone Ranger, I had a day off work on Monday and whilst ironing (yes, the rock and roll lifestyle) indulged in this one, the latest one on honey marketing and also Norman Carreck talking about the thinking beekeeper.

Very interesting how the mites take up the scent of the bees to hide themselves, even whilst dead!

Clearly it's good enough to make them a problem, but I wonder how effective it really is, and whether there are ways to either help the bees shift the odds?


Next summer's fun, wandering around throwing stones in the air!

David

[The Drone Ranger]

Or buy one of those Drone remote controlled camera things
http://cpc.farnell.com/radio-controlled-drones-quadcopters

[Wmfd]

They look like fun, pop a lure on one and trail it around. The cameras even give a chance to count drones.

Not quite as relaxing as wandering around with a pocket of pebbles, but probably more efficient and effective.

[prakel]

....so here's an early reference

...and another:


She may take one or more oientation flights to mark the location of her hive within three to five days after she has emerged from her cell and mating sometimes occus on these flights.

'Queen Rearing' by Laidlaw & Eckert 1950