Chalkbrood can we be rid of it

[The Drone Ranger]

https://uwaterloo.ca/safety-office/sites/ca.safety-office/files/uploads/files/guide-selection-use-of-disinfectants.pdf

This is a list of possible candidates to kill pathogens etc
I started looking in response to this stuff on Paynes site
http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/other-general-protection/bee-safe/

That one is based on iodine

If you read through the first article though you can see how few possibles there are to treat spores
Worse than that though is how spores in presence of biological material are even less easy to deal with
I assume that will apply to propolis and wax and old combs etc

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hydrogen-peroxide-11-99-including-delivery/dp/B00TYZSFQS/ref=pd_sim_229_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=095EKVHBJZ3PZFYY6E5T
Hydrogen peroxide might work ?

Has anybody else any ideas

I also read that high acidic concentrations might work
Eric McArthur suggested heavy feeding (presumably to get all the mummies thrown out)
in combination with formic acid treatment ( lowering the PH in the hive)

You can just burn the combs but a lot of beekeepers are uncomfortable with that solution being too drastic

[busybeephilip]

Tricky one this, some persons suggest feeding thin syrup containing thymol, it might go away but as Arny says "I'll be back"

I believe that the consensus is that some bees are more genetically susceptible to chalkbrood and the usual recommendation is to requeen. I have seen some really bad chalk many years ago when i first started bees when there were plenty of black ones about and they were forever suffering from accarine. (Happy memories of Frow mixture and Folbex fumes) so promoting the change to yellow bees by the dept of agriculture

That stage seems to have passed, perhaps due to integration of yellow/black genetics, and it is now very rare that one would see accarine in northern ireland, although I still believe there are still many cases in southern ireland, however saying this I did get a case after 15-20 od years of total absence last year when i started changing over to native derived blacks - could be just coincidence. There is a lot of crawlers this year too, could be the bad summer weather or just bad genetics but it does not help with honey production. As for chalk, I observed one box of dark bees with this seasons queen that are now riddled with it - must get a picture

There is also ancient reports that the chalkbrood fungus produces something that inhibits AFB sporulation.

saying that my experience years ago with new zealand bees (yellow) is that they suffer badly from chalk/accarine and seldom get into their second year in our climate. So race could be a factor in how some bees are more susceptible that others.


conclusion for chalkbrood --- requeen to more resistant line, backtrack and stop breeding from that line

[mbc]

conclusion for chalkbrood --- requeen to more resistant line,

I agree with that

[The Drone Ranger]

Ok I can see that would be a very good start
Make sure we only select queens who's larva are not prone to chalk
That might also mean more hygenic and that cant be a bad thing


Can combs that have had chalk mummies ever be sterilised or should they be burned ?

[The Drone Ranger]

There is also ancient reports that the chalkbrood fungus produces something that inhibits AFB sporulation.





Dead bee larva? :)

Just kidding
Somebody mentioned this I think it was Emma in another thread

[Jon]

Fumigation of old comb with acetic acid should kill chalkbrood spores.

[mbc]

Ive always taken the view that the spores are endemic and so there's little point in sterilisation, the bees do a good job of cleaning it up themselves if they aren't prone to it.

[Jon]

I try and fumigate any brood comb not in use or from dead outs with acetic acid fumes over winter. It should kill nosema spores, chalk brood spores, wax moth and possibly EFB. Not 100% sure about EFB and it's not effective against AFB spores.

[The Drone Ranger]

following up on your selecting resistant bees I found this
The whole thing is available at the link below I just clipped this bit as relevant

0.1. Breeding for resistance

Gilliam et al., (1983) and Taber (1986) demonstrated that it is possible to select and breed honey bees for resistance to chalkbrood disease. Spivak and Reuter (2001) demonstrated that colonies selected for rapid removal of freeze-killed brood showed resistance to chalkbrood in field experiments. Palacio et al. (2000) observed that hygienic colonies had a lower frequency of brood diseases including chalkbrood. Commercial queen breeders in the US and Denmark have found that if they have “zero-tolerance” for chalkbrood; i.e. they never raise queens from a colony that has had clinical symptoms of chalkbrood and they simultaneously select for rapid hygienic behaviour then they get rather chalkbrood resistant lines (Spivak and Jensen, unpublished).


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3816652/

I wonder if Acetic acid can destroy fungal spores or deactivate them as it does for nosema ?
It may well work but I just thought there might be some experimental evidence somewhere online

[Jon]

We were discussing this on the facebook forum recently. There is very little published stuff about acetic acid fumigation but it has been done since the 1950s. Bailey was one of the first to promote it as a means of cleansing old comb.

[mbc]

My own practical experience suggests it is fairly easy to breed susceptibility to chalk brood out of a population, just dont breed from queens whos colonies show any chalk, I don't see much now and if I do I mark them for requeening, simples.

[busybeephilip]

Ive always taken the view that the spores are endemic and so there's little point in sterilisation, the bees do a good job of cleaning it up themselves if they aren't prone to it.

I agree with this and have used chalk comb with no detriment to the colony

[busybeephilip]

Not 100% sure about EFB and it's not effective against AFB spores.

As EFB is non sporulating I would imagine that acetic acid fumes would kill this bacteria

[busybeephilip]

Hmm...... just to throw in another spanner, in ages past formalin was recommended for treating comb, you used to be able to buy formalin devices for fumigation greenhouses - nasty stuff, it fixes everything :)
(not recommended)

[busybeephilip]

Acetic acid is getting hard to get now and expensive - It is being used as a drug precursor by the bad boys and only a matter of time before the concentrations we need to use it at (80%) will be banned. Many chemists will not dispense it now and you may be reported to authorities if a chemist/pharmacist thinks it is to be used illegally. Even if a Pharmacist is happy you might only be allowed a 100 mls or so.

Better to use fresh foundation/comb and recycle the old comb

[The Drone Ranger]

I thought the action of acetic acid on the nosema was to fox the spores into thinking they were in a honeybee gut
They fire out the harpoon thing and thats their lot They are now deactivated/harmless

Technically I suppose one of the other acids like formic would do the same job (although a trip to A&E might follow )

Chalkbrood is a different kettle of fish because I am not sure what acetic acid would do to kill or deactivate those spores

I'm more of a slash and burn type myself Although it means a loss of brood and safest in the first half of the season when new wax is easily drawn

I would like to be able to sterilise combs

Wonder if this stuff would work (clipped from link in first post)

5.6
Peracetic Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide
Two chemical sterilants are available that contain peracetic acid plus hydrogen peroxide
(0.08 peracetic acid plus 1.0% hydrogen peroxide [no longer marketed],
0.23% peracetic acid plus 7.35% hydrogen peroxide).
The bactericidal properties of peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide have been established.
Manufacturer’s findings demonstrated that his product inactivated all microorganisms with the exception of bacterial spores within 20 minutes.
The combination of peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide has been used for disinfecting hemodialyzers (whatever they are? )

[The Drone Ranger]

with the potential a spin off that all the bees using the comb afterward would be blondes :)

[busybeephilip]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;31059
The bactericidal properties of peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide have been established.
Manufacturer’s findings demonstrated that his product inactivated all microorganisms with the exception of bacterial spores within 20 minutes.
The combination of peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide has been used for disinfecting hemodialyzers (whatever they are? )[/QUOTE]


"Domestos kills 99% of all germs" - I think thats how the quote goes, Virkon S might be stronger but I think that all this would be overkill (pun) ,

Easier to burn/melt/recycle - heating will kill any chalk/nosema spores and black comb makes good firelighters

[The Drone Ranger]

I think it was the year before last might have been further back
I had a hive with bad CB so I tried Mycostop -- waste of time
I requeened still there
I put the broodbox over a queen excluder and had any mummies fall though onto a solid floor onto a layer of hive clean
I gave them a top entrance to keep them off the contaminated floor -- still the same

So shook them into a sleeved down hive with foundation and burned the old combs and brood
That worked but nothing else seemed to
So I'm with you on the burn them front :)

[Emma]

[There is also ancient reports that the chalkbrood fungus produces something that inhibits AFB sporulation.]
Somebody mentioned this I think it was Emma in another thread

The rumour I'd heard was about EFB. Alas, as discussed before, probably just a rumour.

What I have been noticing myself this year is that more chalkbrood has coincided with fewer varroa mites. After two years with a low varroa load, I'd seen a bigger mitefall after oxalic trickle this winter, and it didn't tail off quite as cleanly as it usually does, so I was expecting numbers to build up this season. Instead - going mostly by natural mite drop, but also by a couple of bits of early-season drone culling - I've seen very few. I'd usually expect quite a dump of mites on the varroa boards after artificial swarms, as the old nests become broodless, but there have been very very few.

Has anyone else noticed this?

I'd still rather do without the chalkbrood, but it's interesting, if it is a genuine effect.

[The Drone Ranger]

Less varroa more oxalic trickle treatments ?
People know treating is easy and cheap but buying in bees is difficult and dear

I suppose if varroa enter a cell with a C/B infected larva they have had it :)

[busybeephilip]

I'm not sure if OA can stop C/B - yes it does !!

according to

A novel approach for the management of the chalkbrood disease infesting honeybee Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae) colonies in Egypt.

OA does help but thymol works better - apparently

[The Drone Ranger]

I'm not sure if OA can stop C/B - yes it does !!

according to

A novel approach for the management of the chalkbrood disease infesting honeybee Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae) colonies in Egypt.

OA does help but thymol works better - apparently

Phil you have it cracked http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16628894
Had to google that right away

Top Man! (hope it works)

Now I'm off to google ceder oil wonder if that's cedar or something different

Race the lot of you buying it all up and bottling it :)

How does the thymol or cedar oil get applied
It says thymol at a rate of 2% or cedar oil at a rate of 4%
That can't be in feed surely so is it sprayed on or evaporated through the hive
The link is just an extract can anyone access the whole thing ?

[Calluna4u]

Acetic acid is getting hard to get now and expensive - It is being used as a drug precursor by the bad boys and only a matter of time before the concentrations we need to use it at (80%) will be banned. Many chemists will not dispense it now and you may be reported to authorities if a chemist/pharmacist thinks it is to be used illegally. Even if a Pharmacist is happy you might only be allowed a 100 mls or so.

Better to use fresh foundation/comb and recycle the old comb

Tan International. A chemical and sugar supply company that works all over the UK, but based near the port at Perth.

The supply I took in recently was supplied at 1.00 per litre for glacial acetic. They will supply other concentrations too. Downside is that the do not do less than a 25 litre container.

Reckon the 1.00 is largely a handling charge for a very cheap product. Interestingly the charge 1.00 per litre for the correct concentration of formic acid, 1.00 per Kg for caustic soda, and 1.00 per kg for washing soda. The cut that last one to 50p when I pointed out it was cheaper in Tesco.

Buy enough for the association and it costs very little per beekeeper.

[The Drone Ranger]

Come on all you chaps with access to springer and the scientific papers
How was the cedar oil delivered was it in syrup ?

Hi C4u I bought glacial acetic of Ebay once thinking I would dilute it myself
It went solid in the glass bottle
I had to stand the bottle in warm water took ages to melt :)

Great prices and information

[Calluna4u]

Hi C4u I bought glacial acetic of Ebay once thinking I would dilute it myself
It went solid in the glass bottle
I had to stand the bottle in warm water took ages to melt :)



Yes. It goes solid if it gets cold. Have 4 x 25 litre containers just like that sitting here now lol. White and opaque. We just warm it and use it when we need to, a winter or early spring job.